Iraq - what do we do?

[du7st]

I can't bear to read most of the negative and mean threads on what's going on in Iraq. Don't really feel like getting into petty bickering when our boys are getting slaughtered but thats just me. So here's my thread.

What do we do?

Go medieval on their ass? This has been suggested by some over the past week and I didn't even consider it but maybe it's time after today. Start dropping bombs again maybe? I don't know. I just know I'd rather see a few Iraqi civilians die than our marines. Sorry Iraqi people.

Replace US troops with UN troops? Let's just say that we can get a UN force big enough for all of Iraq. Even if the majority of the UN force were really just US soldiers in UN gear, wouldn't that be better? Maybe some Iraqi wackos would be less frothing to kill men in UN uniforms then in US uniforms.

Pull out entirely? I doubt anyone really wants this but I'm having my doubts that Iraq will ever become a democracy. You have three different religious groups - how exactly are they ever going to get along? No, I'm not quite ready to consider this option yet.

Just stay the course? Maybe there is nothing we can do. Continue to police and try to build an Iraqi run police force to eventually take over. Just accept that we are gonna be losing soldiers almost every day.

So what do we do?

[Ghost of]

Du

We already have a large contingent of foreign troops. You forget that Polish, Ukrainian, Salvadoran, Italian and Spanish troops have ALL been involved in firefights and taken casualties.

Don't forget that the UN left after it's compound was bombed in Baghdad. Ya see, the people we are fighting don't respect "international institutions" or overtures to peace.

I also think that getting "medieval" can only partly work. Rest assured we're dropping bombs now when needed. I just want us to make sure our guys have all the armor and air cover they need and that if the CHOICE between losing a US servicemen or an Iraqi civilian in FALLUJAH or RAMADI comes up, that we choose to save the American. Not that there aren't any innocents in Fallujah, but the amount of those who don't tacitly approve of the attacks on our men is not that big--so really they aren't "innocent."

We can't pull out. We gave strength to the terrorists in the first place by leaving Lebanon under Reagan, leaving Somalia under Clinton as well as consistently treating the acts of war against us as law enforcement issues.

I'd have gotten behind Clinton 100 percent if after the embassy bombings we went into full-scale war. I was disappointed that we didn't.

But take heart. This Sadrite army is not the whole of Shi'ite thought in Iraq. Nor do all Sunnis yearn for Saddam. And the Kurds have not been participating in these attacks, so we have a third of the country solidly in our corner.

We just need to be tough, make sure our troops have what they need and treat our enemies mercilessly.

Most importantly, our President needs to call militant Islam what it is---the enemy of all mankind. We need to sink some funds into the Sudanese rebel groups, take a friendlier stance towards India and really embrace this global conflict.

Forsake our "allies" in the region who don't stop foreign fighters from coming over or tolerate bigoted or oppresive behavior in their homelands.

Get tough on the mullahs in Iran too.

[tex]

1) We gear up the draft.

2) We gear up our weapons factories.

3) We fill the strategic oil reserve.

4) We prepare the homeland for the tough times ahead.

5) We get mad dog mean and kick some butt.

[Hooper]

You know, it would have been nice to come up with a clear post-war plan before we went in. We didn't and now our troops are paying the price.

We obviously can't leave. I don't know, maybe we should just admit we ****ed up royally, and are open to suggestions.

[Fred Jones]

Tex, give it a little more time before we Nuke em.

First, according to the Republicans they have done nothing wrong and admit as much.

Second, I don't have an answer concerning Iraq. I am not worried, however, that I don't have the answers because so far the administration doesn't have any valid plans either.

[Hooper]

As of July 2003.

Sources: CIA World Factbook and Amnesty International.

Total Deaths in Iraq War: 10,800

Innocent civilians killed in Iraq war: 6,000

Children: 2442

Innocent civilians killed on 9/11: 2,998

Children: 10

Number of hours George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Pearle a

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by Fred Jones

Tex, give it a little more time before we Nuke em.

First, according to the Republicans they have done nothing wrong and admit as much.

Second, I don't have an answer concerning Iraq. I am not worried, however, that I don't have the answers because so far the administration doesn't have any valid plans either.

Tex didn't say one word about nuking anyone.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by Hooper

As of July 2003.

Sources: CIA World Factbook and Amnesty International.

Total Deaths in Iraq War: 10,800

Innocent civilians killed in Iraq war: 6,000

Children: 2442

Innocent civilians killed on 9/11: 2,998

Children: 10

Number of hours George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Pearle a

Spamming multiple threads with this?

Are you attempting to draw some sort of moral equivalence between 9/11 and this war?

If so, you'd have to follow that line of thinking to its conclusion. No attack could ever justify a military action that MIGHT kill civilians. FDR had how long in the service when he was President?

How many civilians died each day in WW II, let alone over the course of the whole war. Do you know how many people the Allies killed? Do you know how long it STILL took for the Allies to win the war?

But let me guess that was "different" right?

Posts like that don't really do much except prove that you suffer from some psychological issues.

Hey Hooper, care to post how many Serbians we killed over Kosovo, how many have been expelled since the ALbanians have started ethnically cleansing the area, how many churches have been burned down and how many slaves the KLA has sold and how much money they've gotten from Bin Laden associates?

And then post the combined combat time of the previous administration's defense and state officials.

I notice you left off Colin Powell.

[Renegade7]

Leave when the deadline says so. We did our part. We freed them and tried to stabilize the country. They don't want us there so I'm not pressed to stay there and be friends. Hell, you can forget the friends thing. They messed that about a long time ago. They were trying to kill us while in THEIR country. That's the only reason I'm against blowing that entire country to dust. Should they dare come after us, in America... well, fill in the blank if you wish.

[Fred Jones]

Ren,

I wish it was that easy. If we simply pull out we lose big time in the eyes of the terrorists, Iraq people and the Middle East in general. All these peoples will claim victory and we will look like we failed to the rest of the world.

[Renegade7]

Originally posted by Fred Jones

Ren,

I wish it was that easy. If we simply pull out we lose big time in the eyes of the terrorists, Iraq people and the Middle East in general. All these peoples will claim victory and we will look like we failed to the rest of the world.

I know we can't leave now, hence why I said we should leave once the deadline was up. But if we give up power to the Iraqi government when we're supposed to on June 1st, why do we have to stay? Isn't it there problem after that, seeing that it's their country? I don't feel that we failed the world if we say we were going to liberate Iraq and give up power on June 1st. After the deadline, I just don't see why we have to stay.

[Ghost of]

Renegade

We may not actively patrol after June 30th but we'll be around.

Why? because we're the only ones who can adequately deal with some of these scumbags AND some of them are the kind we should be itching to kill and round up. You should try to take out as many of the foreign terrorists as you can.

The internal divisions are up for them to monitor.

[Fred Jones]

I agree, I wish we could leave post June 1. Unfortunately, the US is the only thing bringing some semblance of order to the country. Yes, lots of stuff going on now, but it would be far worse if we simply left. Nation building takes years, and if we want it to work correctly we are going to have to stay. We are going to have to supply security to the new government.

[Hooper]

How dare you compare the invasion of Iraq to World War II or any other war for that matter. Our president sold this war to the American people and the world (well, at least those who fell for it) on the fact that Iraq was an imminent threat to our well-being because they were harboring Weapons Mass of Destruction. That is a FACT. There is no way in hell the American public -- even the most ardent Bush supporters, my friend -- would have backed this "war" if the Bush administration hadn't exaggerated and manipulated the truth about WMD's and simply said that we had to invade Iraq to free the Iraqi people from Saddamm's rule. But now, after no weapons have been found, we're suddenly there for that very reason. I mean, give me a ****in' break! Hundreds of troops have given their lives and continue to do so because they thought they were avenging 9/11 and ridding the world of terrorists -- something our commander and chief did a damn good job of selling them. Saddamm and the Iraqi people had NOTHING to do with 9/11 -- another fact. I mean, did we attack, I don't know, Canada, after Pearl Harbor? And the more innocent civilians we kill in Iraq for -- um, why are we there again? -- the more hatred and terrorists we breed. This war is a disaster. A tragedy. And it's just going to get worse. Mission accomplished my ass.

[Ghost of]

Hooper

Your posts are full of emotionalism, distortions and venom. You're also a fool if you think we're the ones breeding the terrorists. These same a-holes were being bred in huge numbers before the US stepped foot in Afghanistan, hell before it was involved in the Gulf War.

You're also full of facts that are NOT facts.

Bring it down a notch and discuss it rationally. Except you haven't done that since you registered.

[Fred Jones]

Hoop, valid points, but what do we do now? I am not asking how we got here, but how do we get out? What should Bush or Kerry (if elected) do? I believe that was the point of the thread.

[Renegade7]

Damn. Then I believe that we are just going to have to do what we said we were going to do. I may not like it, but its our word. And to my, someone's word is the only thing someone has in the end. If they're word means nothing, then that's what they will have in the end. Nothing. Stay the course, becuase now that we started this mess, we're going to have to deal with the consequences. All in all, the more terrorist we bag, the better.

[Ghost of]

And Hoop before you break out the indignant "how dare you?" how about you back off of diverting threads from their original topic until that topic has been at least explored a bit more.

And you're the one trying to draw moral equivalence between 9/11 and Iraq. Well, no matter how you slice it, the US isn't killing good guys there, so I'm not sure what it is you're whining about regarding the morality of it.

Also, you can shove your feigned disgust at the combat experience of the people you named(while omitting Powell) because I don't see you making a big deal out of what's happening in Kosovo, and that was our doing and I bet you don't even know what's going on there.

Plus, you didn't actually refute anything I said, you just launched into talking points yet AGAIN.

[Commander PK]

Originally posted by tex

1) We gear up the draft.

2) We gear up our weapons factories.

3) We fill the strategic oil reserve.

4) We prepare the homeland for the tough times ahead.

5) We get mad dog mean and kick some butt.

WOW..........man I like this guy!

[Commander PK]

This cleric, al sadr is a cancer. We need to eliminate him. He is responsible for most all of the resistance in Fallujah. A nice strategically placed bunker buster should do the job. He says he wants to die a martyr, lets grant him his wish. He is an obstacle to Iraq's future.

[thew]

Just stay the course? Maybe there is nothing we can do. Continue to police and try to build an Iraqi run police force to eventually take over. Just accept that we are gonna be losing soldiers almost every day.

I don't think we can do too much. I think we're commited. Pull out to early and we basically hand a forward base and the worlds second largest oil reserves to Al Quada or a ****e Theocracy to rival Iran all the while our kurd allies get crushed..

First plan was to garison our troups into protected bunkers so as to limit American casualties.. But then the insurgents started blowing up the police and the iraqi peope. And the Iraqi people were pissed as us for not protecting them....

We just have to do it... It totally sucks..

[Chopper Dave]

Originally posted by tex

1) We gear up the draft.

2) We gear up our weapons factories.

3) We fill the strategic oil reserve.

4) We prepare the homeland for the tough times ahead.

5) We get mad dog mean and kick some butt.

Not to be too Vietnam-esque, but I'm not dying in a war I don't f*cking believe in. Bringing back the draft would be a disaster. We'd have a "war" on our hands right here in the is country. People are different these days. My dad was about my age during Vietnam (younger than me in the beginning, older than me at the end), and I guarantee you that if his number came up, he would have either avoided it peacefully or begrudgingly gone. Nowadays, and I speak for people my age as a whole, we'd rather die fighting the draft committee than die in Iraq. I know that I'd put up a hell of a fight. Multiply that by a couple of million and you've got a youth rebellion. Not only would the draft not work today, but it would be more dangerous to national security than the "threat" it would be used to defeat.

The point is, the Administration's reasoning for going to war was sketchy even if you DID believe their original "evidence." Even if Iraq did have WMD, no immediate threat existed, at least to our knowledge. All out invasion was barely supported. Now that the evidence appears to be false, the government is in a real jam. They're stuck in a sh*t-storm. Soldiers and civilians are dying left and right, and even Bush's usual supporters are starting to ask why. He's digging himself into a hole. The absolute WORST thing he could do is bring back the draft. Forget re-election, he'd be lucky to escape DC with his head.

[Sarge]

Originally posted by DCogan1820 saved my baby

Not to be too Vietnam-esque, but I'm not dying in a war I don't f*cking believe in. Bringing back the draft would be a disaster. We'd have a "war" on our hands right here in the is country. People are different these days. My dad was about my age during Vietnam (younger than me in the beginning, older than me at the end), and I guarantee you that if his number came up, he would have either avoided it peacefully or begrudgingly gone. Nowadays, and I speak for people my age as a whole, we'd rather die fighting the draft committee than die in Iraq. I know that I'd put up a hell of a fight. Multiply that by a couple of million and you've got a youth rebellion. Not only would the draft not work today, but it would be more dangerous to national security than the "threat" it would be used to defeat.

Then you don't deserve to live in my country. Feel free to get the hell out. Part of living in a free country that gives you all you have means you, just like generations before you, step up when necessary.

[Commander PK]

Originally posted by DCogan1820 saved my baby

Not to be too Vietnam-esque, but I'm not dying in a war I don't f*cking believe in. Bringing back the draft would be a disaster. We'd have a "war" on our hands right here in the is country. People are different these days. My dad was about my age during Vietnam (younger than me in the beginning, older than me at the end), and I guarantee you that if his number came up, he would have either avoided it peacefully or begrudgingly gone. Nowadays, and I speak for people my age as a whole, we'd rather die fighting the draft committee than die in Iraq. I know that I'd put up a hell of a fight. Multiply that by a couple of million and you've got a youth rebellion. Not only would the draft not work today, but it would be more dangerous to national security than the "threat" it would be used to defeat.

The point is, the Administration's reasoning for going to war was sketchy even if you DID believe their original "evidence." Even if Iraq did have WMD, no immediate threat existed, at least to our knowledge. All out invasion was barely supported. Now that the evidence appears to be false, the government is in a real jam. They're stuck in a sh*t-storm. Soldiers and civilians are dying left and right, and even Bush's usual supporters are starting to ask why. He's digging himself into a hole. The absolute WORST thing he could do is bring back the draft. Forget re-election, he'd be lucky to escape DC with his head.

:hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

The amount of anger I felt well up after reading this post is indescribable. Your assessement of this whole situation is WAY off. You represent most people your age? Ha! Most of the soldiers in Iraq fighting right now are only a few years older than you! "All out invasion was barely supported?" Polls still show that regardless of what is going on in Iraq right now, most Americans believe invading Iraq was the right thing to do. "Bush's usual supporters are starting to ask why" Who? When? "People are different these days." Yup, many wouldn't get off their lazy a**es to fight for anything. You and many people in this country want all the priviledges that come from living here, but you won't pay any price for it!

[Commander PK]

Originally posted by Sarge

Then you don't deserve to live in my country. Feel free to get the hell out. Part of living in a free country that gives you all you have means you, just like generations before you, step up when necessary.

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy