Momma There Goes That Man Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 LeBron definitely gets more unfair hate than Kobe.I certainly think Kobe's somewhere in the bottom of the top 10 ever, but, I think as a player, he's a little overrated. MJ is a tad overrated but is still the best ever IMO. You can be overrated and still be the best. I just think, if someone were to say, they'd take a healthy prime Wade over Kobe (say, age 23-30), everyone would spin heads but the stats support the argument. This is why stats can betray you, I don't see how anyone watching those two during those years would pick Wade over Kobe. Especially since Wade was injured so much through that time also. Kobe has had some injuries too but he always plays through them if at all possible. I remember Wade being taken off the court in a wheelchair after injuring his shoulder. I'll take the warrior any day, and it helps when he is also the much better basketball player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Kobe Bryant is like Larry Holmes. He's one of the greatest of his generation, but his generation of players is so poorly thought of it really rules him out of any discussion of the greatest of all time. Michael Jordan also suffers from this syndrome when compared with Russel and Wilt, or certainly Bird and Magic. The difference is Jordan dominated his era so convincingly he still gets his props; Kobe really hasn't dominated like Jordan, and he hasn't had the great rivalry that Bird and Magic or Russel and Wilt had. Thus yes Kobe is overrated if you try to say he's one of the greatest of all time. He's merely one of the greatest of his era, his era being a poor one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 If I had to pick Kobe or Lebron in their prime, I'd pick Black Mamba. LeBron is in his prime so that's premature and he is a superior player to Kobe. I mean it's not even close. He is just as good a scorer but way more efficient, a much better defender, much better passer, better rebounder though he's a forward so that's irrelevant, and now a champion and Finals MVP. He's also a better playoff performer. Curious as to why you'd take Kobe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Kobe Bryant is like Larry Holmes. He's one of the greatest of his generation, but his generation of players is so poorly thought of it really rules him out of any discussion of the greatest of all time.Michael Jordan also suffers from this syndrome when compared with Russel and Wilt, or certainly Bird and Magic. The difference is Jordan dominated his era so convincingly he still gets his props; Kobe really hasn't dominated like Jordan, and he hasn't had the great rivalry that Bird and Magic or Russel and Wilt had. Thus yes Kobe is overrated if you try to say he's one of the greatest of all time. He's merely one of the greatest of his era, his era being a poor one. Kobe's generation of players is poorly thought of? Shaq? Duncan? Dirk? Iverson? Nash? And how has Kobe not dominated his generation? 5 NBA titles look pretty good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 LeBron is in his prime so that's premature and he is a superior player to Kobe. I mean it's not even close. He is just as good a scorer but way more efficient, a much better defender, much better passer, better rebounder though he's a forward so that's irrelevant, and now a champion and Finals MVP. He's also a better playoff performer. All of this. Even before this year, I would take Lebron over Kobe. His impact on a game is just bigger than Kobe's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 For me Lebron is overrated. Im not trying to knock on the guy, his a BEAST/ MONSTER of an athlete. I don't think his much of a shooter. I remember his McDonalds all-american dunk contest. Power, no creative ability in the air. Im still picking Kobe not because he has less strength than Lebron or that he can't play as many positions as Lebron, but Finishing, Wins, Shooting ability, creativity and taking it to the rim. Now yes, Lebron has the ability to take it to the rim, but Kobe's has the wins and finishes, and Id rather give him the ball at the end of a game. Kobe is like Michael Jordan Jr. just not above him I almost say its a toss up between Wade and Lebron, then I may be pushing it Wade from 23-30 was better than Kobe from 23-30. Stats support it. Great as he's been, I can't take Kobe because he's more creative in the air over a guy who will give you 27/7/7 while being a potential DPOTY. But that's just me of course. You are right about Lebron being a boring dunker though. Snooze fest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsiaticSkinsFan Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Wade from 23-30 was better than Kobe from 23-30. Stats support it. Great as he's been, I can't take Kobe because he's more creative in the air over a guy who will give you 27/7/7 while being a potential DPOTY. But that's just me of course. You are right about Lebron being a boring dunker though. Snooze fest. this is just over the top:ols: "creative in the air" Wade was not better than Kobe in their primes at all. ---------- Post added August-21st-2012 at 11:57 AM ---------- Kobe Bryant is like Larry Holmes. He's one of the greatest of his generation, but his generation of players is so poorly thought of it really rules him out of any discussion of the greatest of all time.Michael Jordan also suffers from this syndrome when compared with Russel and Wilt, or certainly Bird and Magic. The difference is Jordan dominated his era so convincingly he still gets his props; Kobe really hasn't dominated like Jordan, and he hasn't had the great rivalry that Bird and Magic or Russel and Wilt had. Thus yes Kobe is overrated if you try to say he's one of the greatest of all time. He's merely one of the greatest of his era, his era being a poor one. the depths people are going to downplay Kobe's career Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 this is just over the top:ols:"creative in the air" Wade was not better than Kobe in their primes at all. ---------- Post added August-21st-2012 at 11:57 AM ---------- the depths people are going to downplay Kobe's career I'll support it statistically when I get back from lunch. Then we can debate intangibles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Kobe is an all-time great no doubt, but he's also been blessed to play with some other awesome players. I don't know if there is another player in NBA history who's had more established great players join his team via FA/trades then Kobe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Kobe's generation of players is poorly thought of? Shaq? Duncan? Dirk? Iverson? Nash? And how has Kobe not dominated his generation? 5 NBA titles look pretty good to me. Shaq is < Russel, Wilt, or Karem. Shaq didn't dominate the game from his position like the great centers did in the 60's 70's and 80's... Duncan is a great player, maybe the best power forward ever, but he plays in San Antonio, a backwater of the nba and the nation. He's an afterthought, most fans don't get to see him on any sort of consistent basis. There cetainly is no rivalry there with Kobe like Bird and Magic or Wilt and Russel. Dirk? - 1 NBA Championship... really that's who you think Kobe has a rivalry with for one of the greatest of all time. Iverson? - Iverson was a great great scorer, and an entertaining player to watch, but his game was on dimentional and that's reflected in the fact only one of his teams got to the finals. Great player, not one of the greatest of all time. Nash? - Can't base a claim to one of the greatest of all time solely on assists. Look who Bird and Magic used as cannon fodder for them basically splitting a decade worth of championships... Julius Erving - Dr. J. (*) Moses Malone (*) Charles Barkley Dominique Wilkins a Young Michael Jordan The young bad boys of Detroit ( for several years ). Patrick Ewing Daryl Dawkins Hakeem Olajuwon (young) Jack Sikma George Gervin Artis Gilmore Ralph Sampson Marques Johnson Michael Ray Richardson Sidney Moncrief Bernard King Maurice Cheeks Mark Aguirre Clyde Drexler Adrian Dantley Isiah Thomas (young) Alex English Those guys are what passed for the second tier of talent in the NBA in the 80's... The competition in the 80's was amazing. It really was the golden era of the NBA.. 90's and beyond really hasn't got back to that. Can you imagine a guy like Michael Jordan winning 4 consecutive scoring titles and getting frozen out of the championship game, even being an afterthought in the playoffs cause the competition was so awesome... That doesn't happen today. (*) Won One title in the 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amm0409 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 LeBron is in his prime so that's premature and he is a superior player to Kobe. I mean it's not even close. He is just as good a scorer but way more efficient, a much better defender, much better passer, better rebounder though he's a forward so that's irrelevant, and now a champion and Finals MVP. He's also a better playoff performer. Curious as to why you'd take Kobe. Better Playoff performer? I guess we could sit here and argue that for awhile. Kobe has more rings. Lebron in last years finals when they lost to Mavericks in my opinion was horrible. Didn't he have two games where he scored just eight points. If I have both Kobe and Lebron on the same team, Kobe is taking the last shot. Lebron's percentages might be slightly higher, but Kobe takes much more shots. Again Im not hear to knock on Lebron, I just don't what the hype is all about. Now Lebron still has room to make his legacy even more. As of late, he has been playing very well (attacking the rim). I do think Durant was last years MVP but King James got that. And the NBA today isn't like it was even in the 90's and earlier. ---------- Post added August-21st-2012 at 12:29 PM ---------- Kobe is an all-time great no doubt, but he's also been blessed to play with some other awesome players. I don't know if there is another player in NBA history who's had more established great players join his team via FA/trades then Kobe. No question about that:) Larry, Magic all had greats as well play with them. I think Kobe and Lebron have had ridiculous talent around them more so that the first two I said and more than Jordan. All three players on Miami have 100 million dollar contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I mean look at all the great players that joined Kobe via trade/FA: Shaq Gasol Artest Nash Howard Malone Payton Okay Malone and Payton were past their primes at that time, but still. And that isn't even factoring in great players that were already there when Kobe first joined. Guys like Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Robert Horry, Rick Fox, etc.Yeah other all-time great players had some real good supporting casts, but I can't think of anyone who's had as many as Kobe had. The few years in which he didn't, his teams were one and done. For comparison sakes, Lebron took some pretty terrible Cavs teams deep into the playoffs. Again, Kobe is an all-time great player, no doubt about it. But I think people would look at him differently if Charlotte never traded his draft rights... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I mean look at all the great players that joined Kobe via trade/FA:Shaq Gasol Artest Nash Howard Malone Payton Okay Malone and Payton were past their primes at that time, but still. And that isn't even factoring in great players that were already there when Kobe first joined. Guys like Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Robert Horry, Rick Fox, etc.Yeah other all-time great players had some real good supporting casts, but I can't think of anyone who's had as many as Kobe had. The few years in which he didn't, his teams were one and done. For comparison sakes, Lebron took some pretty terrible Cavs teams deep into the playoffs. Again, Kobe is an all-time great player, no doubt about it. But I think people would look at him differently if Charlotte never traded his draft rights... Not to mention Kwama Brown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Wade from 23-30 was better than Kobe from 23-30. Stats support it. See, now I don't know how to respond to this. You are probably right, but could be wrong. :whoknows: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 Better Playoff performer? I guess we could sit here and argue that for awhile. Kobe has more rings. Lebron in last years finals when they lost to Mavericks in my opinion was horrible. Didn't he have two games where he scored just eight points. If I have both Kobe and Lebron on the same team, Kobe is taking the last shot. Rings are won by a team, not a player. Kobe has been blessed to be thrown the most dominant player ever, a top 10 center and the best center in the game/one of the best defensive players ever on his squads. MJ, in comparison was only thrown one other elite all-around player in his tenure and that's Scottie. Rodman you could count also but he was a super defensive/rebound specialist, not a 20/10 big man which has proven to be the key ingredient to titles for decades in the NBA. Lebron just finished one of the greatest postseason runs ever. He also single-handedly took the Cavs to the NBA Finals. That has to be the worst NBA Finals team ever. Booby Gibson...Donyelle Marshall, lol. That Game 6 vs. DET is one of the best playoff games ever and his Game 6 vs. Boston this past season is pretty much better than anything Kobe's done in the playoffs, even that game in the first three-peat when Shaq fouled out and he took over. LeBron did come up VERY short vs. Dallas but he also massacred Chicago the series before. Let's check the stats and i'll even throw out Kobe's first couple years to make it even an amusing argument. LeBron's playoff stats: 28.5 ppg 8.7 rpg 6.7 apg | Career playoff PER: 27.1 | Win Shares per 48 minutes in the playoffs: 0.234 | True Shooting % = 0.564 Kobe's playoff stats (from 99-00 onward) 25.6 ppg 5.1 rpg 4.7 apg | Career playoff PER: 23.0 | Win shares per 48 minutes in the playoffs: 0.166 | True Shooting % = 0.543 LeBron is clearly the better playoff performer. He has 1 ring and more are on the way in all likelihood. Kobe's best playoff PER is 26.8. LeBron has had playoff PER's of 29, 31.7, 31, 30 (these are MJ #'s) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amm0409 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 ^I told you his percentages are a little better I could just give you regular season and playoffs 4th quarter etc... Kobe has more FGA and 3PA again we could go at this forever. But Lebron has D. Wayde and C. Bosh. An elite and one of the greats at two guard and one of the best big men in the league. Heck, could be argued as the best. His a consistent shooter etc... May 16, 2012 ---------- Post added August-21st-2012 at 01:58 PM ---------- LeBron is clearly the better playoff performer. He has 1 ring and more are on the way in all likelihood. Kobe's best playoff PER is 26.8. LeBron has had playoff PER's of 29, 31.7, 31, 30 (these are MJ #'s) MJ numbers? MJ never scored 8 points ever in a Finals Game your kidding me. I have to check but he never scored under 20 and I think it was 23 was his lowest. And Mike is 6-6 in NBA Finals and 6 MVP's Finals Averages 31.2, 35.8, 41.0, 27.3, 32.3, 33.5 average of 33.6 Lebron Finals Stats Game 2 vs Dallas 19 points, game 3: 17 points, game 4: 8 points, game 5: 17 points, game 6: 21 points vs Jordan? Jordans three first NBA Championships he never scored under 26 points which he did one time as well as 28 points and 29 in all the games in his first 3 NBA FINAL Championships He then leaves NBA and comes back, He never scored less than 22 points in a finals game which he did twice, then he had one game of 23, 24 and 29 two games of 26 and 28. Everything was higher Lebron Doesn't compare at All, LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Boi, you sure do love that PER stat. I am not saying it is a bad stat, but sometimes you gotta look deeper. But not in this ^2 situation.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Shaq is < Russel, Wilt, or Karem. Shaq didn't dominate the game from his position like the great centers did in the 60's 70's and 80's...Duncan is a great player, maybe the best power forward ever, but he plays in San Antonio, a backwater of the nba and the nation. He's an afterthought, most fans don't get to see him on any sort of consistent basis. There cetainly is no rivalry there with Kobe like Bird and Magic or Wilt and Russel. Dirk? - 1 NBA Championship... really that's who you think Kobe has a rivalry with for one of the greatest of all time. Iverson? - Iverson was a great great scorer, and an entertaining player to watch, but his game was on dimentional and that's reflected in the fact only one of his teams got to the finals. Great player, not one of the greatest of all time. Nash? - Can't base a claim to one of the greatest of all time solely on assists. Look who Bird and Magic used as cannon fodder for them basically splitting a decade worth of championships... Julius Erving - Dr. J. (*) Moses Malone (*) Charles Barkley Dominique Wilkins a Young Michael Jordan The young bad boys of Detroit ( for several years ). Patrick Ewing Daryl Dawkins Hakeem Olajuwon (young) Jack Sikma George Gervin Artis Gilmore Ralph Sampson Marques Johnson Michael Ray Richardson Sidney Moncrief Bernard King Maurice Cheeks Mark Aguirre Clyde Drexler Adrian Dantley Isiah Thomas (young) Alex English Those guys are what passed for the second tier of talent in the NBA in the 80's... The competition in the 80's was amazing. It really was the golden era of the NBA.. 90's and beyond really hasn't got back to that. Can you imagine a guy like Michael Jordan winning 4 consecutive scoring titles and getting frozen out of the championship game, even being an afterthought in the playoffs cause the competition was so awesome... That doesn't happen today. (*) Won One title in the 80's. Let's recheck this list in 20 years when all the players of this era are either HOF or have had amazing careers as well and we can say Kobe won at least 5 rings in an era of: Shaq O'Neal Tim Duncan Lebron James Dwayne Wade Carmello Anthony Dirk Nowitski Dwight Howard Allen Iverson Tracy McGrady Steve Nash Chris Paul Deron Williams Rajon Rondo Paul Pierce Kevin Garnett Ray Allen(young) Tony Parker Chris Bosh Kevin Durant Russell Westbrook Kevin Love The Chris Webber Kings not to mention overlapping for the last 3 Bulls rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Let's recheck this list in 20 years when all the players of this era are either HOF or have had amazing careers as well and we can say Kobe won at least 5 rings in an era of: Please Did Kobe win the first 3 or did Shaq? How many Finals MVP's did Kobe get when Shaq was on the team? ZERO!.. that's how many. Kobe was a great player who played for an even greater franchise... If you left him on the Hornets he would have turned into Alex English. I have no problem classifying Kobe as one of the greatest of his Era. But no chance is he up in the top 5 much less challenging for #1. Shaq O'Neal Tim Duncan Lebron James Dwayne Wade Carmello Anthony Dirk Nowitski Dwight Howard Allen Iverson Tracy McGrady Steve Nash Chris Paul Deron Williams Rajon Rondo Paul Pierce Kevin Garnett Ray Allen(young) Tony Parker Chris Bosh Kevin Durant Russell Westbrook Kevin Love The Chris Webber Kings not to mention overlapping for the last 3 Bulls rings. Overlapping meaning they killed him.... Your list not as impressive as mine from the 80's. Not even close... My biggest knock on Kobe Bryant is he's a horrible leader. He's a head case, a loner, and he undermines his coaches... You look at Bird, Russel, or Magic... those guys made everybody around them better. Kobe hurts the players around him, he talks smack about them in the press, he ignores them, he throws tantrums if the coach doesn't do what he says... That's why he's over rated. not cause of his talent, but because of his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 this is just over the top:ols:"creative in the air" Wade was not better than Kobe in their primes at all. ---------- Post added August-21st-2012 at 11:57 AM ---------- the depths people are going to downplay Kobe's career See, now I don't know how to respond to this. You are probably right, but could be wrong. :whoknows: Let's take a look at their stats from age 23-30: Kobe: 28.7 ppg 5.8 rpg 5.3 apg | FG - 45.5% | True Shooting - 0.561% | PER - 25.0 | Win Shares/48 mins - 0.201 | Assist % - 25.4 Wade: 26.2 ppg 5.2 rpg 6.4 apg | FG - 48.7 % | True Shooting - 0.569% | PER - 26.6 | Win Shares/48 mins - 0.205 | Assist % - 33.7 Wade was a more efficient player, a smarter shooter, I won't say better because Kobe is a superior 3 pt shooter, and a better team player. Kobe was routinely on All-NBA Defensive 1st Teams and I'll give him that but Wade actually has more defensive win shares in this time span. It's all reputation. The thing with Kobe is, people marvel when he scores 50 or 60 but then ignore the countless games in between where he goes 10-35 for 22 points. You cannot ignore that. And there are A LOT of those games. Now if we want to get off the statistic train; Kobe I'd give a clutch rating of A, Wade a B+ during that time. Lest we forget Wade carried Miami to a championship in 2006 with a better performance (albeit referee helped) than Kobe has ever had in a playoff series or run for that matter. Wade's PER of 33.8 in the 2006 finals is the highest ever since the merger. Yes, including MJ although I'd dispute if it was really the best performance. Kobe is not in the top 10 with any Finals performances. Speaking of playoffs, Wade gets more separation here: Wade: PER: 24.9 | FG - 48.1% | True Shooting - 0.565% | WS/48 - 0.193 Kobe: PER - 23.0 | FG - 44.8 % | True Shooting - 0.543% | WS/48 - 0.164 Wade also has more defensive win shares in the playoffs. So, there is actually a pretty damn good claim to Wade being the superior player unless you obsess over individual games where one guy goes off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amm0409 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Overlapping meaning they killed him.... Your list not as impressive as mine from the 80's. Not even close... Agree, and I still think the past NBA had better shooters. Todays NBA is just too much for me to explain. So, there is actually a pretty damn good claim to Wade being the superior player unless you obsess over individual games where one guy goes off. Do you know the FGA between, Wade, Lebron and Kobe? be interesting to see. Im assuming Kobe has more attempts, and his field goal percentage would be down. Feel like todays shooters aren't like that of the past, but anyways. Take a look at the numbers between MJ and Lebron in NBA Finals put some up there at the top ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 [Numbers and stuff]So, there is actually a pretty damn good claim to Wade being the superior player unless you obsess over individual games where one guy goes off. I guess I needed to see the numbers. But the results still doesn't feel right to me for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 I guess I needed to see the numbers. But the results still doesn't feel right to me for some reason. Championships are why it doesn't seem right. But the numbers don't lie, it's at least a discussion. Lol " numbers and stuff" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 Agree, and I still think the past NBA had better shooters. Todays NBA is just too much for me to explain.Do you know the FGA between, Wade, Lebron and Kobe? be interesting to see. Im assuming Kobe has more attempts, and his field goal percentage would be down. Feel like todays shooters aren't like that of the past, but anyways. Take a look at the numbers between MJ and Lebron in NBA Finals put some up there at the top ! Kobe shoots more because he spent over half his career being selfish as hell. That's not an excuse for being not as efficient is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Championships are why it doesn't seem right. But the numbers don't lie, it's at least a discussion.Lol " numbers and stuff" Maybe, but I always give Kobe less credits for his championships than I would for somebody like Wade*, Jordan, Lebron, etc. Because none had dominant big men. *Yes, I know Wade had Shaq, but come on. Don't kid yourself. How do their stats look the last three years. I know Wade has had his injuries, but I just want to know if that is the reason I am so skeptical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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