What's a liberal?

[Renegade7]

I'm dead serious. Every time I turn around one of ya'll is blasting a liberal. The thread asking if libs are happy because certain interrogation tactics were made illegal by the US is what finally got me to start a thread like this. I'm not looking to start a war between anyone here, so please refrain yourselves from ringing other peoples neck in this thread. Thanx.

[Ghost of]

It can actually mean lots of things, and just as with the right wing, there are numerous varieties of left-of-center political 'packages.'

For instance, I encountered a MARXIST website that was in support of the war in Iraq. That's another can of worms for an article I read that I'll post later.

Classical liberals would actually be considered right-wing today.

Liberals as you see on this forum would fall in line with the Socialist, Green or Democratic party. It means left-of-center political philosophy which relies on the power of the state to effect desireable societal conditions. A focus on equality of outcome, rather than equality of opportunity.

This means lots of "social" spending on various programs. They typically go beyond mere tolerance of differences and minority groups to promotion of collective rights as a concept and celebration and institutionalization of those differences, though there are cases on the right where this occurs.

Liberals today typically embrace an internationalist mindset, seeking to reduce American sovereignty and power, not out of sinister desires, but as a method of achieving "equality" in the world itself.

Generally, liberals embrace the optimist 'noble savage' view of human nature, in that they believe human beings are blank slates who can be formed by social engineering and improvement of environment. Right-wingers generally hold to the "tragic view" of human nature, which is that humans are deeply flawed and often environmental factors or social engineering will fail to produce the results you SEEK. Unintended consequences abound from the left's social policies, as the right sees it.

Though there are lots of right-wing statists, the right is generally differentiated from left in that it embraces(relatively) open and free markets, minimal centralized government power and sovereignty of the individual. Of course, there are exceptions and as time has gone on, the center in the country has shifted so that often the left and right as manifest in Demo and Repub parties are barely distinguishable on certain issues, except in degree.

Um, get a leftist to describe the rest. I tried to be somewhat balanced, I hope no one feels I tried to do any injustice here.

[Renegade7]

That's a helluva start, Ghost. Thanxs. I'll have to reread the whole thing to fully take it in, but thank you just the same.

[Renegade7]

So, liberals like a strong government that takes action to help the people? Brain cells fryin, but I'm tryin.

[Thiebear]

Liberal Views:

Abortion

Gun Control

Social Programs for everyone

High Taxes for the rich... rich = 92k right now...

United Nations in charge of everything

No Death Penalty

Tax on the Internet

Public schools are fine, just give them more money (no vouchers)

other things?

[Ancalagon the Black]

Ghost has done a good job in being objective here. The only things I would add is that classical liberals would be considered more "libertarian" than "right-wing" today (the right wing is most often associated with right-fascism and cultural warfare, just as the left wing is most often associated with Marxism/totalitarianism and class warfare).

Here's a good place to start reading (it'll also fill you in on terms such as "conservative" and "libertarian" and "socialist"): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism.

[Ancalagon the Black]

Originally posted by Renegade7

So, liberals like a strong government that takes action to help the people? Brain cells fryin, but I'm tryin.

In certain respects, yes. In other respects, no. Liberals tend to want the government to stay out of things such as drugs and religion/morals.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by Renegade7

So, liberals like a strong government that takes action to help the people? Brain cells fryin, but I'm tryin.

I'd say that is a very distilled version of it. But it's important to note that it's not just a matter of government. There are social components as well. Liberals often use the term "progressive" but, and this is my biased view, it often seems the real object is simply turning all mores and convention on their head. This is the more extreme version of results, but I'd say it goes far beyond government.

But government intervention in the economy and the everyday lives of the people is a NECESSARY part of liberalism, as far as I can tell. Also, the emphasis on the Constitution's meaning AS IT WAS WRITTEN, rather than a document to be read and analyzed however we want, is a feature of the right. The living document view is almost exclusively a left-of-center notion.

The weird thing is, there's intervention from the mainstream right on the other side, such that the differences often come down to what side one takes and NOT principle.

But that's why I'm a libertarian. It would be so simple to just have a continuum like this

Total government control----------no government

But that would not exactly be useful when using terms like "left" and "right."

Personally, I think the real differences seem to be the WAY the sides argue their points. From my personal experience, liberals have a difficult time NOT using emotional imagery and appeals as well as a manichean worldview that I thought was supposed to belong to conservative/right-wing types.

BUt it's so hard, because there are LOTS of, for example, anti-war right-wingers. And they have just as many of their own reasons. But from what I glean, their reasons(except for the fringe) are based on what they believe are constitutional principles. Much, though not all, of the anti-war protestors and their reasons seemed to have been based on emotionalism and their eschatological/apocalyptic view of the world vis a vis the US foreign policy(and domestic structures) Very little seemed like sound and reasonable objections based on a strong foundation of principles.

But I'm biased

[Renegade7]

Originally posted by Thiebear

Liberal Views:

Abortion

Gun Control

Social Programs for everyone

High Taxes for the rich... rich = 92k right now...

United Nations in charge of everything

No Death Penalty

Tax on the Internet

Public schools are fine, just give them more money (no vouchers)

other things?

Abortion - I agree with abortion being legal

Gun Control- exactly what kinda deer are you going to hunt with freakin assult riffle

Social Programs for everyone - define social programs

High Taxes for the rich... rich = 92k right now... You can't ask money from people that don't have it. Tax the rich the most because, well, they have the most money

United Nations in charge of everything- um, how bout hell no?

No Death Penalty - let 'em rot in jail then put 'em to death. some people deserve it more then others, but i am aware of the fact that some innocent people have been put to death. I don't have a definet plan on what to do about that, but if a person's innocet they should be prove innocent.

Tax on the Internet - um, how bout another hell no

Public schools are fine, just give them more money (no vouchers) - public schools suck, cuz they need more money.

If I'm a liberal, do I have to follow all of these rules, or just some of them?

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black

Ghost has done a good job in being objective here. The only things I would add is that classical liberals would be considered more "libertarian" than "right-wing" today (the right wing is most often associated with right-fascism and cultural warfare, just as the left wing is most often associated with Marxism/totalitarianism and class warfare).

Here's a good place to start reading (it'll also fill you in on terms such as "conservative" and "libertarian" and "socialist"): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism.

See, I needed you to put that check on me.

I'd actually say, Ancal, that libertarians fall into a separate category AND sometimes in the right-wing. It depends on their cultural views, which vary. Some libertarians are only concerned with the power of the state but could be against homosexuality SOCIALLY. Others are more 'libertine' in that sense.

REnegade--I'd encourage you to read up as MUCH AS YOU CAN and come to your conclusions. Some stuff might be hard for you to slog through, so I will not tell you to go out and read Murray Rothbard's Man, Economy and State but what you can do is read articles and editorials and compare reasoning and logic. Also try to verify facts as much as possible as an argument, howver well-crafted, based on lies or inaccuracies is badly flawed.

Another thing to do is to challenge and rebut your own views in your head. I do this all the time and I have whole conversations in my head mapped out because I need to challenge and strengthen the reasoning behind my own views.

Don't be afraid to say you were wrong or to alter your beliefs. The rational mind is not afraid to alter its beliefs based on new evidence.

[Renegade7]

Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black

In certain respects, yes. In other respects, no. Liberals tend to want the government to stay out of things such as drugs and religion/morals.

What do you by stay out of drugs? Stay out of religion, yes I'm cool with that, but moral? What's that supposed to mean?

[chomerics]

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

It can actually mean lots of things, and just as with the right wing, there are numerous varieties of left-of-center political 'packages.'

For instance, I encountered a MARXIST website that was in support of the war in Iraq. That's another can of worms for an article I read that I'll post later.

Classical liberals would actually be considered right-wing today.

Liberals as you see on this forum would fall in line with the Socialist, Green or Democratic party. It means left-of-center political philosophy which relies on the power of the state to effect desireable societal effects. A focus on equality of outcome, rather than equality of opportunity.

This means lots of "social" spending on various programs. They typically go beyond mere tolerance of differences and minority groups to promotion of collective rights as a concept and celebration and institutionalization of those differences, though there are cases on the right where this occurs.

Liberals today typically embrace an internationalist mindset, seeking to reduce American sovereignty and power, not out of sinister desires, but as a method of achieving "equality" in the world itself.

Generally, liberals embrace the optimist 'noble savage' view of human nature, in that they believe human beings are blank slates who can be formed by social engineering and improvement of environment. Right-wingers generally hold to the "tragic view" of human nature, which is that humans are deeply flawed and often environmental factors or social engineering will fail to produce the results you SEEK. Unintended consequences abound from the left's social policies, as the right sees it.

Though there are lots of right-wing statists, the right is generally differentiated from left in that it embraces(relatively) open and free markets, minimal centralized government power and sovereignty of the individual. Of course, there are exceptions and as time has gone on, the center in the country has shifted so that often the left and right as manifest in Demo and Repub parties are barely distinguishable on certain issues, except in degree.

Um, get a leftist to describe the rest. I tried to be somewhat balanced, I hope no one feels I tried to do any injustice here.

Ghost, actually a pretty good post from you.

IMO, the views of the liberals come out of the following.

Socail programs for fundamental rights. They believe education should be funded by the government because every American has the right for education. Health care is the same. There for workers rights, not corporate rights (although this has become a perverse use in itself). They used to believe in a larger government with control of many different social issues, but their position I feel has shifted to a more centrist view over the past 20-30 years.

The fundamental differences between the liberal and republican of now (not the pre-Regan era republican) is abortion and big business.

On abortion, liberals that a females body is their right to choose what to do with it and a republicans view is that abortion is morally wrong. The liberal feels the government should stay out of a citizens life and let them choose to run it as they see fit. A repub licans view is that all people can be sinister in their beliefs and they need to put control on the freedoms of individual rights. This isn't an old republican view, but more of a neo-conservative view.

It is the opposite on big business. A liberal feels that big business will do what's best for the company no matter what the consequences, where the republicans feel that big business will regulate themseves and do what is right.

In the economy, a liberal believes in more of an isolationistic point of view, but NAFTA was a Clinton bill which contradicts this belief. A republican (neo-con) believes in world wide expansion of business and feels that even the American company is operating overseas, they are still an American company, so they should not be liable for paying import taxes.

In forign policy, a liberal feels that comprimise is the best solution, more of a neutral strategy with the best solutions coming when there is something to gain for both sides.

I am not a liberal, although I do share a lot of their viewpoints. Abortion, the enviornment and big business regulation of their actions (ie stopping a Love Canal before it happens). I am also for free trade, a smaller government and less interferance from the federal government concerning basic human rights.

My beliefs.

[Renegade7]

This is all great! This helps a lot. I took your advie Ghost and looked it up, and this is what i found(looked up in dictionary.com under liberal):

1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.

2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.

3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.

4. Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.

2.

1. Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.

2. Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.

3. Not strict or literal; loose or approximate: a liberal translation.

[Ghost of]

Hmm. beware dictionaries. Sadly, many of the entries ARE(so sad) colored by political partisanship.

For instance, I've seen(in my own dictionary at home) Castro and Stalin given very dry and bland, TECHNICALLY correct, but emotionally neutral entries.

Yet Franco and others associated with the "right" are given entries that you can't help but read negative connotations into.

The same applies to certain basic definitions. I'd stick to sites that are actually into discussing political philosophies.

What I'd also do, is get a basic grip on philosophy also. One feeds into the other, and you'll feel more cemented and confident in your views(while still being open)

And hey, it's OK to change

[Renegade7]

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

Hmm. beware dictionaries. Sadly, many of the entries ARE(so sad) colored by political partisanship.

For instance, I've seen(in my own dictionary at home) Castro and Stalin given very dry and bland, TECHNICALLY correct, but emotionally neutral entries.

Yet Franco and others associated with the "right" are given entries that you can't help but read negative connotations into.

The same applies to certain basic definitions. I'd stick to sites that are actually into discussing political philosophies.

What I'd also do, is get a basic grip on philosophy also. One feeds into the other, and you'll feel more cemented and confident in your views(while still being open)

And hey, it's OK to change

Good to know, Ghost. Thanx. I'll see what I can find.

[chomerics]

Originally posted by Renegade7

Abortion - I agree with abortion being legal

Gun Control- exactly what kinda deer are you going to hunt with freakin assult riffle

Social Programs for everyone - define social programs

High Taxes for the rich... rich = 92k right now... You can't ask money from people that don't have it. Tax the rich the most because, well, they have the most money

United Nations in charge of everything- um, how bout hell no?

No Death Penalty - let 'em rot in jail then put 'em to death. some people deserve it more then others, but i am aware of the fact that some innocent people have been put to death. I don't have a definet plan on what to do about that, but if a person's innocet they should be prove innocent.

Tax on the Internet - um, how bout another hell no

Public schools are fine, just give them more money (no vouchers) - public schools suck, cuz they need more money.

If I'm a liberal, do I have to follow all of these rules, or just some of them?

That's up for you to decide. Read up on it, but the most important thing you can do is to read up on the canidates platform. There isn't a single canidate which will be for all the things you listed, most likely you'll get some that form an opinion based on some pros and cons. It doesn't matter on what you consider yourself to be, but rather how you precieve the canidates, what their strengths and weakness' are and how they fall in line with your beliefs.

BTW, IMO you look like a centrist to me, which is where the majority of Americans fall today. A combination of both liberal and conservative beliefs, as well as libertarian and authortarian beliefs (the up/down of the spectrum instead of the left/right.)

There was a link posted yesterday for a quiz, you can take it and see where it puts you an the map, but that should be by no means what the final say on your position is, but mearly a starting point.

[KDawg]

Well, according to the Ultimate Warrior in a lecture he gave at my college...

Liberals are all on the highway to hell...

I'm definately alot more conservative than I am liberal, however sometimes I find myself agreeing with the liberals on certain topics, like abortion... You can alter your views and still be a part of the whole, just means your not as far into that group as you thought you were...

[Jay Master Jay]

An American with a certain opinion.:laugh:

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by KDawg

Well, according to the Ultimate Warrior in a lecture he gave at my college...

Liberals are all on the highway to hell...

I'm definately alot more conservative than I am liberal, however sometimes I find myself agreeing with the liberals on certain topics, like abortion... You can alter your views and still be a part of the whole, just means your not as far into that group as you thought you were...

Yes, I'm on a well-known right-oriented site that has its share of social conservatives, statist fascists(who don't admit it, of course) libertarians and Burkeian conservatives.

It is quite startling when you get blasted as a libertarian on that board, even though we actually outnumber the anti-libertarians(difference between disagreement and outright hostility) because of differences in our views on the constitution and not using the power of the state to coerce people on issues that don't DIRECTLY affect the rights and safety of others(like say, porn or strip clubs)

That reminds you that you're never truly a part of the group Well, not if you're strong-minded.

[Redskinette_Vic]

Liberals are people who will fight like hell to save the {insert animal species here}, protest putting a convicted serial killer to death, then march on Washington for the right to murder their unborn child.

Just my two cents...

[Ancalagon the Black]

Originally posted by Renegade7

What do you by stay out of drugs? Stay out of religion, yes I'm cool with that, but moral? What's that supposed to mean?

Liberals are generally in favor of ending the drug war/legalizing drugs (at least "soft" drugs such as marijuana).

Morals: liberals generally (not always) believe that government cannot dictate morality, so laws should not be based upon potentially contentious moral beliefs (such as "homosexuality is wrong"), for example. They tend to be more permissive of "bad behavior" as long as others' rights aren't infringed. Of course, where that line is drawn is also a point of contention.

[Ancalagon the Black]

Originally posted by Redskinette_Vic

Liberals are people who will fight like hell to save the {insert animal species here}, protest putting a convicted serial killer to death, then march on Washington for the right to murder their unborn child.

Just my two cents...

Ouch...especially in a thread where everyone is trying to be objective.

[bulmer1]

I personally think this is a good objective thread with a good perspective on both sides one thing that I might add is liberals tend to want one federal gov't that stays out of personal matters and moral matters but supports social benefiets as stated before. A great example was Clintons push for more national health care. Right wingers tend to want more local gov't such as state gov't and believe that moral issues should be governed because our country will go downhill without the laws to keep people on good behavior. Liberals think that Right wingers invade personal privacy by the laws like that and that is the huge debate over the patriot act. It gives the gov't more freedom to "check up on people" such as phone taps and the like so Liberals think that it should be thrown out. Right wingers just see it as more protection. Just my addition to the discussion take it or leave it.

[@DCGoldPants]

This thread is really interesting. Minus one post that was out to start something nasty.....this is how people should debate here.

Then again, notice those who haven't posted an opinion yet.

Keep it up.

[phanatic]

Renegade, try this link to some great quotes in history and then pick a few to educate yourself about.

Link

A few of my personal favorites:

This is one of my favorites. From Alexander Tyler. No, he wasn't writing about the United States. This quote is well over one hundred years old. Tyler was writing about the fall of the Athenian Republic.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

"There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to runin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation of all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities." [Teddy Roosevelt in a speech before the Knights of Columbus]