HTTR24-7:Coordinated Chaos- Mike Shanahans History With Defensive Coordinators

[Oldfan]

All that looks good but this 2012 defense has given up the 6th highest point total in the Redskins 80 year history. This defense is being helped a lot by a ball control offense that has tried to eat a ton of clock to keep them off the field.

A lot of ball control? We are 29th in third down conversion percentage.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/third-down-conversion-pct

[Diss]

If its Raheem interesting thing about it is its his unit that's being torched -- granted he's working with bad talent but the secondary was better last year. wonder about Ron Rivera if he's fired. Carolina's defense is decent.

This is what I don't get. Everyone keeps talking about Raheem getting promoted. Why? His secondary is playing horribly. How much of that should fall at Morris' feet vs. Haslett's? This is a good article, though. I thought Haslett's record was better last year than what it was. His record is really pretty sad. Muck like Mike's, ironically enough. Eventually, you are judged by your record and your record alone, injuries and other challenges be damned.

[skins island connection]

How do we know that Haslett is the problem and that somebody else would be better? Everybody knew going into the season that our secondary was a major weakness--we just thought our front 7 was going to be good enough to overcome that. A few key injuries later, coupled with less than stellar play from a few pieces up front has exposed that weakness. None of our corners or safeties are of starting calibur. Thats kind of hard to "coach up" as Spurrier might say.

I'm not a huge Haslett supporter or anything like that, but we get to a point with coaches where we think somebody else will be an automatic improvement. But don't forget that people get coaching positions in the NFL because they know football. Period. Take an honest look at the roster and then think about how much you can polish a turd. There is no magic man thats going to come in here and turn this current crop of players into a great or even good defense. And what justification is there for all those that are screaming for Morris to take over?

Either way, Shanahan is ulimately responsible. We like to ***** about defensive calls that give up big plays and whatnot, but why doesn't Shanahan sit Haslett down and tell him what he wants called at certain times? You think they dont talk about stuff like that? In your job if you make a mistake doesn't the boss come tell you what you did wrong so you don't do it again? We act as though the coordinators are their own bosses--i don't believe that to be true.

Like I said, I'm not any huge supporter of Haslett. But I find it funny that there are so many who assume somebody else will provide some type of miraculous fix. And what about continuity? Haven't we learned through the Snyder area that change isn't always good???

Actually Mike HAS left the defense up to Haslett; and this is the product he's putting on the field.

Not to mention Haslett's history of poor teams/defenses that he's been a part of. If it were 1 or 2 teams where Haslett didn't do well, then I would have a different opinion, but god he's had 10 different positions on alot of different teams, all within the last 12 or so years, and on every one the team or defense which he led was always degressing, if not bottoming out. He couldn't even hold the St. Louis job for more than 2 years before being booted.

Its partly to do with players lack of talent, but more glaring is the bland predictability of his defense which are being pointed out by OPPOSING OFFENSES! That doesn't raise question to his ability, or lack thereof?

[Mahons21]

A lot of ball control? We are 29th in third down conversion percentage.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/third-down-conversion-pct

Not to mention when using as advanced metric like dvoa, the impact a ball control offense has on defensive statistics is greatly reduced.

Ironically he cites total points stat, which is heavily influenced by the offense, and their inability to play ball control. Which hes going to disagree with no matter what stat you show him.

[skins island connection]

How do we know that Haslett is the problem and that somebody else would be better? Everybody knew going into the season that our secondary was a major weakness--we just thought our front 7 was going to be good enough to overcome that. A few key injuries later, coupled with less than stellar play from a few pieces up front has exposed that weakness. None of our corners or safeties are of starting calibur. Thats kind of hard to "coach up" as Spurrier might say.

I'm not a huge Haslett supporter or anything like that, but we get to a point with coaches where we think somebody else will be an automatic improvement. But don't forget that people get coaching positions in the NFL because they know football. Period. Take an honest look at the roster and then think about how much you can polish a turd. There is no magic man thats going to come in here and turn this current crop of players into a great or even good defense. And what justification is there for all those that are screaming for Morris to take over?

Either way, Shanahan is ulimately responsible. We like to ***** about defensive calls that give up big plays and whatnot, but why doesn't Shanahan sit Haslett down and tell him what he wants called at certain times? You think they dont talk about stuff like that? In your job if you make a mistake doesn't the boss come tell you what you did wrong so you don't do it again? We act as though the coordinators are their own bosses--i don't believe that to be true.

Like I said, I'm not any huge supporter of Haslett. But I find it funny that there are so many who assume somebody else will provide some type of miraculous fix. And what about continuity? Haven't we learned through the Snyder area that change isn't always good???

I think I have an analogy which may paint a better picture, being that I am very anal..lol.

Say you have a cousin who is a meth head; he's stayed with 5-6 other relatives, and they've all kicked him out because he was stealing from them to supply his habit.

You take him in, hoping you can change him.

Soon, things begin disappearing from your house; driver one week, fishing rod the next, and so on. Instead of addressing the problem head-on, you have that hope things will change, so instead of kicking him out, you buy a safe to put your valuables in.

More things, less valuable keep disappearing, so you keep putting more and more items in the safe.

At what point do you draw the line; after everything you own is in the pawn shop? Do you continue to be nieve about whats happening, or do you say enough is enough, you have to leave?

*My apologies to anyone who is, or is dealing with a problem of this nature; its a nasty habit, and yes my mind does function differently at times from the norm...

[DogofWar1]

I would say Raheem gets more of a pass than Haslett in terms of their unit.

Raheem has no safeties to speak of, they're all pretty much guys who would be lucky to be on any other team, with maybe the exception of Meriweather, who's been injured. Seriously, we've been trying to get rid of Doughty for like, 3 years, and can't do it because of lack of talent on the back end. Beyond that, he has only two starter level CBs, and one of those (Hall) is very debatable. Basically, of all his players, the only one on the field right now I'd have consistent faith in would be Wilson.

We also have to remember that Morris doesn't call the coverages and plays, Haslett does. Haslett can make the argument he's working with a lack of talent, but he's got to take responsibility for play calling problems, which we do have.

Ron Rivera would be an interesting pickup if he's fired, but he only ran the 3-4 for a couple years. Even when he became HC, he didn't stick with it, he switched back to the 4-3, so I'm not sure how well he'd do here. Good 3-4 coaches seem to be few and far between atm.

[Lavarleap56]

A lot of ball control? We are 29th in third down conversion percentage.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/third-down-conversion-pct

Yeah it's no secret we are not a good third down team. That doesn't mean we don't try to take air out of the football to keep our defense off the field.

I'm also not sure if your third down conversion rate is a accurate judge. The team does very well on 1st and 2nd down plus goes for it on 4th down a lot as well.

The team also #1 in fewest punts offensively while the defense is 28th in fewest punts forced.

[Oldfan]

Not to mention when using as advanced metric like dvoa, the impact a ball control offense has on defensive statistics is greatly reduced.

Ironically he cites total points stat, which is heavily influenced by the offense, and their inability to play ball control. Which hes going to disagree with no matter what stat you show him.

You know how to find them as easily as I can so I won't link them...

I was looking at the drive stats on FO yesterday. Our defense ranks about fifth in takeaways, fumbles caused and interceptions per drive but like 29th on yards and points. This indicates over-aggressiveness which could come from Shanahan's orders being followed by Haslett. The best explanation is that the defense is getting burned on blitzes too often.

[Lavarleap56]

Not to mention when using as advanced metric like dvoa, the impact a ball control offense has on defensive statistics is greatly reduced.

Ironically he cites total points stat, which is heavily influenced by the offense, and their inability to play ball control. Which hes going to disagree with no matter what stat you show him.

That's not true, I actually encourage and love a good football discussion. You linked football outsiders earlier having the D ranked #22 but that's. Tough sell even if I do like their stuff. Pro football focus might be a more realistic ranking at #27 or #28 I believe. Football outsiders had this pass defense ranked 19th which I find hard to support based on the fact they are on pace to allow the most passing yads in NFL history.

Yes I did bring up points as well.. Isn't the defenses goal to limit the amount of points a opponent the scores? Don't we judge defenses on YPG, PPG, Sacks, Turnovers..

[Oldfan]

Yeah it's no secret we are not a good third down team. That doesn't mean we don't try to take air out of the football to keep our defense off the field.

I'm also not sure if your third down conversion rate is a accurate judge. The team does very well on 1st and 2nd down plus goes for it on 4th down a lot as well.

The team also #1 in fewest punts offensively while the defense is 28th in fewest punts forced.

There can't be very many fourth down conversions. I don't know how a team can be doing well at ball control and be 29th in third-down conversions.

[Lavarleap56]

If its Raheem interesting thing about it is its his unit that's being torched -- granted he's working with bad talent but the secondary was better last year. wonder about Ron Rivera if he's fired. Carolina's defense is decent.

Honestly I'm not even sold on Raheem taking over myself. I would prefer a guy with a heavy backround in a 3-4. To be fair the secondary and defensive issues began last season and have really carried over into 2012. Can Raheem do better, yes of course but do I lay the blame at his feet, no.

If Raheem does take over we have to hope he is as smart as everyone says he is and he picked up the philosophy quickly.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 05:43 PM ----------

You know how to find them as easily as I can so I won't link them...

I was looking at the drive stats on FO yesterday. Our defense ranks about fifth in takeaways, fumbles caused and interceptions per drive but like 29th on yards and points. This indicates over-aggressiveness which could come from Shanahan's orders being followed by Haslett. The best explanation is that he defense is getting burned on blitzes too often.

If you go back and watch the games you will see a majority of the turnovers are more luck of the draw vs anything the scheme aided. Caused Fumbles the defense was pretty good at forcing early in the year and that's a plus. Interceptions have been off just bad throws from Qbs feeling no pressure, Jackson vs Cincinnati and Gomes in NO excluded.

Regardless of how the state and turnover is a plus. The issue is how sustainable are they based off not being pressure forced.

[Oldfan]

...Yes I did bring up points as well.. Isn't the defenses goal to limit the amount of points a opponent the scores? Don't we judge defenses on YPG, PPG, Sacks, Turnovers..

Those stats are misleading. Greg Blache's unit looked good on the points rankings because his unit played bend but don't break which allows the opponent to play ball control and keep our offense off the field

Meanwhile, Zorn was playing ball control which helped the defense hold the points down. The result was low scoring games with our defense working against the offense.

[Lavarleap56]

There can't be very many fourth down conversions. I don't know how a team can be doing well at ball control and be 29th in third-down conversions.

The offense picks up a lot of firsts know 1st & 2nd..Think we are at 12/12 on 4th down conversions or something close. I wasn't trying to label the skins as ball control but you can see the game plan is to keep their defense off the field as much as possible.

[Oldfan]

The offense picks up a lot of firsts know 1st & 2nd..Think we are at 12/12 on 4th down conversions or something close. I wasn't trying to label the skins as ball control but you can see the game plan is to keep their defense off the field as much as possible.

The opening drive against the Giants...19 plays...short passes mixed with runs... I thought,"Wow! This team actually CAN play ball control! Other than that, I haven't really noticed it.

[DC9]

The offense picks up a lot of firsts know 1st & 2nd..Think we are at 12/12 on 4th down conversions or something close. I wasn't trying to label the skins as ball control but you can see the game plan is to keep their defense off the field as much as possible.

I believe we are 7 for 8 or 8 for 9. Either way we missed the last one in the Pittsburgh game.

We've been very good on 4th down this year.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 02:08 PM ----------

The opening drive against the Giants...19 plays...short passes mixed with runs... I thought,"Wow! This team actually CAN play ball control! Other than that, I haven't really noticed it.

Didn't that drive start on the 5 or so? You have to have the field to do it OF.

One thing that Robert does very well, is he uses the clock throughout the game better than any QB we've had here since I've been alive. He always gets the team to the line with about 10-15 seconds left and always gets the snap off with 5 or less left.

[GWinSkins83]

On last weeks’ game against the Pittsburgh Steelers:

Haslett- “Well, obviously we weren’t pleased with the way we played and the outcome. That’s something we’ll deal with every week.”

Good to know that they wont be pleased with how they play and the outcome of every game for the rest of the year.... Hate that quote

Get him out LL I know you got the "Juice" to get it done. This sucka has waved the white flag.

[Lavarleap56]

Those stats are misleading. Greg Blache's unit looked good on the points rankings because his unit played bend but don't break which allows the opponent to play ball control and keep our offense off the field

Meanwhile, Zorn was playing ball control which helped the defense hold the points down. The result was low scoring games with our defense working against the offense.

I am very familiar with Blaches defense. I would like to know how all the basic defensive stats are misleading? And If they are misleading then why did the coaches in the OP get fired when their PPG and YPG climbed?

I'm a fan of advanced stats but some carry more weight with me than others.

[Oldfan]

I am very familiar with Blaches defense. I would like to know how all the basic defensive stats are misleading? And If they are misleading then why did the coaches in the OP get fired when their PPG and YPG climbed?

If your assumption is correct -- if those coaches got fired because their stats climbed -- then it's because the person doing the firing didn't understand how those stats can be misleading.

If you coach defense with an eye on a higher ranking on the points stat, you will pick strategy A. If you coach with an eye on helping your team win games, you will select a different strategy.

You can raise your ranking on the points against stat by a strategy that lowers the score for BOTH teams. That's what Blache's unit did. That doesn't help your team win.

[Bishop Hammer]

If Raheem Morris really is the next in line for the DC job, it makes sense to me to make the change after the game this weekend. That would allow 2 weeks for players to get used to it. Plus, it would give him a jumpstart on next year. Also, if he totally bombs out, the door is still open to bring in someone else this coming offseason.

If he's not, then let Haslett finish out the year and move on.

I don't think Morris is the answer either. His defenses werent barn burners while he was in Tampa. And the secondary, his part of the defense, is the worst unit. Somehow, I feel giving him more control over the enitre D wouldn't be an improvement.

[Lavarleap56]

If your assumption is correct -- if those coaches got fired because their stats climbed -- then it's because the person doing the firing didn't understand how those stats can be misleading.

If you coach defense with an eye on a higher ranking on the points stat, you will pick strategy A. If you coach with an eye on helping your team win games, you will select a different strategy.

You can raise your ranking on the points against stat by a strategy that lowers the score for BOTH teams. That's what Blache's unit did. That doesn't help your team win.

Every defense sets out to limit PPG, YPG, and force turnovers.. These are not misleading they are the baseline to how a defense is measured. Any strategy that was not concerned with PPG allowed is a flawed one.

And here is our defenses philosophy on PPG ,Yardage,Turnovers ect...

[darrelgreenie]

I would love to see a different DC, but I don't think Haslett is the 'problem' per se. Like many coaches I think he's good enough to win given enough talent.

I think the current problem on defense stems from the lack of talent due to injury, lack of depth exposed by injury, FA penalty and the offseason prioritization and the failure to find a disruptive DL through draft or FA (which imo is a by product of our GM/player acquisition).

[Oldfan]

Every defense sets out to limit PPG, YPG, and force turnovers.. These are not misleading they are the baseline to how a defense is measured. Any strategy that was not concerned with PPG allowed is a flawed one.

And here is our defenses philosophy on PPG ,Yardage,Turnovers ect...

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb404/lavarleap56/3-ef7c851697.jpg

I'd be willing to bet my last dollar that every defense isn't coached that way because Bill Bellichik and Jim Schwartz understand statistics. They both majored in Economics. Schwartz has been quoted on Football Outsiders about the deceptive nature of the NFL's yardage stats.

Your best strategy for leading the NFL in the lowest PPG and your best strategy for leading the league in lowest YPG would be in direct conflict.

Your best strategy for leading the league in takeaways would cause you to be over-agressive. Good offenses burn over-aggressive defenses. You would be giving your opponent a better opportunity to come from behind and beat you.

If our defense is being coached that way, we have discovered part of the problem.

[darrelgreenie]

I guess finding another OC would be the best way to find a new DL coach and LBs coach.

I think those 2 coaches aren't holding up their end. Then again I don't know how much autonomy Haslett gives them. But to my eye Slowick's LBs aren't good in zone coverage drops or recognition, they don't mix it up shuffle positions and rarely overload. Jacobs's DL is very static but lacks the individual talent to make an impact without the help of scheme: stunting, slanting, shooting gaps

[KCClybun]

I would love to see a different DC, but I don't think Haslett is the 'problem' per se. Like many coaches I think he's good enough to win given enough talent.

I think every coach would love to have a unit filled with nothing but Pro Bowl talent that stayed healthy for an entire season. The fact is, most defenses are lucky to have one elite defensive player, much less several in every level of the defense.

Like most teams, defenses are usually composed of guys; not guys who are going to make the Pro Bowl, not guys who dominate, not All Pro's. Just guys. Losing Rak and Carriker hurts, and we could all said here all day and talk about what might've been if we had taken J.J Watt instead of Ryan Kerrigan. The fact is, this is the hand that we've been dealt; we're dealing with some crappy injuries, but ever football team deals with crappy injuries. The good teams and good coaches overcome. They find a way to make it work.

Haslett has simply thrown up his hands. It's the only way to explain how he calls this defense. Clearly, the strength of this team is not coverage. Clearly, without Rak and Carriker, the pass rush from the d-line is not what it used to be.

So you have a defensive secondary who has trouble in coverage, and a d-line that's struggling with the pass rush. So what defense do you call?

Because Haslett has taken two negatives on our team, and he's decided the best way to deal with the problem is to magnify them by forcing a d-line that has trouble rushing the passer to do it by themselves while we drop a secondary (and linebackers for that matter) who struggle to cover into coverage for 5-10 seconds. I am sorry, blame it on the talent if ya want, but if everything in this defense was the same except we had J.J Watt or insert-name-of-pass-rushing-defensive lineman here---and it doesn't seem to matter to anyone that in a 3-4, the d-line is not supposed to be the primary source of pass rush, unless you're playing the Wade Phillips one gap style---it'd still be a recipe for disaster.

Complain about the talent if you'd like, but this scheme isn't being used to the best of it's ability. The talent is always going to fail when the coach makes the conscious decision to highlight it's negatives because he's too terrified of getting beat. Kyle Shanahan may be a huge ****ing bonehead for that pass to Robert Griffin III, but at least he had the balls to try it. I'll take failing with balls over calls with not guts any day.

[darrelgreenie]

I think every coach would love to have a unit filled with nothing but Pro Bowl talent that stayed healthy for an entire season.

Your response to my post begin with a strawman which you proceed to respond to as if that was my point.