What percentage of white people have white guilt?

[Gamebreaker]

On 5/6/2017 at 7:15 AM, TryTheBeal! said:

 

The "guilt" does not stem from slavery in the 18th century.  It stems from the active oppression of American blacks in both the living memory(Jim Crow) and present day (war on drugs, GOP policies).

 

Exactly. Slavery is a strawman argument used to avoid talking about all the more recent issues some pretend don't exist. 

[Gamebreaker]

15 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

 

I still don't know where I stand on something like reparations and/or in what kind of form they should even come in, but I do kind of feel like "freedom" from slavery wasn't good enough and at the time there should have been something else to go along with it in order to make up for how behind society an entire race was put. 

 

Very good post. What seems to be forgotten, or in most cases, never taught is that slavery may have officially ended but laws were almost immediately put into place to imprison black males. This was done to appease racist beliefs and economically, prevent white males from having to compete with black males for employment. 

 

Yes, the elite applied these laws and created this systemic oppression. But it has become a part of American politics that continues to this day. We also can't absolve all of white America of what has happened in the past and continues today, because they voted for the elite who openly state their intentions to keep up the status quo. We can look no further than our justice and prison system to see how in some parts of our society, very little has changed since slavery ended. 

 

I'm not white, I'm not going to say whether you should feel guilt about what's happened in the past or not. But if you've ever made the decision to dismiss, minimize or ignore the current oppression of minorities in this country because a) you're selfish and it doesn't affect you or b.) you have this illogical thought that equality would somehow make things harder on you. Than you should feel guilty for being part of the problem, not part of the solution. 

[Kosher Ham]

GOP is not the only guilty party. 

[Gamebreaker]

2 minutes ago, Kosher Ham said:

GOP is not the only guilty party. 

 

Which is one of the many reasons why I am an independent. 

[Springfield]

30 minutes ago, Kosher Ham said:

GOP is not the only guilty party. 

 

It's my opinion that this is why Trump won (or Hillary lost, however you want to phrase it).  Obama was an underdog, black (half, but whatever) man, who other minorities could get behind.  Hillary is just a representation of the oppressing class that has put down minorities for decades.  My opinion:  Minorities (and really I mean black people if we are being specific) took a look at her and were like, "nope", and didn't bother.

 

In my opinion, Trump didn't win because the racists came out in droves, they came out like they normally would.  Hillary lost because she wasn't in touch with minorities.  She wasn't down for the cause.  She certainly wasn't woke af.  Not that Bernie would have done any better with that demographic, but Hillary represents much of what the black community believes has held them back (and continues to hold them back).

[Kosher Ham]

Not to mention many blacks actually voted for Trump. 

His platform and stardom overwhelmed a good percentage of black people.

He's got money, he's trying to focus on a different minority, he's going to make blacks rich.

Stupid, but indeed a reason why many blacks voted for him.  

[grego]

1 hour ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

 

 

Yes, the elite applied these laws and created this systemic oppression. But it has become a part of American politics that continues to this day. We also can't absolve all of white America of what has happened in the past and continues today, because they voted for the elite who openly state their intentions to keep up the status quo. We can look no further than our justice and prison system to see how in some parts of our society, very little has changed since slavery ended. 

 

 

Can you be specific as far as the laws and what ones should be changed? 

[Springfield]

37 minutes ago, grego said:

 

Can you be specific as far as the laws and what ones should be changed? 

 

I think that nationalized health care will help minorities disproportionately.  I favor that.

 

Other laws, like ones that punish crack offenses more than cocaine.  Laws that still keep marijuana a schedule 1 drug.  Our current prison system disproportionately affects blacks, change that.  Our school systems do not give an equivalent education to black people as it does to whites in some areas.  Institutional issues make it difficult for black people to escape the poor neighborhoods they are from, the trap.

 

Some of these aren't laws, and I'm no lawyer, but they are all things that make life as a black person more difficult that life as a white person.

[Bozo the kKklown]

 

[Gamebreaker]

2 hours ago, grego said:

 

Can you be specific as far as the laws and what ones should be changed? 

 

I probably could've worded that better, in that sentence I was specifically thinking about laws that are now obsolete that were instituted with the expressed purpose of jailing former slaves for essentially loitering or being unemployed. Those prisoners than went on and worked some of the jobs they did as slaves, for no pay. Many states in the South and North did this. But because that method of government was never challenged, we see it continue on today. 

 

Undesireables, and not violent criminals, have laws created that specifically targets their behavior. Marijuana convictions is a classic example. Nixon and the FBI targeting the black community by making crack possession worse than cocaine. They knew exactly which drugs affected which community more, yet we see a lack of this kind of policing and justice dealt out to the Midwest and Rust Belt, which is dealing with a far more deadly opiod epidemic today. 

 

The goal was the keep minorities in prison longer. And this country learned long ago how to get unofficial slave labor out of convicts. That also continues today in state run or private prisons. Jobs that could help out unemployment, instead go to convicts who make just enough money to afford commissary. Even workers in third world countries earn more. Meanwhile, an inmate who refuses to work can be hit with solitary confinement or even an extended prison sentence. I find it no coincidence that mandatory minimums came into play close to the same time private prisons began adding occupancy minimums to their contracts. 

[Rattlesnake88]

1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

It's a shame something so obvious has to be depicted in a cartoon for people to understand.

 

However I think the newest generation of children are being taught empathy at an earlier age. I think society is beginning early stages of transcending many issues of bigotry and discrimination. Things are getting better in my opinion.

 

 

 

[Bozo the kKklown]

Just now, Rattlesnake88 said:

It's a shame something so obvious has to be depicted in a cartoon for people to understand.

 

However I think the newest generation of children are being taught empathy at an earlier age. I think society is beginning early stages of transcending many issues of bigotry and discrimination. Things are getting better in my opinion.

 

 

 

they are being taught it, but their parents are reinforcing old norms.

[Rattlesnake88]

Just now, BenningRoadSkin said:

they are being taught it, but their parents are reinforcing old norms.

Well, I have 5 kids and I can see a positive difference from when I went to school in the way people are treated.

 

When I was in school words like "fag" and "retard" were spewed without concern. I believe kids today are much more open minded to those who are different from them.

 

Society isn't perfect, but there are some silver linings here...

[Bozo the kKklown]

25 minutes ago, Rattlesnake88 said:

Well, I have 5 kids and I can see a positive difference from when I went to school in the way people are treated.

 

When I was in school words like "fag" and "retard" were spewed without concern. I believe kids today are much more open minded to those who are different from them.

 

Society isn't perfect, but there are some silver linings here...

oh, i feel you completely. And you doing the part to change things.

 

I am just talking about others. You can read it in some post in the recent uptick of race threads in this forum.

 

Everyone says things are changing. Children are learning, but then I see college campuses where students are racially attacking students who are oppressed, etc. Just saying we doing better but some of these old parents are home doing the same.

[grego]

2 hours ago, Springfield said:

 

I think that nationalized health care will help minorities disproportionately.  I favor that.

 

Other laws, like ones that punish crack offenses more than cocaine.  Laws that still keep marijuana a schedule 1 drug.  Our current prison system disproportionately affects blacks, change that.  Our school systems do not give an equivalent education to black people as it does to whites in some areas.  Institutional issues make it difficult for black people to escape the poor neighborhoods they are from, the trap.

 

Some of these aren't laws, and I'm no lawyer, but they are all things that make life as a black person more difficult that life as a white person.

 

I agree with a lot of that. We have to find a way to get better schools across the board. And sentencing for drugs- crack vs powder coke, pretty sure that needs to be fixed. How, though, I'm not sure. Do we increase the penalty for coke, or decrease it for crack? 

 

As far as marijuana laws, I think that's changing and I think that's a good thing. 

 

As far as the prison system disproportionately affecting blacks and that needing to change, I agree in principle. But where there is a disproportionate number of violent crime in the black community, for example, I'd like to get to why that is and fix it. 

[grego]

1 hour ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

 

 

The goal was the keep minorities in prison longer. And this country learned long ago how to get unofficial slave labor out of convicts. That also continues today in state run or private prisons. Jobs that could help out unemployment, instead go to convicts who make just enough money to afford commissary. Even workers in third world countries earn more. Meanwhile, an inmate who refuses to work can be hit with solitary confinement or even an extended prison sentence. I find it no coincidence that mandatory minimums came into play close to the same time private prisons began adding occupancy minimums to their contracts. 

 

I can't say I know much about the private prison system, but I think I agree with you (based on the little I have heard). 

 

It used to be that if you didn't choose to work in prison, all that would happen was that you'd end up serving more time. Working in the kitchen would get you x amount of days per month taken off your sentence, road crew, if you were eligible, x amount of days, etc. 

 

I hadn't heard about extending sentences or solitary. I'll have to look into that. 

 

Not sure how I feel about the pay for work in prison. 

[Rattlesnake88]

4 minutes ago, grego said:

 

Not sure how I feel about the pay for work in prison. 

I'm all for prison reform and releasing a lot of non violent offenders.

 

But increased pay for labor? Honestly labor is a priveledge in its own right in prison. It's one of the only ways to stay in any kind of decent physical shape while being trapped in prison. Plus it's good for the mind too. I don't think its as much of an issue as overcrowding and crazy mandatory minimums. 

[Gamebreaker]

4 hours ago, grego said:

 

I can't say I know much about the private prison system, but I think I agree with you (based on the little I have heard). 

 

It used to be that if you didn't choose to work in prison, all that would happen was that you'd end up serving more time. Working in the kitchen would get you x amount of days per month taken off your sentence, road crew, if you were eligible, x amount of days, etc. 

 

I hadn't heard about extending sentences or solitary. I'll have to look into that. 

 

Not sure how I feel about the pay for work in prison. 

 

There is a documentary on Netflix called 13 that delves into it. It is very good, I'd recommend checking it out. 

 

At one point our prison system tried rehabilitation. Inmates could earn GEDs, get educated, basically trying to prepare them for life outside of prison to lessen the number of inmates who end up going back in. But prisons trying to turn a profit cut those programs. As far as they're concerned it's just a money drain. So instead, those prisons enter into contract with private sector businesses and produce goods. An inmate looks at making $.12-.15/hour. Those businesses get nearly free labor and don't have to pay benefits. It's a billion dollar industry that began in the 80s and really took off when Clinton got in office. 

 

The DoJ made a statement last year that either threatened to or outright stated they weren't supporting for-profit prisons anymore. But with Trump in office and Sessions in charge, I'm sure it's going to be business as usual. 

4 hours ago, Rattlesnake88 said:

I'm all for prison reform and releasing a lot of non violent offenders.

 

But increased pay for labor? Honestly labor is a priveledge in its own right in prison. It's one of the only ways to stay in any kind of decent physical shape while being trapped in prison. Plus it's good for the mind too. I don't think its as much of an issue as overcrowding and crazy mandatory minimums. 

 

My issue with work in prison is that the jobs they do should either be beneficial in their rehabilitation, or providing a service for the well-being of the prison. Like cleaning up the facilities, cooking, washing clothes, building or renovation. I don't want to see a company that makes beds for college campuses taking jobs away from a high unemployment county by paying inmates to do it for $.12/hour. 

[Rattlesnake88]

1 hour ago, Gamebreaker said:

 I don't want to see a company that makes beds for college campuses taking jobs away from a high unemployment county by paying inmates to do it for $.12/hour. 

Good point.

 

 

[Bozo the kKklown]

Prisons should be for rehabilitation, but these companies have removed that.

[Gerd_Mueller]

I've run several theorems through the model.  The answer is 12.658%, exactly.

[RedskinsMayne]

12 hours ago, Springfield said:

So my wife asked last night, "Have white people ever had to 'rise up', and why not?"

 

Couldn't really answer that.  ES, have any help?

 

well, white people didn't have white privelage at Creation... so obviously at some point something happened.  

10 hours ago, Kosher Ham said:

Not to mention many blacks actually voted for Trump. 

His platform and stardom overwhelmed a good percentage of black people.

He's got money, he's trying to focus on a different minority, he's going to make blacks rich.

Stupid, but indeed a reason why many blacks voted for him.  

 

 

How many blacks to you think voted for trump. Come on man. He had to point out "there's my black guy" at a rally once. My black guy. Maybe he got 5 percent of the black vote. That is his own fault though. Just saying.  He didn't know what the KKK was. Black people ain't voting for that.

[Gerd_Mueller]

15 minutes ago, RedskinsMayne said:

 

well, white people didn't have white privelage at Creation... so obviously at some point something happened.  

 

 

How many blacks to you think voted for trump. Come on man. He had to point out "there's my black guy" at a rally once. My black guy. Maybe he got 5 percent of the black vote. That is his own fault though. Just saying.  He didn't know what the KKK was. Black people ain't voting for that.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/09/09/about-that-poll-showing-donald-trump-doing-well-with-black-voters/?utm_term=.22ddc752c53e

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/11/11/trump-got-more-votes-from-people-of-color-than-romney-did-heres-the-data/?utm_term=.6065a40b0f10

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/2016-election-day/trump-did-better-blacks-hispanics-romney-12-exit-polls-n681386

 

You just need to use Google to see the answer to your question - not what you think.

[RedskinsMayne]

^neat.

[TimmySmith]

7 hours ago, RedskinsMayne said:

How many blacks to you think voted for trump. Come on man. He had to point out "there's my black guy" at a rally once. My black guy. Maybe he got 5 percent of the black vote. That is his own fault though. Just saying.  He didn't know what the KKK was. Black people ain't voting for that.

Black voters came out for Obama, then reverted almost exactly back to traditional levels for the 2016 election.  Proving it doesn't matter who the candidates are if they both are white.