How Hitler Conquered Germany

[Springfield]

23 minutes ago, grego said:

 

Agree that the term nazi shouldn't be used as a descriptor unless the accused is literally a nazi. I think it's ultimately harmful to the cause and causes moderate sympathizers to tune out. 

 

Do you see the threat of fascism as a right wing phenomenon, or do you see authoritarian elements of fascism in the left as well? 

 

This one one has been making the rounds lately:

 

 

Who doesnt love a dank meme?

 

But more seriously, I believe that facism is a generally right wing ideal.  Marxism or socialism is generally the left wing equivalent.

 

Where the argument really gets going is to what degree the left is Marxist and what degree the righty is facist.  My own personal opinion is that the political scale in the US has really swung right.  It is commonplace for ideas such as national health care, public schools and Medicaid to be stigmatized as socialism.  They aren't, but the general public does nothing to argue that the people who cry socialism are doing so under false or uneducated pretenses.  On the other end of the spectrum, it is common for ideas such as military celebration, anti-union and Christian religious ideals to be held as "normal".  All of those ideals are very much in line with a facist viewpoint, and anyonene who held a viewpoint counter to them would be shunned as anti-American.

 

Thus, we are already being indoctrinated to the right.  Our national scale is/has shifted.  Facism is becoming more accepted, as evidenced by Trump.

[Captain Wiggles]

1 minute ago, Springfield said:

 

My own personal opinion is that the political scale in the US has really swung right.

 

That happened around 1968. The so called "silent majority" has wielded great power and influence ever since. Most of which lean right or in a lot of instances far right. Americans overreaction to communism/socialism is a yUge factor IMO.

[grego]

1 hour ago, Springfield said:

 

On the other end of the spectrum, it is common for ideas such as military celebration

 

Out of curiosity, did you serve? 

[Springfield]

3 hours ago, grego said:

 

Out of curiosity, did you serve? 

 

I did not.

[DogofWar1]

11 hours ago, grego said:

 

Agree that the term nazi shouldn't be used as a descriptor unless the accused is literally a nazi. I think it's ultimately harmful to the cause and causes moderate sympathizers to tune out. 

 

Do you see the threat of fascism as a right wing phenomenon, or do you see authoritarian elements of fascism in the left as well? 

 

Well, fascism by definition is a right wing philosophy, but certainly aspects of fascism can appear in the left as well.  At present, the threat is not really there from the US left, but historically sure, I think any political philosophy that seeks power through substitution of party truths over true facts, and seeks to squash their opposition, could exhibit the authoritarian elements of fascism.

[grego]

I see both sides increasingly believing that the other is radical and dangerous- and not just a few extremists, but the majority of the party. I understand why both sides feel this way, though it's probably more accurate to say the right has always had those values you listed - and they are more apparent at different points in time, while the left may be more actually shifting further left.

 

Basically, I think one can say that Americans have become more open to liberal ideas, overall, rather than more conservative. I'm thinking about things like attitudes about gay marriage and racial attitudes. In my lifetime - in the last ten or so years- the idea of a black president or gays being legally married were unthinkable. 

 

So I do see the left and winning the war on ideas. 

 

I agree that the ideas you listed aren't socialist in and of themselves, but the right sees that as bigger government - the more things that are controlled by the government, the closer you get to actual socialism. 

 

(a virtue like military celebration, I can see as non partisan, but it also depends on how it's defined.)

 

The authoritarianism I was talking about is referring to an apparent shift in how the left handles ideas that are not seen as of the left. Violence as a response seems to be more accepted. Or just shutting down conversation, rather than responding with ideas and arguments. 

 

To what extent that perception is true is certainly debatable, like anything else that's hard to quantify. 

 

Imo, the left is winning the war on ideas. They have won the popular vote in the last three elections, while turnout from the right has remained stagnant. 

 

To lsfs point, I think the response from the left to the right should be to recognize why Clinton lost rather than why Trump 'won'- what mistakes did the left make that enabled this to happen, introspection -  stay on the path, engage in debate, embrace and include, rather than divide, and ultimately win the center (which may be growing and is absolutely there to be won) rather than moving further left. 

 

[Springfield]

2 hours ago, grego said:

I see both sides increasingly believing that the other is radical and dangerous- and not just a few extremists, but the majority of the party. I understand why both sides feel this way, though it's probably more accurate to say the right has always had those values you listed - and they are more apparent at different points in time, while the left may be more actually shifting further left.

 

Basically, I think one can say that Americans have become more open to liberal ideas, overall, rather than more conservative. I'm thinking about things like attitudes about gay marriage and racial attitudes. In my lifetime - in the last ten or so years- the idea of a black president or gays being legally married were unthinkable. 

 

So I do see the left and winning the war on ideas. 

 

I agree that the ideas you listed aren't socialist in and of themselves, but the right sees that as bigger government - the more things that are controlled by the government, the closer you get to actual socialism. 

 

(a virtue like military celebration, I can see as non partisan, but it also depends on how it's defined.)

 

The authoritarianism I was talking about is referring to an apparent shift in how the left handles ideas that are not seen as of the left. Violence as a response seems to be more accepted. Or just shutting down conversation, rather than responding with ideas and arguments. 

 

To what extent that perception is true is certainly debatable, like anything else that's hard to quantify. 

 

Imo, the left is winning the war on ideas. They have won the popular vote in the last three elections, while turnout from the right has remained stagnant. 

 

To lsfs point, I think the response from the left to the right should be to recognize why Clinton lost rather than why Trump 'won'- what mistakes did the left make that enabled this to happen, introspection -  stay on the path, engage in debate, embrace and include, rather than divide, and ultimately win the center (which may be growing and is absolutely there to be won) rather than moving further left. 

 

 

Good post and I agree on a lot of that.

 

The left has done a decent job on social issues. Although I think that a lot of that is seen through the prism of social and news media.  There have seemingly been gains on issues like gay marriage, racial issues, gender equality issues, stuff like that.  But there has certainly been a decent push back on those issues as well.  The push back probably isn't as visible because I think (and I don't have any facts to back me up, so just hear me out) that social media is tilted very far to the left.  It's seen in legislation, it's seen in voting patterns.  I believe that the core of "Make America Great Again" is pushing back against these new social norms.  So there are a lot of people who simply don't like this "progress".

 

To tie in with Clinton losing, I think that her camp didn't recognize this.  Basically, they were in a huge echo chamber (in twitter, Facebook, etc) that simply said she was going to skate.  She barely put in any leg work while her opponent was holding grass roots style rallies nearly every day and keeping himself in the front and center.  It wasn't a few protest votes by college kids that did Hillary in, it was the fact that she thought she could trust social media to win her election.

 

The violence and shut in mentality of this new arm of the Democratic Party is one I don't agree with but one that I think is overblown.  I think these riots (some may call them protests) are staged and acted out by people who want to watch the world burn.  I don't think they're liberals, not in the political sense at least.  I think, if you want to take a true liberal protest, you look at the women's march where nobody was arrested and no violence or damage occurred even though the protest route was so overcrowded that they couldn't even march.

 

This has gotten waaaay off topic, so I suppose I'll put something very odd out there:

 

I'd love to see a split ticket.  Moderate democrat, moderate republican ticket.  I'd vote for that.  Two actual friends with slightly different ideologies that just want the best for the country.  I bet it would win in a landslide.

[twa]

15 minutes ago, Springfield said:

 

 

 

I'd love to see a split ticket.  Moderate democrat, moderate republican ticket.  I'd vote for that.  Two actual friends with slightly different ideologies that just want the best for the country.  I bet it would win in a landslide.

 

I doubt the parties would go for it.....which are the real dividers

last time it happened was Lincoln and then war.