NRO: What We Can Do in Libya

[visionary]

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE72D0YN20110314

ISTANBUL, March 14 (Reuters) - NATO member Turkey on Monday said it opposed growing international calls to impose a no-fly zone over Libya, saying such operation would be unhelpful and fraught with risk.

"Military intervention by NATO in Libya or any other country would be totally counter-productive," Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, whose country is the only Muslim member of NATO, told an international forum in Istanbul.

Erdogan spoke as France stepped up efforts to persuade world powers to impose a no-fly zone and after the Arab League gave a regional seal of approval NATO has said is vital for any military action.

France, hosting a Group of Eight foreign ministers later on Monday, along with Britain has led calls for a no-fly zone.

I'm getting so tired of Turkey's whining and cozying up to dictators.

It seems like all they ever do is complain about NATO operations and threaten to go to war and make buddies with leaders of Iran, Libya, etc.

Every year they seem to get worse and worse.

Erdogan told the channel he expected Gaddafi, who has been in power for more than four decades, to take "positive steps in this direction".

"I called Gaddafi three times and I proposed to him that all the while he says that he is not a president, that he nominates someone picked by him who enjoys the support of the Libyan people to be the president for the coming period," Erdogan said.

Unfortunately Gaddafi doesn't know anyone who enjoys the actual support of the Libyan people.

---------- Post added March-14th-2011 at 12:45 PM ----------

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-14

6:41pm The UN Security Council is meeting on Monday to consider options on Libya but no resolution is expected yet.

Scott Heidler, Al Jazeera's correspondent at the UN headquarters in New York, said the Security Council is going to be discussing a viewpoint on the no-fly zone resolution - that they don't yet have a draft resolution.

"They are taking the temperature of the other members to see what kind of draft they can put together now," he said.

"The French and the British are behind this resolution. They are saying because of the Arab League resolution encouraging the UN Security Council to pass a resolution calling for a no-fly zone - that it's not just coming from them now, it's also coming from these 22 Arab nations...

"These discussions will go on at least for today, maybe in couple of days we will see some kind of draft resolution but there are still a lot of hurdles to overcome."

[visionary]

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-14

7:48pm AP reports: Supporters of a no-fly zone over Libya say they will try to quickly introduce a UN resolution that would authorise it, but getting Security Council approval is likely to take time.

[visionary]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12731079

Our correspondent says that France was hoping an agreement on such a zone would be a game-changer, but that other countries remained cautious.

Diplomats said these included not only Russia and China, who traditionally oppose international intervention, but also the US, Germany, South Africa and Brazil, our correspondent says.

After Monday's meeting, Russian UN envoy Vitaly Churkin said that questions remained about a no-fly zone, but indicated that Moscow had not ruled out the proposal.

Nato has previously cited regional and international support for the idea as a key condition before it could possibly go ahead.

Turkey, the only Muslim member of Nato, has strongly opposed the idea, warning that foreign military intervention could create "dangerous results".

British Prime Minister David Cameron continued to press for action, saying Col Gaddafi should not be allowed to continue "brutalising his own people".

In a statement to the British House of Commons, he did not rule out the possibility of arming the Libyan rebels - although he acknowledged that there were difficulties, including the continuing UN arms embargo.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-14

10:30pm

The UN Security Council wrangled over calls from Britain and France for a Libya no-fly zone with Russia insisting "fundamental questions" remain over the proposal.

Because of the split between the international powers, the Security Council will need several days to agree new action, diplomats said.

However Britain and France are already working on a draft resolution which they hope to present to the council as soon as possible.

So far from what I've been hearing today, US and Canada are two of the main speedbumps to international action in Libya.

[twa]

So far from what I've been hearing today, US and Canada are two of the main speedbumps to international action in Libya.

You ignore Russia and China

Let the Arabs do it

Back to List

A Joint Arab Force Could Better Enforce a Libya No-Fly-Zone

Riad Kahwaji, CEO, INEGMA

Some Arab defense experts believe it is time for the Arab States to stand up and take responsibilities in their own hands and come to the aid of the Libyans. Retired Major General Khaled Al-Bu Ainnain, former commander of the United Arab Emirates Air Force and Air Defense, believes that some GCC states and Egypt can mount a joint operation and successfully enforce an NFZ over Libya. "The UAE Air Force can deploy couple of squadrons – one F-16 Block 60 and another Mirage 2000-9 – the Saudi Air Force can deploy a couple of F-15S squadrons and Egypt a couple of F-16 squadrons out of Mersi Matrouh Air Base in western Egypt," Al-Bu Ainnain said. "This would provide 120 fighters and attack aircrafts that would be backed with airborne early warning planes like Egyptian E-2C Hawkeye or Saudi AWACS, some unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) for reconnaissance, and air-refueling tankers from Saudi Arabia and couple of Egyptian or UAE helicopter squadrons comp osed of Apache Longbow gunships, Blackhawks and Chinook helicopters, for search and rescue missions." Crews and troops needed for the operation could be quickly airlifted to western Egypt, and even Algeria, within hours using a large fleet of UAE and Egyptian C-130 and Qatari C-17 transporters.

Observers believe the area of operations for any force executing an NFZ over Libya now would be confined to the area between the capital Tripoli and the City of Cert and down south to Sebha in the center. The rest of the country is under rebel control. The Libyan Air Force is comprised of aging Cold War-era Soviet supplied fighters like Su-22, MiG-21 and MiG-23 and one remaining operational Mirage F-1 and some 30 MiMi-24 Helicopter gunships. According to reports out of Libya, only few Su-22 and MiG-23 aircrafts were seen involved in the air raids in addition to MiMi-24 gunships. As for Air Defense, Gadhafi's forces are believed to be in possession of a few batteries of Soviet-era SAM-2, SAM-3 and SAM-6 surface to air missiles. "All of the Libyan Air Defense SAM's and radars can be taken out swiftly by the arsenal of smart weapons and cruise missiles in possession today by GCC and Egyptian Air Forces," Al-Bu Ainnain said. "Runways can be destr oyed with bunker-busters to ground all the jets, and the gunships can be easily destroyed on the ground." He pointed out that GCC and Egyptian Air Forces have considerably enhanced their joint-operations capabilities as a result of almost annual exercises they have done together along with the U.S. and some EU countries. "Issues related to command and control and interoperability would be resolved quickly which would ensure a smooth running of NFZ operations."

Many analysts believe Libyan rebels and the Arab street would be more welcoming of a joint Arab force enforcing NFZ than a Western one. Even Arab street reaction to an operation led by Arab countries would reflect favorably on the concerned governments, and reduce mounting frustration amongst Arabs of seeing their governments weak and indecisive in resolving Arab problems. GCC officials have indicated in their recent statements that a request by the Arab League would be enough to give legitimacy to a NFZ in Libya. Arab troops would be able to operate more easily and effective on the ground in Libya than Westerners due to issues related to language, culture and geography. Most analysts agree an Arab joint force would have more success than a Western one in Libya, provided the joint force gets the needed political commitment regionally and internationally.

http://www.inegma.com/?navigation=reports#

[visionary]

You ignore Russia and China

Let the Arabs do it

Russia and China are taken for granted to be a roadblock, this can be done without their approval if they can not be convinced to pass it.

If the US doesn't want any part of this, it will probably die in the UN and nothing will happen.

It would be nice if the Arabs would help, but there's not much point in expecting something from them here more than they've given.

[twa]

It would be nice if the Arabs would help, but there's not much point in expecting something from them here more than they've given.

Why not??

If they don't care enough to do what they are capable of,why should we?

It's their neighborhood and buddy

[visionary]

Why not??

If they don't care enough to do what they are capable of,why should we?

It's their neighborhood and buddy

Do you actually expect them to do something, or are you just trying to prove a point?

It's possible they might help out, I wouldn't count on them to though.

Why should we help out?

Because we can and because we care.

Not to mention the positive impact on the region it would have, although our image is taking a major hit already because of the way we've dragged out feet.

Honestly many in Libya and the region think we support Gaddafi now because of how slow and anti-action we have been when actually speaking about it.

The more it looks that the US does not care or is siding with Gaddafi, the worse our future in that region will be.

It's already bad enough that we say little about our allies in the area killing their people.

Inaction and refusing to be more vocal will only increase dislike of America and increase chances of terrorism against us in the future.

We can not afford to appear to be siding against freedom and democracy in the area.

But whatever, we'll see what happens.

---------- Post added March-14th-2011 at 09:11 PM ----------

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-15

1:24am Ali Errishi, a former Libyan minister, spoke to Al Jazeera about the situation in Libya.

We are frustrated, the UN should live up to its moral and legal obligations, and do what is right, we are disappointed with the US for not exercising leadership.

People went out to demonstrate peacefully, they were then faced with bullets and with air bombardment. We had to defend ourselves. This fight has been imposed upon us.

The Libyan people made up their mind, it is either victory or death, the rest of the world should know, that there is no room for negations because the other side left no room for negotiations.

[twa]

Oh great a former Qaddafi ass licking minister is offended WE are not doing more.....call in the Marines

You are right not to count on the Arab League for crap(besides spewing it)....as for me...I no longer care to expend blood and treasure for ingrates.

added

I like this

http://lugar.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=331873&

[visionary]

Oh great a former Qaddafi ass licking minister is offended WE are not doing more.....call in the Marines

You are right not to count on the Arab League for crap(besides spewing it)....as for me...I no longer care to expend blood and treasure for ingrates.

added

I like this

http://lugar.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=331873&

I think Gaddafi's former ministers are the least of our problems.

The entire middle East is watching to see how we and others deal with these situations going on there.

The more we come off as if we're helping or supporting those who would rob their people of freedom, the better the chances that it will come back to bite us in the ass majorly down the road.

Not to mention that Libya in the future will likely seek to expand it's power outwards if Gaddafi can hold on here and the international community lets up.

Lugar's a smart guy but he's too old to be a senator.

[twa]

I think Gaddafi's former ministers are the least of our problems.

The entire middle East is watching to see how we and others deal with these situations going on there.

The more we come off as if we're helping or supporting those who would rob their people of freedom, the better the chances that it will come back to bite us in the ass majorly down the road.

Not to mention that Libya in the future will likely seek to expand it's power outwards if Gaddafi can hold on here and the international community lets up.

Is not interfering and providing aid not enough?

We sure as hell didn't put him in power

[visionary]

Is not interfering and providing aid not enough?

We sure as hell didn't put him in power

We have been getting oil from them, although not as much as others.

It does seem unfair to blame us for what's happening or for not coming out more strongly or doing more to help.

On the other hand US officials have been very quiet when they should have been more vocally critical of the regime lately.

Worse most of the recent times US officials have said anything they've been dismissive and critical of the opposition or the things they have asked for instead of Gaddafi. Also there is a growing sense that the US is trying to slow down the efforts of Britain and France and others to get some help for Libya. And of course there was the expectation fair or unfair that the US would personally do or say more to keep Gaddafi from massacring people.

---------- Post added March-15th-2011 at 01:09 AM ----------

http://feb17.info/general/libyan-rebels-arrest-gaddafi-death-squad-that-killed-al-jazeera-journalist-al-jaber/

Tuesday, 15 March 2011

Four men have been arrested for the murder of an Al Jazeera journalist, and rebel officials claim evidence has emerged that Muammar Gaddafi’s regime is sending undercover squads to carry out assassinations.

The Independent was told that four men were caught in the city of Ajdabiya with evidence linking them to the death of Ali Hassan Al Jaber, who was killed near Benghazi on Saturday. Under questioning, the suspects allegedly confessed that they had been ordered to silence opposition figures and drive out international presence from territories of the protest movement.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8381056/Libya-British-women-will-use-table-legs-to-fight-off-Gaddafi.html

As many as 40 expat wives, mothers and grandmothers have stayed in the city despite growing fears of a slaughter if the rebel movement crumbles.

"There are so many of us – British, American, Irish here," said one. "There will come a time when – I met a few friends yesterday, and we all agreed – if we thought the men were going to be killed off that we would want out ... because he's just going to slaughter us all – all of us.

"He's going to slaughter Benghazi, and that's a million people."

"People should be free to say what they want. Here, you teach your kids to keep their mouths shut. You teach them not to say things unless they are somewhere where you know it won't be repeated," said an American mother, who had also opted to stay.

Every day they hear fresh tales of beatings, shootings or imprisonment from friends or family elsewhere in the country.

"A man called me, saying his wife had just been killed, and I have a baby. And I have no milk for the baby. My baby's dying of hunger," she said, tears welling in her eyes before expressing her anger at the world for failing to impose a no-fly zone. "And nobody's doing anything ..."

[visionary]

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/201131542757285681.html#

Commanders of Libyan forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi, vowed to push deeper into rebel-held territory as they pressed closer to the opposition stronghold of Benghazi, while diplomatic efforts to impose a no-fly zone made little headway.

On Monday, France pressured G8 foreign ministers at a meeting in Paris, to formalise a move on Libya and back its efforts to speed up a UN Security Council decision on imposing a no-fly zone over the country to prevent Gaddafi forces from using warplanes, but the effort hit snags as partners such as Germany raised doubts.

Guido Westerwelle, German foreign minister called for urgent talks in the Security Council for targeted sanctions on Gaddafi's government, but voiced opposition towards military action.

"We are very sceptical about a military intervention and a no-fly zone is a military intervention," he told reporters after the dinner with G8 counterparts.

In the end, a divided Security Council failed to produce a consensus among its 15 members on a no-fly zone, and Russia said it had questions about the proposal.

"Fundamental questions need to be answered, not just what we need to do, but how it's going to be done," Vitaly Churkin, Russian ambassador, said in New York.

Hillary Clinton, US secretary of state, also held a late-night, 45-minute meeting in Paris, on Monday, with Mahmoud Jibril, a senior Libyan opposition figure, after discussing the widening crisis with French President Nicolas Sarkozy.

The Arab League on Saturday endorsed a no-fly zone, and its decision satisfies one of three conditions set by the Western NATO alliance for it to police Libyan air space, which is the need for regional support. The other two are proof that its help is needed and a Security Council resolution.

Nawaf Salam, Lebanese ambassador, sole Arab representative on the council, said Lebanon wanted it to act as fast as possible.

"We think it is not only a legitimate request, it is a necessary request," he said. "Measures ought to be taken to stop the violence, to put an end to the ... situation in Libya, to protect the civilians there."

[visionary]

11:09am G8 ministers and UN discuss Libya no-fly zone - Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley and Barnaby Phillips talk about how crucial it is for the rebels and if the world leaders are any close to a decision or not.

HpghdWkG44g

12:19pm

Italy's interior ministry has ordered a ferry, loaded with around 1,800 mainly Moroccan evacuees from Libya, not to enter Italian territorial waters pending checks, a port official said on Tuesday.

"The ship is currently off our coastline waiting in international waters," Antonio Giummo of the port of Augusta in Sicily told AFP news agency .

"They have asked to come into port to refuel," Giummo said, adding: "We have notified them of an entry ban ordered by the ministry."

3:25pm Group of Eight powers have dropped French-led proposals for a no-fly zone to end bombardment in Libya, making no mention of it in a closing statement read out by Alain Juppe, the French French foreign minister.

The statement welcomed measures under way at the United Nations Security Council "as a matter of urgency" to protect Libyans from the fighting between forces loyal to Gaddafi and rebels.

His statement made no reference however to French and British proposals for a no-fly zone, which had been met with caution by the United States, Russia and the European Union.

"Ministers called on Muammar Gaddafi to respect the legitimate claim of the Libyan people to fundamental rights, freedom of expression and a representative form of government," Juppe said.

3:45pm Italian foreign minister says a no-fly zone would not be enough to stop violence in Libya.

3:48pm Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, said that the Arab League needed to provide more concrete detail about a no-fly zone it has proposed be imposed over Libya.

Lavrov was speaking at a news conference after a Group of Eight foreign ministers' meeting at which G8 president France failed to get agreement to back a no-fly zone to halt the advance of Gaddafi's troops against rebel forces.

It looks like nothing will be done.

The world now knows that killing your people is the best way to keep power.

Everyone will take Gaddafi as a hero for dictators around the world from now on.

The Gaddafi model will be used again and again and countless people will die.

God forgive those who chose no choice instead of the hard choice.

[twa]

It looks like nothing will be done.

The world now knows that killing your people is the best way to keep power.

Everyone will take Gaddafi as a hero for dictators around the world from now on.

The Gaddafi model will be used again and again and countless people will die.

God forgive those who chose no choice instead of the hard choice.

The world has known that tactic forever,Gaddafi will not change that equation....nor will taking him out.

Who empowers them?

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

It looks like nothing will be done.

The world now knows that killing your people is the best way to keep power.

Everyone will take Gaddafi as a hero for dictators around the world from now on.

The Gaddafi model will be used again and again and countless people will die.

God forgive those who chose no choice instead of the hard choice.

Yep....we will look back at this in the future as a major failure of the entire international world to act on something - this goes on Obama's record as well

[visionary]

The world has known that tactic forever,Gaddafi will not change that equation....nor will taking him out.

Who empowers them?

The Middle eastern/North African revolutions proved that nonviolent means can bring about a change from dictatorship without massive bloodshed.

Now Gaddafi has shown the remaining dictators how to stay in power.

The international community could have shown dictators that waging war on your own people will not guarantee you victory.

Instead they have so far shown that all you need to stay in power is an army, no matter how many people are against you.

[twa]

The only reason the other revolutions worked was the military changing sides or sitting it out.(and being a army of the people)

Perhaps they were persuaded by the non-violent means employed?....a bit different than armed rebellion,where the rules change,as do perceptions.(thought I favor the armed option personally)

I'm curious what leads you to believe the new rulers would be better than the old?

[visionary]

The only reason the other revolutions worked was the military changing sides or sitting it out.(and being a army of the people)

Perhaps they were persuaded by the non-violent means employed?....a bit different than armed rebellion,where the rules change,as do perceptions.(thought I favor the armed option personally)

I'm curious what leads you to believe the new rulers would be better than the old?

Where specifically are you talking about?

In Libya? the plan is to turn it into a democracy and even before that anyone on the opposition would be better than Gaddafi's family.

The other countries have already proven in part their commitment to actual democracy and seem to be getting better and better.

We will see who eventually ends up in power.

Libya was a peaceful protest movement too, until people started being butchered and the special forces used anti aircraft weapons on civilians in the east. That's when everything started getting violent.

(of course the people knew from the past prison massacres and the hangings of kids in the street as an example that things might get ugly)

[Thiebear]

Dictators are called that because they don't "Share" anything other than what is absolutely necessary to stay in power.

He's showing how to put the dictator foot down while the resolutions go flying around.

I hope the people win but thats not how it works normally.

[twa]

Dictators are called that because they don't "Share" anything other than what is absolutely necessary to stay in power.

He's showing how to put the dictator foot down while the resolutions go flying around.

I hope the people win but thats not how it works normally.

Exactly, even after the first Gulf War where the world intervened militarily,Saddam remained and butchered.

Till someone went cowboy and and has been condemned for it....and still is.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Exactly, even after the first Gulf War where the world intervened militarily,Saddam remained and butchered.

Till someone went cowboy and and has been condemned for it....and still is.

well duh, because we did it only for oil!!! I mean, look at the gas prices - it proves it!! Look at all that oil we stole from the Iraqis because we are so greedy, dont you see all of our oil companies in Iraq?!

[Thiebear]

well duh, because we did it only for oil!!! I mean, look at the gas prices - it proves it!! Look at all that oil we stole from the Iraqis because we are so greedy, dont you see all of our oil companies in Iraq?!

Were not exaclty out of there yet. There is still time collect??? 50$ in the Saturn is crazy

Wasn't the original task name for Desert Shield: Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL) that was changed or was that an urban myth.

(supposedly said from Ari Fleisher in the bbc documentary).

I wouldn't actually mind a Presidential Statement: We want Lybian OIL, we have 10 Aircraft Carriers on the shores of Lybia and it is now with Guam and the Phillipines as a territory until Algae and Solar power pan out. They get all the benefits without the hassle of being a state.

[visionary]

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-15

5:18pm Britain is pushing for further United Nations sanctions against Gaddafi's government, William Hague, the British foreign secretary, said.

"We would now like further sanctions to be debated and agreed at the UN in New York," Hague told parliament.

He did not specify what sanctions Britain was looking for.

10:08pm France's UN ambassador said Paris was "deeply distressed" by the Security Council's failure to react to advances by troops loyal to Gaddafi against rebel forces.

"We are deeply distressed by the fact that things are worsening on the ground, that the Gaddafi forces are moving forward and the council has not yet reacted," Araud said.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

well duh, because we did it only for oil!!! I mean, look at the gas prices - it proves it!! Look at all that oil we stole from the Iraqis because we are so greedy, dont you see all of our oil companies in Iraq?!

So that clearly isn't true. Does that mean Iraq was a good idea then?

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

So that clearly isn't true. Does that mean Iraq was a good idea then?

No, but the stupid theories thrown out still to this day (like the war for oil) are ****ing annoying