WP: Justice Dept. document justifies killing Americans overseas if they pose ‘imminent threat’

[Larry]

Lets see now He's been connected to DOZENS of terror plots but hey, there's no real proof right?

If your definition of "connected" is "he posted a YouTube, which somebody else watched, and then that person did something bad".

Should we apply the same standard to other crimes? John Doe kills an abortion doctor. Go find out which anti-abortion web sites he read, and then kill the people who run those web sites?

"Look out! He's got a web page!"

Have I shoveled the sarcasm on thick enough, yet?

See, that's the problem with killing people based on things like "associated with" or "connected to". You wind up killing Kevin Bacon because he was in a movie with Patrick Stewart who was in a movie with William Shatner, who sang really bad in the 60s.

[Mad Mike]

If your definition of "connected" is "he posted a YouTube, which somebody else watched, and then that person did something bad".

Should we apply the same standard to other crimes? John Doe kills an abortion doctor. Go find out which anti-abortion web sites he read, and then kill the people who run those web sites?

"Look out! He's got a web page!"

Have I shoveled the sarcasm on thick enough, yet?

See, that's the problem with killing people based on things like "associated with" or "connected to". You wind up killing Kevin Bacon because he was in a movie with Patrick Stewart who was in a movie with William Shatner, who sang really bad in the 60s.

Yeah because Shatner hangs out with bomb makers.

Keep ignoring the facts. Keep ignoring that he met with the guy who third to blow up a plane or that he told him to be sure to blow it up over US airspace for maximum effect.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-6174780.html

The suspect in a failed Christmas Day airliner bombing attempt told federal investigators that radical Yemeni cleric Anwar al-Awlaki directed him to carry out the attack, CBS News has learned.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/aulaqi-gets-new-designation-in-death/2011/09/30/gIQAsbF69K_blog.html

A U.S. intelligence official said that CIA analysts and others had been referring to Aulaqi by that designation for some time, saying that he was “intimately involved in the attacks that have come closest to hitting the United States.”

Umar Farouk AbdulmutallabIn December 2009, Aulaqi “specifically instructed” Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab to wait until his Christmas Day flight had crossed into U.S. airspace before detonating the bomb he had hidden in his underwear

Aulaqi also had “a direct role in supervising” AQAP’s attempt to mail parcels packed with explosives to addresses in the United States last year, the official said.

Yemen experts have expressed skepticism about the escalating assertions about Aulaqi, and characterizations of him as a key operational figure.

“Certainly Aulaqi was a threat, but eliminating him is not the same as killing Osama bin Laden,” said Gregory Johnsen, an expert on Yemen. Johnsen noted that other AQAP figures are more influential in the organization, and more important to its operations. Among them are Naser Wuhayshi, the head of the organization, and Qassim al-Raymi, its military commander.

U.S. officials counter that it was Aulaqi who pushed the organization, which is comprised mainly of Saudis and Yemenis, to make hitting American targets a top priority. “He said publicly that was his goal,” the U.S. intelligence official said.

Kevin Bacon... yeah, that's a good comparison. :doh:

[TD_washingtonredskins]

In my opinion, advising people how to attack our country is an imminent threat. Let's stop minimizing what he did to try to make a point. You can still disagree with this policy and not have to defend this *******.

[Larry]

Yeah because Shatner hangs out with bomb makers.

Do you occasionally hear the sound, kind of a "woosh" sound, like something, rapidly moving, just flew over your head?

But let's examine this.

In your opinion should the US Government have the authority to kill people because of who they hang out with? Is that your definition of "imminent threat"?

Keep ignoring the facts. Keep ignoring that he met with the guy who third to blow up a plane or that he told him to be sure to blow it up over US airspace for maximum effect.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-6174780.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/aulaqi-gets-new-designation-in-death/2011/09/30/gIQAsbF69K_blog.html

Kevin Bacon... yeah, that's a good comparison. :doh:

Oooh, now we've gone from "he inspired" to "he met with".

Know what those things have in common? They're both talking.

And I guess that makes him an "imminent threat". For two years. While unarmed. Because after all, no way to tell when he might talk again.

----------

I want us to have the power to kill (or torture) people, when there's an imminent threat. (The famous "ticking time bomb scenario" for example.)

I have a problem when "imminent threat" gets applied to bloggers who give rousing anti-American speeches, car drivers, and the like.

And one of the ways that that standard gets stretched beyond recognition, is phrases like "associated with".

---------- Post added February-5th-2013 at 06:42 PM ----------

In my opinion, advising people how to attack our country is an imminent threat.

Funny. That's not the standard we've been using for hundreds of years.

The standard has been that for the cops to shoot somebody, he had to have a gun. And it had to be in his hand. And it had to be pointed at somebody, or in the process of being pointed at somebody.

Now, suddenly, planning a threat, justifies killing without trial?

(And blowing up one airplane constitutes "attacking our country"?)

[twa]

Hell man Torture is authorized legally by our laws too... I guess my morality isn't on a swivel... I guess I'm thinking it will take more than 19 guys who can afford the price of a coach airline ticket to make us surrender or values.

my morals remained unchanged,and it's sad it took 9/11 to wake some people up to reality.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

The fact that you don't agree that blowing up a plane is an attack on our country concerns me.

[Mad Mike]

Do you occasionally hear the sound, kind of a "woosh" sound, like something, rapidly moving, just flew over your head?

Yeah but I recognize it as the air exiting the hollow spot between your ears every time you open your mouth.

Once again since you keep trying to ignore reality...

The suspect in a failed Christmas Day airliner bombing attempt told federal investigators that radical Yemeni cleric Anwar al-Awlaki directed him to carry out the attack, CBS News has learned.

Aulaqi “specifically instructed” Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab to wait until his Christmas Day flight had crossed into U.S. airspace before detonating the bomb he had hidden in his underwear

It is an ABSOLUTE FACT that he did more than just "hang out" with AQ. He recruited people, he instructed them to kill Americans, he told them in HOW to kill americans. And oh yeah he just happened to be "hanging out" with AQs top bomb maker when he was killed. But I'm sure they were just planning a wedding or something.

[Larry]

Deleted post. Getting too ugly and confrontational. And I'm working on trying to reduce that.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I understand that "imminent" is subjective. I think attempting to blow up a plane in US air space is an attack. I see your point though about distinguishing between someone advising and someone who is literally about to attack with a weapon. It's just difficult for me not to agree with killing people responsible for intentionally inspiring others to hurt us.

[Mad Mike]

Deleted post. Getting too ugly and confrontational. And I'm working on trying to reduce that.

Good for you. And I promise that next time, If you don't try to be a smart ass with comments about something whizzing by my head, I wont throw it back at you.

And staying on topic, TD_washingtonredskins said it very well...

In my opinion, advising people how to attack our country is an imminent threat. Let's stop minimizing what he did to try to make a point. You can still disagree with this policy and not have to defend this *******.

[JMS]

Riiiiiiight. (waiting for you to post a quote from Robertson calling on anyone to kill gays) :doh:

I'm your huckleburry....

Pat Robertson has called for his followers to kill abortion doctors.

Scott Roeder' date=' Convicted Murderer, Cites Pat Robertson As Influence In Court ( after murdering an abortion doctor in church )

[url']http://www.mediaite.com/print/scott-roeder-convicted-murderer-cites-pat-robertson-as-influence-in-court/[/url]

Pat Robertson's "thou shall not murder" commandment doesn't apply to abortion doctors.

http://www.patrobertson.com/teaching/shallnotmurder.asp

Robertson seems to be safe from Gays... he just blames huricanes, earthquakes and 911 on Gay people but he doesn't say they should be killed....

It's good to know that the gays would be justified killing these other Evangelical Conservative Chrisitans, though...

God Commands You To Kill Gays

( There is a sermon recorded)..

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/god-commands-you-kill-gays

A Kansas Pastor Keneth Snap .says that gay people "should be put to death"

(Regarding Uganda's law to kill Homosexuals)

Much of Africa’s anti-homosexuality movement is supported by American evangelicals, the Rev. Kapya Kaoma of Zambia wrote in 2009, who are keen to export the American “culture war” to new ground. Indeed, American evangelical Christians played a role in stirring the anti-homosexual sentiment that culminated in the initial legislation in Uganda.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/29/world/africa/ugandan-lawmakers-push-anti-homosexuality-bill-again.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Christian Right Leader Tony Perkins Lauds Uganda Dictator as 'Kill the Gays' Bill Is Revived

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/christian-right-leader-lauds-uganda-dictator-kill-gays-bill-revived

Bottom line, we are very forgiving of stupid Americans calling for violence against other Americans when those stupid people don't have funny sounding names like Anwar al-Aulaqi..

---------- Post added February-6th-2013 at 12:35 AM ----------

my morals remained unchanged,and it's sad it took 9/11 to wake some people up to reality.

So your "morals" are the same as the Japanese war criminals we executed after WWII for waterboarding prisoners? Was that your point?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-begala/yes-inational-reviewi-we_b_191153.html

I don't think so... I think rather the country has changed it's views dramatically on tortue after 911, mostly because of fear and poor leaders driving us that way.

And it's also nice to know your "morals" don't include upholding US Laws such as the Geneva Convention which became law when ratified by the Senate in the 1950's not to torture prisoners..

I don't think that's true either..

So maybe you should restate that position.

[twa]

maybe you should adjust your understanding of laws and treaties instead.

as to WWII....who do you think would have been in the dock if we had lost?

as Obamas adjustments show,winning changes perceptions....or is it just the power?

[Mad Mike]

I'm your huckleburry....

Pat Robertson has called for his followers to kill abortion doctors.

Pat Robertson's "thou shall not murder" commandment doesn't apply to abortion doctors.

http://www.patrobertson.com/teaching/shallnotmurder.asp

Robertson seems to be safe from Gays... he just blames huricanes, earthquakes and 911 on Gay people but he doesn't say they should be killed....

It's good to know that the gays would be justified killing these other Evangelical Conservative Chrisitans, though...

Bottom line, we are very forgiving of stupid Americans calling for violence against other Americans when those stupid people don't have funny sounding names like Anwar al-Aulaqi..

Love the movie reference but you aren't the same badd ass.

...So ...I read through the links and listened to audio and video. Heres what I found:

The fist link is a guy who claims Robertson inspired him but nothing was given in the form of a quote to point to.

The "thou shall not murder" link is just that. No reference to it being OK to murder abortion doctors. He simply calls abortion murder and says ALL murder is against gods law.

Robertson example - FAIL.

"God Commands You To Kill Gays" link - The title of the story is the only reference to the words. What the crazy **** is saying is that being gay should be punishable by death as a law of the land. Deplorable yes, but hardly a call for everyone to go kill gays. I'm not saying he wouldn't like that but he was smart enough to avoid saying something that would land him in legal trouble.

"gay people should be put to death" link - Again calling on the law to kill gays, not citizens. Deplorable and sick but not on the same level as inciting murder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soliciting_to_murder

You see, if the people you are pointing to had said anything like what Aulaqi did, DIRECTLY CALLING for the killing of Americans and had as many people actually try to do it, they would be in prison or dead. And we haven't even gone into Aulaqi giving direct instructions on when to blow up the plane or speaking to him about his plans in person. Nor does it take into account that Aulaqi had '“a direct role in supervising” AQAP’s attempt to mail parcels packed with explosives to addresses in the United States".

Once again... Aulaqi went WAY beyond just talking about killing Americans in some abstract way. He recruited people, he told them it was gods will to kill americans, and he helped plan and execute some of those plans, and he was continuing to do so until the day he died.

Damn shame to waste such a good movie line on such a failed post.

[JMS]

maybe you should adjust your understanding of laws and treaties instead.

as to WWII....who do you think would have been in the dock if we had lost?

So your point is the ends justify the means... perfect synopsis... Talk about compromising morals... So I'm justified in killing you, as long as I don't get caught? Or selling our nations secrets on ebay?

Or ( insert any morally abhorrent behavior)..

as Obamas adjustments show,winning changes perceptions....or is it just the power?

Obama's behavior paint him as a moderate pragmatic conservative. Now either he swiveled dramatically from the communist the GOP painted him as during his first election, or he hasn't and the GOP were just not telling us the truth.... I leave it up to you to determine which is the more likely reality.

[twa]

So your point is the ends justify the means... perfect synopsis... Talk about compromising morals... So I'm justified in killing you, as long as I don't get caught? Or selling our nations secrets on ebay?

Or ( insert any morally abhorrent behavior)..

Obama's behavior paint him as a moderate pragmatic conservative. Now either he swiveled dramatically from the communist the GOP painted him as during his first election, or he hasn't and the GOP were just not telling us the truth.... I leave it up to you to determine which is the more likely reality.

The results matter greatly to me..

'your' principles are fine when they do not result in harm to those you are in charge of....if they do it is probably for the best ...and perfectly moral to you right?

with leadership comes responsibility,with responsibility....duty

you may consider O as such, but the view is different from my perspective

having to add qualifiers to conservative usually means you are reaching

[Predicto]

Hey, they're quoting a "Nobel Peace Prize nominee".

Heheh. You caught that too?

Anyone can be a Nobel Prize nominee, because millions of people have the ability to nominate, and they can nominate anyone they want. Anyone who works for the government of any country, for example, can nominate people if they want to. Joseph Stalin was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. The quack doctor who said that Terry Schiavo was not braindead was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Medicine.

Winning is an entirely different matter.

[JMS]

Love the movie reference but you aren't the same badd ass.

Listen, Mr. Kansas Law Dog. Law don't go around here. Savvy?

In vino veritas.

Age quod agis.

...So ...I read through the links and listened to audio and video. Heres what I found:

The fist link is a guy who claims Robertson inspired him but nothing was given in the form of a quote to point to.

Yeah that's called inspiration.

Like saying Homosexuals were behind the Nazi's and holocaust and they are trying to do it again here.

"When lawlessness is abroad in the land, the same thing will happen here that happened in Nazi Germany," Pat Robertson once warned viewers of his 700 Club. "Many of those people involved with Adolf Hitler were satanists. Many of them were homosexuals. The two seem to go together."

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2005/spring/holy-war/making-myths

He's not telling Floyd over their to attack gay people.... He's just saying gay people are the epitome of evil in the world and you should defend yourself generally against them by killing them...

The "thou shall not murder" link is just that. No reference to it being OK to murder abortion doctors. He simply calls abortion murder and says ALL murder is against gods law.

Really..

Synopsis..... Thou shalt not murder... It's one of the ten commandments... abortion is murder... Recently saw some pictures of the holocaust... Stalin, Hitler, Mao were murders... (Paints pictures of their atrocities) Repeats, God says thou shalt not murder, However, Jesus expanded on what God Said. Observing We all break the ten commandments, based upon Jesus words... God Almighty wants to protect life without fear of being murdered.

Whenever Satan is at work in the world, people's lives aren't safe.

http://www.patrobertson.com/teaching/shallnotmurder.asp

This sermon is all over the place... unless you say to yourself that when Pat says "thou shalt not murder" he's not talking to the folks listening to him... He's talking about the doctors... Then the sermon makes perfect sense.

Robertson example - FAIL.

Yeah he doesn't say bomb flight 007... He just equates gay people with the most evil people historically who ever lived, people who we went to war with. People who directly threatenned us as a nation and a generation of Americans grew up fearing. Saying Gays were behind philosophies we mustered our entire national means to destroy for decades.

Nothing inflammatory about that. They are possessed by daemons... they want to kill your children.... He's afraid because God destroyed entire cities due to gay lifestyle... etc....

Yeah nothing violence inspiring about that.

"God Commands You To Kill Gays" link - The title of the story is the only reference to the words. What the crazy **** is saying is that being gay should be punishable by death as a law of the land. Deplorable yes, but hardly a call for everyone to go kill gays. I'm not saying he wouldn't like that but he was smart enough to avoid saying something that would land him in legal trouble.

dude, saying their should be a death penalty for being gay is LITERALLY a call for everyone to kill gays.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/god-commands-you-kill-gays

"gay people should be put to death" link - Again calling on the law to kill gays, not citizens.

Deplorable and sick but not on the same level as inciting murder.

:doh: He literally says GAY PEOPLE SHOULD BE PUT TO DEATH... Like they do In Israel. ( no rocket scientist he... ) And I guess your distinction is lost on me...

You see, if the people you are pointing to had said anything like what Aulaqi did, DIRECTLY CALLING for the killing of Americans and had as many people actually try to do it, they would be in prison or dead.

No there wouldn't.. Because there isn't. Eight people have been murdered since 1993 over abortion rights..

Since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 383 death threats, 173 arsons, 153 incidents of assault or battery, , 41 bombings, 17 attempted murders, 3 kidnappings 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, and 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#Murders

In the last two years their have been 41 fatal attacks on gay people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States#2010.E2.80.93present

And we haven't even gone into Aulaqi giving direct instructions on when to blow up the plane or speaking to him about his plans in person.

Nor does it take into account that Aulaqi had '“a direct role in supervising” AQAP’s attempt to mail parcels packed with explosives to addresses in the United States".

Al-Awlaki, was associated with:

• three of the 9/11 hijackers, who prayed at his mosque;
  
• the 2005 London Bombings; The bombers transcribed lectures of al-Awlaki while plotting the bombings. His materials were found in the possession of accused accomplices of the suicide bombers.
  
• a 2006 Toronto terror cell; Listenned to al-Awlaki's online hate speek
  
• a 2007 Fort Dix attack plot; One of the men in the Fort Dix plot was recorded on a now widely broadcast surveillance tape commenting on a lecture by Anwar al-Awlaki,
  
• the 2009 Fort Hood shooter. (*)
  

(*) Hasan expressed admiration for the teachings of Anwar al-Awlaki, the imam at the Dar al-Hijrah mosque in Falls Church, Virginia between 2000 and 2002.[81] Considered moderate then, Al-Awlaki appeared to become radicalized after 2006 and was under surveillance. After Hasan wrote nearly 20 emails to him between December 2008 and June 2009, he was investigated by the FBI. In one, Hasan wrote: "I can't wait to join you" in the afterlife. Lt. Col. Tony Shaffer, a military analyst at the Center for Advanced Defense Studies, suggested that Hasan was "either offering himself up or [had] already crossed that line in his own mind." Hasan asked al-Awlaki when jihad is appropriate, and whether it is permissible if innocents are killed in a suicide attack.[82]

Army employees were informed of the contacts at the time, but they believed that the emails were consistent with Hasan's professional mental health research about Muslims in the armed services, as part of his master's work in Disaster and Preventive Psychiatry.[83] A DC-based joint terrorism task force operating under the FBI was notified, and the information reviewed by one of its Defense Criminal Investigative Service (DCIS) employees, who concluded there was not sufficient information for a larger investigation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting

Once again... Aulaqi went WAY beyond just talking about killing Americans in some abstract way. He recruited people, he told them it was gods will to kill Americans, and he helped plan and execute some of those plans, and he was continuing to do so until the day he died.

Said it's good to kill Americans... like the religious right does all the time? And again I don't think their is any evidence which would stand up in court that he planned or executed jack... Which is why the courts nor anybody else got to see the evidence against him.

Damn shame to waste such a good movie line on such a failed post.

Eventus stultorum magister [pats gun]

[twa]

Winning is an entirely different matter.

Like Arafat

[JMS]

The results matter greatly to me..

Look at the example of terrorism. Their goal of waging jihad and opposing what they deem injustice does not justify their acts of killing innocent people or violating human rights.

Methods which violate our sense of righteousness and morals, cannot validate goals, however worthy they may be. Our values which guide us also are what define us. If we give up those values, not only are the ends corrupted, but we have redefined our very purpose.. Worse we have untethered our purpose from morality and attached it to any intermediate shinny bauble which happens to cross our path.

having to add qualifiers to conservative usually means you are reaching

Or it means I want to draw your attention to the use of the word. Obama's conservative credentials are beyond debate... that is if you define conservative beyond reproductive rights.

[Larry]

Or it means I want to draw your attention to the use of the word. Obama's conservative credentials are beyond debate... that is if you define conservative beyond reproductive rights.

Not to the modern Republican Party or their worshipers. If you have to put the word "moderate" in front of "conservative", then it invalidates the second word.

[JMS]

Heheh. You caught that too?

Anyone can be a Nobel Prize nominee, because millions of people have the ability to nominate, and they can nominate anyone they want. Anyone who works for the government of any country, for example, can nominate people if they want to. Joseph Stalin was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. The quack doctor who said that Terry Schiavo was not braindead was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Medicine.

Winning is an entirely different matter.

I usually don't toot my own horn but I won Time Magazine's person of the year in 2006... Now you are saying I can be a Nobel Peace Prize nominee too..

I got to get a stamp on my way home.

---------- Post added February-6th-2013 at 03:52 PM ----------

Not to the modern Republican Party or their worshipers. If you have to put the word "moderate" in front of "conservative", then it invalidates the second word.

Yes you are correct, I draw my definition of conservative from the oxford dictionary, not Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or Pat Robertson.

[Mad Mike]

Listen, Mr. Kansas Law Dog. Law don't go around here. Savvy?

In vino veritas.

Age quod agis.

Yeah that's called inspiration.

Like saying Homosexuals were behind the Nazi's and holocaust and they are trying to do it again here.

He's not telling Floyd over their to attack gay people.... He's just saying gay people are the epitome of evil in the world and you should defend yourself generally against them by killing them...

Really..

Synopsis..... Thou shalt not murder... It's one of the ten commandments... abortion is murder... Recently saw some pictures of the holocaust... Stalin, Hitler, Mao were murders... (Paints pictures of their atrocities) Repeats, God says thou shalt not murder, However, Jesus expanded on what God Said. Observing We all break the ten commandments, based upon Jesus words... God Almighty wants to protect life without fear of being murdered.

Whenever Satan is at work in the world, people's lives aren't safe.

http://www.patrobertson.com/teaching/shallnotmurder.asp

Yeah he doesn't say bomb flight 007... He just equates gay people with the most evil people historically who ever lived, people who we went to war with. People who directly threatenned us as a nation and a generation of Americans grew up fearing. Saying Gays were behind philosophies we mustered our entire national means to destroy for decades.

Nothing inflammatory about that. They are possessed by daemons... they want to kill your children.... He's afraid because God destroyed entire cities due to gay lifestyle... etc....

Yeah nothing violence inspiring about that.

dude, saying their should be a death penalty for being gay is LITERALLY a call for everyone to kill gays.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/god-commands-you-kill-gays

:doh: He literally says GAY PEOPLE SHOULD BE PUT TO DEATH... Like they do In Israel. ( no rocket scientist he... ) And I guess your distinction is lost on me...

No there wouldn't.. Because there isn't. Eight people have been murdered since 1993 over abortion rights..

Since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 383 death threats, 173 arsons, 153 incidents of assault or battery, , 41 bombings, 17 attempted murders, 3 kidnappings 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, and 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#Murders

In the last two years their have been 41 fatal attacks on gay people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States#2010.E2.80.93present

Say's Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, after two years of having his toenails pulled out.

Look, if they have Creditable evidence of that... Great I'd love to hear it. I'm sure if they have evidence of that they should be very interested in presenting that in court and saying exactly why they killed the dude... Because he was a terrorist.... But that's not what they've done, that's not what they've consistently said, and no they don't exactly have a good track record on such things...

We had this guy in custody, and the FBI interviewed him voluntarily 8 times after 911 and we let him go, let him leave the country... But now we are expected to believe he was one of the organizers of 9/11?

Oh and nobody is linking this guy to "dozens of terrorist attacks" as you say... He's a foul mouthed hate monger living in Yemen, not entirely dissimilar to our own foul mouthed hate mongers living in Virginia beach, South Carolina, and other places... If you want to waste the guy, don't publish his hate speak... give evidence he's a criminal, to an independent judge and for God's sake don't base it on the testimony of somebody you've been abusing for sport over the last few years who wasn't all that well connected with reality to begin with.

Believed to be linked...

Recruited People? who? The underwear bomber from Nigeria? who else? The Major in the Army who shot up fort hood who apparently exchange TWO emails with Aulaqi which we can't read?

Good to kill Americans... like the religious right does all the time? And again I don't think their is any evidence which would stand up in court that he planned or executed jack... Which is why the courts nor anybody else got to see the evidence against him.

Eventus stultorum magister [pats gun]

Love how you assume "the religious right" is calling on people to murder gays when you haven't given a single direct quote. "they were inspired!" Yet direct quotes from Aulaqi calling on muslims to kill americans are dismissed along with ACTUAL evidence of him being directly connected to bombers and bomb makers. Then you just make **** up... "Say's Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, after two years of having his toenails pulled out." You need proof of everything Aulaqi did, including 8x10 glossies of him strapping bombs to people but you can just assume the guy who says Aulaqi recruited him and told him to blow himself up in US airspace was lying because he was tortured.

And I'm glad to know you need more than one person to try to blow up an airplane before you count that as recruiting and guidance by Aulaqi. Maybe a couple hundred people can die next time so you can be sure that the guy who sent someone to blow up a plane is an actual terrorist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar_Farouk_Abdulmutallab

Intelligence officials suspect al-Awlaki may have directed Abdulmutallab to Yemen for al-Qaeda training.[49] One government source described intercepted "voice-to-voice communication" between the two during the fall of 2009.[94] After being arrested, Abdulmutallab reportedly told the FBI that al-Awlaki was one of his trainers when he did al-Qaeda training in remote camps in Yemen. There were "informed reports" that Abdulmutallab met al-Awlaki during his final weeks of training and indoctrination prior to the attack.[95][96]

A U.S. intelligence official said that information pointed to connections between the two:

Some of the information ... comes from Abdulmutallab, who ... said that he met with al-Awlaki and senior al-Qaeda members during an extended trip to Yemen this year, and that the cleric was involved in some elements of planning or preparing the attack and in providing religious justification for it. Other intelligence linking the two became apparent after the attempted bombing, including communications intercepted by the National Security Agency indicating that the cleric was meeting with "a Nigerian" in preparation for some kind of operation.[97]

Yemen's Deputy Prime Minister for Defense and Security Affairs, Rashad Mohammed al-Alimi, said Yemeni investigators believe the suspect traveled in October to Shabwa, where he met with suspected al-Qaeda members. They met in a house built and used by al-Awlaki to hold theological sessions, and Abdulmutallab was trained and equipped there with his explosives.[98]

Got anything like that on a crazy US preacher? How about this...

Obama has promised that his administration will be one of transparency but he has not fulfilled his promise. His administration tried to portray the operation of brother Nidal Hasan as an individual act of violence from an estranged individual. The administration practiced to control on the leak of information concerning the operation in order to cushion the reaction of the American public.

Until this moment the administration is refusing to release the e-mails exchanged between myself and Nidal. And after the operation of our brother Umar Farouk the initial comments coming from the administration were looking the same -- another attempt at covering up the truth. But Al Qaeda cut off Obama from deceiving the world again by issuing their statement claiming responsibility for the operation. - Anwar al-Aulaqi

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/18/raw-data-partial-transcript-radical-clerics-tape/#ixzz2K9gII8F2

"Fools have to learn by experience" indeed. But in your case I suspect you are beyond learning. I find your "logic" severely lacking on this issue. The arguments you have made remind me of a conspiracy theorist attempting to make 2+2= 100,000,000. As such I'm done with you. Life is too short to debate a person so sure they are right that they are willing to detach themselves from reality.

[twa]

Look at the example of terrorism. Their goal of waging jihad and opposing what they deem injustice does not justify their acts of killing innocent people or violating human rights.

Methods which violate our sense of righteousness and morals, cannot validate goals, however worthy they may be. Our values which guide us also are what define us. If we give up those values, not only are the ends corrupted, but we have redefined our very purpose.. Worse we have untethered our purpose from morality and attached it to any intermediate shinny bauble which happens to cross our path.

Or it means I want to draw your attention to the use of the word. Obama's conservative credentials are beyond debate... that is if you define conservative beyond reproductive rights.

"our sense of righteousness and morals" is not necessarily the ones you endorse, nor is validation drawn from methodology.

What in your mind validates our killing of innocents and violating of human rights?

add

my liberal credentials are beyond debate....labeling me one might get you some guffaws though

[JMS]

Love how you assume "the religious right" is calling on people to murder gays when you haven't given a single direct quote..

Mike serously... Provided with a quote that says... "Gays should be taken out and killed, God commanned it".. In the pasters own voice, you .come back with, "I'm assuming, (some of) the religious right are calling on people to murder gays, but haven't given a single quote".

I mean I provide a link saying that the death penelty campagne in Uganda is being funded by these whackadoodles and you still question there lethal intent?

---------- Post added February-6th-2013 at 06:43 PM ----------

"our sense of righteousness and morals" is not necessarily the ones you endorse,

evidently,

What in your mind validates our killing of innocents and violating of human rights?

I don't think any morality validates purposely killing of innocents or violating there human rights.. These things are done purposely in the lack of moral validation. What I was discussing is how to determine morally who is guilty, and then how to morally determine if their guilt rises to the level of our highest penelty... I would argue in the lack of an imminent threat ( i. e. you are going to sort out punishment two years down the road)...The constitution of the United States does a pretty fair job at describing my beliefs on the matter. Independent judge, public trial, right to face one's accusor, court of ones peers, no cruel or unusual punishment... you know the tune....

add

my liberal credentials are beyond debate....labeling me one might get you some guffaws though

Again this is really definition specific... But I don't think you fit my definition of a liberal. The definition of liberal or conservative which transend the contemporary whackadoodle fringe and which defined polititians in Rome, Revolutionary France, During the American Revolution, The civil war, The Great Depression, what defined the allies of WWII, and right up until today....

Liberals or Conservatives differ in how they seek solutions to problems...

Conservatives tend to fall back on what has worked before. The traditional, known solutions. A safe, predictable solution. I would go so far as to say generally the right solution... Liberals tend to seek new, and ideally better answers. Liberal solutions are inherantly more frought with risk, as there is unknown involved something new and untested. However, without liberalism their is no social progress, no advancement, no innovation. Without Conservatism you don't have a functioning government... They are the yin and yang of society... Nobody is all one way or the other because that would be impracical... The extreemes of both sides of the political spectrum are proven undesirable... Hittler and Fascism on the right... Stalin and Communism on the left.

Conservative - a person who is averse to change and holds to traditional values and attitudes, typically in relation to politics

http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/conservative

Liberal - open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values:

http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/liberal?q=liberal

So when I say Obama is a pragmatic moderate conservatives... It's because of all the things he has continued from the Bush Era...

• Denying Habeas corpus for terror suspects
  
• Military tribunals
  
• Continueing Extraordinary renditions
  
• Continueing Torture policies took no action on reversing bush's redefinition of the word
  
• Assassination of U.S. citizens, yep still going on.
  
• The U.S. PATRIOT Act - renewed
  
• Warrantless wiretapping, still going on.
  
• Militarism, failed to cut military spending in his first term... raised military spending modestly
  
• Continued Bush tax cuts in his first four years in office
  
• Ended the war in Iraq on Bush's timetable.
  
• Ending the war in Afghanistan on Bush's time table.
  
• Renewing the Patriot Acttacks
  
• Renewing even expanding the Drone Attacks
  

Even his signature healthcare bill was at it's heart a reform of the existing dysfunctional healthcare system.. He withdrew the single payer option liberals favored before the debate began, He even withdrew a government funded alternative to keep industry honest. Obama's healthcare plan was first proposed by the Heratage foundation and first tried to pass into law by Nixon in 1972, When Nixon proposed it, It was liberals lead by Ted Kennedy who defeated it.

[twa]

JMS, I guess you mean in your assumption of no imminent threat

guilt has little to do with taking out perceived threats,our assumptions do....and of course authority

we can always argue guilt after the fact