Game Day Thread ~ The Commanders @ The Seachickens!

[Drock_VB]

I liked Rivera years ago when his name was up in the air for a HC job while in NY.  He seems like a great guy and is well respected,  but I think it’s time to move on .  He has a  QB now and it’s the same ole .500 team.  

[Conn]

On 11/13/2023 at 11:29 AM, Llevron said:

I don't know those teams as well as I know this one so its hard for me to argue against your point here. But suffice to say I know it happens. I'm not even arguing against it happening here. I just don't see the benefit yet in rolling the dice because people don't like EB. Realistically, EB is done regardless because if the ownership is smart they will hire someone else to make the decision and someone else is always going to come with a preference and connections. The chance that person keeps anything in place is low.

 

Agreed, regardless of what you or I think (and your post here is well-argued even though I disagree with you) it's unlikely it matters. Much higher chance at a truly clean slate. Which I'm happy with, but I understand you being hesitant to deviate at all from the situation Howell seems to be thriving in. We just disagree on how much of that is Howell overcoming what EB is doing vs. how much is it EB actively helping Howell develop. I'm on record saying that while it's high risk/high reward, the best thing EB is doing for Howell (even if I disagree with the way he's doing it) is jamming two season's worth of passing reps and defensive looks into the kid's head. He's either gonna sink or swim that way, and to Howell's credit--he's swimming. 

 

On 11/13/2023 at 11:29 AM, Llevron said:

I did take the time to look up how the OC in Miami compared to this situation for my own personal edification and I don't see how the situations compare at all. If anything it helps argue patience with EB. I will add detail if asked or where it is comparable. But the easy point is that Tua really had no OC.... until he did and he looked good. Chan Gailey - his first OC - just up and quit. Tua looked like a backup. The next OC was OC by committee. He had two of them. Two guys shared the role....how dysfunctional is that? Tua again looked nothing like his 2021/2022 form. Finally they hired Frank Smith and stuff started to look better....people actually thought Tua was looking like a franchise QB. Until that point he was largely looked at as a guy who would be a backup. Not at all like Sam Howell this season. Its not the same at all. But to add, Tua looked even better in his second year in that system. Continuity is important when these dudes have 3 seconds to make decisions that millions of people are going to criticize for years after. That **** is measured and it means something to me if no one else. 

 

This is fair, and part of the reason I said I believe Herbert is the best comparison in this situation. He was almost immediately a stud as a rookie--22 TD vs 6 INT or something in his first 11 games, I think it was. But it was eventually clear he wasn't being set up to succeed, and Kellen Moore was brought in. Staley seems to be the real problem there, so it still might not save that regime. But the point is that an obviously talented and productive QB who could handle the weight of the entire offense was seen as not being served well by his OC. So it can happen where good QB play is not always tied to the reputation of the OC, and the young guy isn't ruined by trying to upgrade for him. 

 

On 11/13/2023 at 11:29 AM, Llevron said:

It strikes me as very repetitive and not helpful to the discussion that people, who for whatever reason but usually wrongly, don't like the offense we are running make it read so personal when we have this friendly debate over sports. I'm not sure his age matters. But if you want to argue it does, then I would argue that Andy Reid might start next season as the oldest HC. The amount of Superbowls won on that list alone should tell you something about discounting them because of age lol. 

 

A lot of that stuff quoted above I think are pointless talking points that you think help make your point. I think they are silly honestly. I would much rather argue his play calls than his interpersonal skills and networking ability. 

 

I don't think worrying about whether EB can put together a top NFL coaching staff and manage it, when you have pointed out he's still learning the playcalling part of his job as a coordinator, is making it "personal". At least I didn't intend it to come across that way. Communication skills, leadership ability, and networking ability aren't just soft skills in this league, and it isn't an indictment on the man's character or personality to question whether he has these skills. What would his staff look like? He has failed to be hired as a HC almost 15 times. Maybe it's just lazy old white billionaires not liking how he comes across to them. But maybe it's also that he doesn't have an impressive potential staff on speed dial to build out his meeting rooms. HC candidates bring a list of their guys with them into interviews. They have agreements lined up for many of the important coaching positions on their staffs before they ever walk into their interviews, and connections with people to pursue for the other spots.

 

It's a legitimate worry, not pointless talking points. I loved how Dan Campbell and Brian Daboll built their coaching staffs out with the best guys they could find--often guys they had never even worked with before, the opposite of nepotism--and those dudes were willing to come work for them! I would want to hear EB's plan for that staff if I were a GM thinking about HC options, is my only point. He can't just be handed the job because Howell is playing well, he has to compete with all the other candidates who have to present their plans for the football organization. 

 

I know you aren't saying EB should be HC necessarily, I've seen you argue he shouldn't be handed the job in other posts. I'm simply explaining why my "talking points" about putting together an elite staff are a legitimate issue to talk about, not simply throwing trash in EB's direction. 

 

On 11/13/2023 at 11:29 AM, Llevron said:

I think you are dismissing a lot of issues on this team to pin a unfair portion of the blame on Bienemy. He should take a lot of blame for how things are going right now for sure. But in the next two paragraphs you give Sam credit for making do with how things are going. Its just not fair to blame a guy for everything going wrong and give him no credit for what is going right. Past that its asinine if your goal is evaluation. We don't know EBs role in benching the under preforming OL. We don't even know his role in the run game if we are honest. We have a Offensive Run Game Coordinator lol. We could choose to say that EB throws it so much cause he doesn't have control over the run game like wants. We just don't know what's happening really. To say he is rigid and stubborn regardless of strength is just silly. You don't know any of that for sure. 

 

Prove to me his rigidity. I don't believe you. I will be happy to change my argument on this from today forward if you prove it. I just don't think you can. 

 

I agree, the deck has been stacked against this offense with the OL (and arguably TE) personnel especially. I don't know how much of the OL guys we brought in were because of EB, or not. That isn't even part of my argument against EB because I just truly don't know. Maybe he hated those guys, who knows.

 

The rigidity I'm talking about is extremely apparent to me. It took him over 6 weeks of watching his QB get killed behind a slow-developing passing attack to adjust. Now, we're seeing a little more timely running, lots more quick passing and the birth of an actually effective screen game. I'm happy about that, it's an A+ adjustment to the weak OL. But it's also an obvious one that people were calling for in the Gameday Thread week 1! And it took far too long to make that adjustment. Again, I'm not talking personnel here. Maybe Rivera was forcing the Gates starts. This is purely playcalling, gameplanning, play sequencing. I don't like how long it took EB to adjust to what wasn't working, and how obvious and overwhelmingly effective the changes he needed to make were. I don't like when fans on a message board peg and solve a unit's problems before the coordinator does. 

 

I think you make a good point that we don't really know what's happening behind the scenes, and I would do better to keep that in mind. But I feel pretty confident that EB has most of the control on that side of the ball (a lot was made of that when he was hired, he's Assistant HC, Rivera seems fairly checked out) and I feel pretty confident that he is installing and calling all of the plays. So he has to wear the criticism for not doing what he's doing now, over a month ago. I would have questions about that if I were interviewing him to keep his current gig, never mind the HC gig. 

 

On 11/13/2023 at 11:29 AM, Llevron said:

I think ultimately Bieniemy wont be here and Sam will just have to deal with it. But it seems short sighted to me to put him in that situation unnecessarily when he is being so successful. I am excited to see who we will be able to attract with him and what we have to look forward here. I doubt Bienemiy will be the top of that list in all honesty. How could he be unless they just start SMOKING defenses these last few weeks?

 

Agreed, again. 

 

On 11/13/2023 at 11:29 AM, Llevron said:

Hopefully my tone in this post doesn't come off too critical of you or your ideas. I just dont see how they are well founded in fact. I think we agree for the most part at the end of the day. How we get there is the fun part tho. Pls dont think im a jerk i dont intend to be. 

 

Not at all, it was a great post and I enjoy the conversation. You're a good poster reacting to someone who voices opinions pretty strongly (me). Not offended at all, thank you for engaging with my post. Even if you still disagree, I hope you understand where I'm coming from a little better now. Because I really try to be a well-informed and non-reactionary poster (outside the gameday thread lol) when I slap these paragraphs down on here, even if I'm being critical.

 

 @Llevron 

 

[kfrankie]

On 11/12/2023 at 7:44 PM, Jabbyrwock said:

 

Youre beggin for a rick roll...

 

I was hoping for an Irish seven toed salute, but i'll take a rick roll...