Wow! No "Champ sucks" thread!

[Lavarleap56]

Champ had a good game but i still know he is not worth the money he wants . I would like Champ to be here next season if he brings his unrealistic salary demands down but if him staying handcuffing the F.O. so we are unable to revamp the d-line then good bye. Champ isnt going to be playing in washington next year so we will find out what is more important a d-line or one good corner.

[CBMGreatOne]

Gamebreaker is missing the point entirely.

Bailey had a very good game today. We were also playing a 4-8 team. We are also totally out of the playoff hunt.

How big was the deal that Champ turned down earlier this year?

Was it a 17 million dollar signing bonus, or am I making this up?

In any case, I know it was huge money with a huge bonus whatever the exact figures were.

Since he was too good to accept that deal, we judge him based on the fact that he is an athlete who fancies himself "too good to accept that deal."

That being said, while NO ONE at ANY TIME will tell you that he doesn't have exceptional coverage skills, he has not been a dominant playmaker for us the way that Arrington has.

Please note that were he already under a reasonable contract, scratch that, any contract, then we wouldn't be holding him to the standard that we are, but he isn't.

Couple that with the fact that he has been the defender whose assignment was exploited most notably, when it counted, to surrender the fourth quarter leads we've had no fewer than two of the previous three weeks, and you have a recipe for discontentment among the fans of the Washington Redskins.

It would be nice not to consider salary when judging the performance of our players, but it's STUPID to do so. Your whole argument completely ignores that fact.

I WANT Bailey back here next year. I would even pay him good money, really good money, if I were running the show. But Champ not only wants great money, he turned down great money for hopes of even greater money.

I just hope he realizes that the way he played this year, he'd be d@mn lucky if we even offered him that deal again.

Because as it stands, I don't even know if that is money well spent.

If it makes you feel good to say that others aren't real fans and just want to see their players fail so they can prove they're overrated, then go right ahead and do it. You can live in a fantasy world where that might actually be true if that's what you want, it's your perrogative.

[Skins26]

Gamebreaker,

I will start setting realistic goals for him when he starts setting realistic goals in terms of his contract.

What I mean is we wouldnt expect this much from him if before the season he didnt ask to be paid the highest defensive player, and say he was the best CB in the league. By asking for the money that he did he is setting those standards in which we judge him by for himself.

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by CBMGreatOne

If it makes you feel good to say that others aren't real fans and just want to see their players fail so they can prove they're overrated, then go right ahead and do it. You can live in a fantasy world where that might actually be true if that's what you want, it's your perrogative.

Ok. I live in a fantasy world because I've noticed other fans completely ignore the lack of pass rush and his injuries, and judge his play as if neither of those facts matter. That is not realistic, and that is not football. No cornerback, no matter how good, is going to play "lights out" under those conditions. And even if those issues weren't a factor, he still couldn't go every game without give up completions. What those other fans believe is pure fantasy. Not even Deion, IN HIS PRIME, could play up to the expectations set by unrealistic fans with the type of pass rush we have. What part of that is fantasy? That I don't feel the need to bash a player if his shoelace is untied, just because he didn't sign a contract?

Guess what else is fantasy? The assumption that Champ wants more than a 18 million signing bonus. His agent and he NEVER made a counter offer, so everyone assumes he wants more money than was offered.

Fellas, it just ain't that simple. There is more important parts to a NFL contract than the amount of years and a signing bonus. All we know is how much was offered, and not many details from there. It isn't normal for a player, who is going to refuse a contract, to not do so for a weekor two. His agent, Reale, said that many parts of the contract offered wasn't in Champ's best benefit, and also said it was extremely backloaded. The Skins denied it, but who can we trust? You can either take a side, and assume you know what you're talking about or actually be objective about it and let it play itself out.

Truth be told, I'm not a fan of Champ Bailey. I was defending Fred Smoot last season when an overwhelming majority of you wanted to trade him. Now most of you act like you have his profile tattooed on your @$$. I just think we shouldn't make up our mind about a player before we know all the facts, WHICH we don't. This attitude that people says he has, it's just him, it's the way he is. I've noticed his laid-back, carefree attitude ever since he's been a pro. Last season I saw some of the same people who bash Champ for his attitude, bash Smoot because he's always running his mouth. Now they love it, go figure.

:confused:

[Art]

GB,

Sorry brother, but you sound ridiculous here. Champ has had a tremendously sub par season. Period. You can't dress it up any other way. Champ has been, far and away, our second best corner THIS season. Period. You can't pretend otherwise. Well, you can, but you don't convince when you do.

Champ did play well today. He wasn't exploited at all. Further, the Giants decided to try Smoot and went at him heavily in the first half. On the game I think it was something like seven passes to Smoot and one to Bailey in man coverage, with three receptions against Smoot and one against Bailey. That's good corner play.

Now, it doesn't hurt at all that the Giants had Palmer in and we decided it was actually legal to blitz. But that's another story. Champ is a fine player. Capable of greatness. He played to that capability a year ago. This year he's had a very sub par year. It's nice to see he had a good game today. That should be the norm for him and it's NOT been.

A lot of the problem is also the feel of Bailey. His comments have been self-serving and seemingly out of touch with his own part in the lost games. He's not shown the type of selflessness that endears him to fans. On the whole we do want him back. Fortunately he's played poorly enough that getting him back should be a tad easier.

[Lavarleap56]

Im tired of always fighting with Champ or his agent after every game . Gmebreaker in case you forgot i already went back and forth about this with you and posted for everyone to see the "9 points of contention" article that described Champ's issue s with the contract.

I also posted many of Champs comments that he says he wants to be paid like the top 3 defensive players in the league as well as my favorite one about getting a Randy Moss type deal. I like Champ and think he is a good corner and can be great if we had a D-Line. If we can keep champ and revamp the line to make it a threat to other teams on a consistant basis im all for it as long as his deal doesnt affect us keeping Arrington and others.

Are you a Redskin fan Gamebreaker or just a Champ fan?? What is more important for the team right now a D-line or a Cornerback who needs a D-line to be great but cant get one due to his fat contract??

[great28]

Let me ask all of you Champ bashers out there this question: Do you honestly think that he has been paid what he's worth since he's been here? If you say yes, then you obviously have some serious issues. Truth of the matter is Champ's been pretty solid this year, not stellar, but solid. Part of the issue is not what he should be paid based on this year but how he's played in the past as well. And if you look at it, you would see that he's been underpaid for his services. Champ's contract is the "Deal of the Century". Everybody in the NFL knows this. Take a look at his contract:

5 years/$9.64M/$3.44M signing bonus

$433K converted to prorated bonus in 2001; Reduced 2002 base salary by $1.12M to $450K (likely guaranteed) and increased 2003 base salary to $2.003M.

This contract is less than $10 million dollars! Five years for just under 10 million? That's less than 2 million a year! And We ***** and complain when he finally ask to be paid what he's worth. Before this year, he hasn't made so much as a peep about his contract. I don't blame him for his concerns over his contract. Based on what the other CB's make, it's hard to contest that he doesn't have a legitimate arguement. You guys can talk about him sucking this year all you want. It's just one year!

Make no mistake about it, if we don't sign him, somebody will. Probably Dallas. And it will probably be for more than he's asking right now. We are the harshest critics of Champ in the league.

The problem is we don't know what it's like to not have a good CB. Think about it. We've always had a good secondary. For the past 20 years we've had Darrell Green back there taking care of business. Five of those years have been with Champ Bailey. Imagine not having either one in our secondary. We don't know what it's like to have a bad defensive backfield and personally, I don't want to find out.

[Art]

Yeah, Great28, he's worth every penny the No. 7 pick of the draft should have gotten. He got paid a tremendous amount MORE than he was worth having not played a single snap in the NFL. He turned out to be a very good player who provided us a service, ultimately, at a bargain price. But, that doesn't negate the fact that he's playing on a contract he signed that was every bit what he was worth and many millions more since draft pick worth is a chancy thing.

Now he's coming up for another contract. He'll get paid. The team wanted to pay him a contract that would have guaranteed him to become the highest paid player at his position in the history of the game. He balked because the team attempted to run it in such a way as to actually HELP the team for cap accounting purposes, but it wouldn't have altered his actual dollars.

He also didn't want to negotiate. Refusing to return an offer for the team to work on with him. Worse, he BLAMED the team for it. Taking none for his side refusing to negotiate. He has had a solid year. But, it is no longer a $15 million year in my view. It's something substantially less.

[Henry]

I do find it interesting that when Champ recovers a fumble or gets an INT off a deflection, it "falls in his lap" but when Smoot does the same thing "he's in position to make a play."

I guess I'm a Champ guy, but only because I don't want to fall into this "he's leaving so let's bash the hell out of him first" nonsense. He's a great player, and even though he's had some off games this season I'd love to have him back next year.

And I like Smoot too. Isn't that weird.

[NavyDave]

Smoot 's guy was getting receptions on comebacks and it was timing patterns

I dont recall any fall into his lap Ints by Smoot who on his last memorable one had to make the catch and keep his feet in.

And it doesnt hurt that he is vocal trying to be the leader in the secondary and more team oriented

[bubba9497]

I don't begrudge any player in the NFL for trying to get the most money he can. Unlike other leagues the contract is not guaranteed and the owners hold most of the cards. I don't like some of the ways players try to get the money.

I don't think his contract signing, out weighs the benefits he provides the Redskins and how Skins fans view him.

[NavyDave]

Thank god

Imagine the NFL with guaranteed contracts like baseball.

We'd have Stubbyfield on the team still and just getting rid of slimetime and jeff george

plus most players would know that they cant behave like the portland trailblazers

[Henry]

Actually Navy, Smoot's last INT was against the Panthers. Sorta fell into his lap.

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by NavyDave

Thank god

Imagine the NFL with guaranteed contracts like baseball.

We'd have Stubbyfield on the team still and just getting rid of slimetime and jeff george

plus most players would know that they cant behave like the portland trailblazers

I didn't say the NFL would be better with guareenteed contracts.... but that I can't begrudge any player for trying to get what he can. One play in the NFL can end your career.

lets be honest there is not one person here if we were in Champs place , would not want to get the best contract we could.

[OURYEAR#56]

The one thing I hate about this situation is Champ's behavior. He doesn't need to go to the media and gripe about his contract. The NFL is a business. He should approach his contract in those terms. He should play as well as he did, and not let the contract negotiations get to him. Obviously the skins tried to sign him, it just didnt work out. that's no reason to bash management, and speak on winning and loosing. If winning and loosing was so important to Champ he would stay with the Skins. Unless he's ignorant he must know that the Skins are very generous with their contracts. Most of our threads concentrate on Dan Snyder over paying a player. So his argument that Snyder didnt want to pay him falls on deaf ears.

I also have to consider whether Champ will give me the wins we need in 2004. Other corners are good, and may be just as good as Champ Bailey. Chris McAlister, Patrick Surtain, etc., are great CB's, is Champ worth more than them?

[Hitnskins]

Chump Bailey still sucks!

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by OURYEAR#56

The one thing I hate about this situation is Champ's behavior. He doesn't need to go to the media and gripe about his contract. The NFL is a business. He should approach his contract in those terms. He should play as well as he did, and not let the contract negotiations get to him. Obviously the skins tried to sign him, it just didnt work out. that's no reason to bash management, and speak on winning and loosing. If winning and loosing was so important to Champ he would stay with the Skins. Unless he's ignorant he must know that the Skins are very generous with their contracts. Most of our threads concentrate on Dan Snyder over paying a player. So his argument that Snyder didnt want to pay him falls on deaf ears.

I also have to consider whether Champ will give me the wins we need in 2004. Other corners are good, and may be just as good as Champ Bailey. Chris McAlister, Patrick Surtain, etc., are great CB's, is Champ worth more than them?

That is just the thing, the media are coming to him and harassing him about the contract issue. He isn't holding a press conference just to vent his frustrations about management, yet a sportswriter can certaintly make you think so by the way he writes his article. I've noticed on numerous occasions, where Champ's comments have started or ended with him saying he doesn't want to talk or think about it until the season ends. Does that sound like a player going to the media to gripe?

Why shouldn't he speak on winning and losing? Especially when he's right?? He's still a player on this team, he has every right to talk about the way the team has performed and why they weren't winning games than any other player.

It's sad that so many fans have a double standard toward whatever he does this season. The same thing happened to Stephen Davis last season, and Fred Smoot in the offseason.

[Art]

The people who were against Smoot in the offseason were a batch of players who decided to only remember the end of the year when he had an injured back and was beaten by Bryant. The people against Davis and Bailey are different. Those guys made comments that were simply less than appropriate. They tried to paint themselves as the good guy while being part of the problem. That's my recollection of the differences.