TeaPartyNation: Judson Phillips: No More Methodist Church

[AsburySkinsFan]

Thanks for the info. My intent was not to offend, but merely to question and understand. Personally, I like the notion of a church as Socialist (using my definition and not a Soviet/Cuban/Chinese one). I think it's a selfless and noble act to share and care for the least of the flock which I would think most Churches aspire too.

You said the flame word "socialist" and if you notice you are getting push back on that. There is NO doubt that the church does have many parallels to socialism, i.e. communal care for each other, shared resources etc. But there is right now a feeling that if the church is called socialist then you have said something horrible about the church and equated it to the Leninist movement.

But to the others in this thread, while there may be no forced requirement for giving in the church, do any of you deny that there is in the church an expectation of giving? I can tell you 100% that there is in the United Methodist church an expectation of giving as stated in the membership vows.

[SnyderShrugged]

You can keep quoting that verse all day long, but it will not change the fact that she still gave even when she was broke and did so willingly to God. You said that if things are tight then you do not need to give, as if our offerings and tithes were a luxury for those who can afford it. Sorry, but their not, a tithe and or offering is for all and is in itself an act of worship.

serious question....are church members who choose not to tithe for whatever reason, kicked out of the church?

[AsburySkinsFan]

What about 23 y/o college student? They don't own property. Or the 21 y/o political intern? They know a ton about what's going on' date=' but probably own no property. The 82 y/o wife of an army vet that moved back in with her kids. She owns no property. Why can't they vote then?[/quote']

What about the 35 year old pastor who lives in the church parsonage. Judson's idea that voting should be given only to land owners is wholly absurd.

[Homercles82]

You can keep quoting that verse all day long, but it will not change the fact that she still gave even when she was broke and did so willingly to God. You said that if things are tight then you do not need to give, as if our offerings and tithes were a luxury for those who can afford it. Sorry, but their not, a tithe and or offering is for all and is in itself an act of worship.

Guess we won't see eye to eye.

---------- Post added December-21st-2010 at 09:05 AM ----------

serious question....are church members who choose not to tithe for whatever reason, kicked out of the church?

Which church are you talking about? Noone has ever been kicked out of my church for not tithing.

[AsburySkinsFan]

serious question....are church members who choose not to tithe for whatever reason, kicked out of the church?

Before I answer, notice the vows do not specifically say tithe as in 10%.

Now...no they are not kicked out, but do you agree that there is the expectation of giving that Methodists members agreed to when they joined the church?

---------- Post added December-21st-2010 at 09:07 AM ----------

Which church are you talking about? No one has ever been kicked out of my church for not tithing.

He's a Methodist, as am I, I suspect this is more of an "in-house" question.

[SnyderShrugged]

Before I answer, notice the vows do not specifically say tithe as in 10%.

Now...no they are not kicked out, but do you agree that there is the expectation of giving that Methodists members agreed to when they joined the church?

sure there is an underlying hope that members will give, but my point is that it is not a mandate and that in the end, the church respects individual giving decisions, therefore simply not socialism.

My personal hopes are that everyone gives and gives as much as God leads them to give.

---------- Post added December-21st-2010 at 09:13 AM ----------

Guess we won't see eye to eye.

---------- Post added December-21st-2010 at 09:05 AM ----------

Which church are you talking about? Noone has ever been kicked out of my church for not tithing.

That was kind of my point!

[AsburySkinsFan]

sure there is an underlying hope that members will give, but my point is that it is not a mandate and that in the end, the church respects individual giving decisions, therefore simply not socialism.

My personal hopes are that everyone gives and gives as much as God leads them to give.

You and I will have to agree to disagree on the issue of "hope" and "expectation".

As members of this congregation,

will you faithfully participate in its ministries

by your prayers, your presence,

your gifts, and your service?

That's not a hope of faithfulness in giving, it is a vow. :peace1:

[Thiebear]

I briefly went to the Methodist Church down the street when i found the baptist one to be a bit 1800's.

It was much more laid back and the dress code was not enforced, with way better classrooms (but thats a money issue probably).

So if the pastor believes theirs and expectation, and the flock believes there is an expectation.

it would seem to be a given that you give.. why be there if you don't wish to give and help.

I didn't know socialism required a gun to your head for community recognition? You give, it gets dispersed.

Everyone knows your business and they give to you when your in need.

AND SS: Thats what I meant about giving: People that go constantly GIVE! its a GIVEn

Seemed odd to hear someone that goes all the time and gives to say: You don't have to.Seems to me based on the conversations in the Church for that hour that is it Highly recommended and the reasoning the pastor gives seems rather sound.You are part of a group that helps others....it takes cash to keep it going.

[SnyderShrugged]

You and I will have to agree to disagree on the issue of "hope" and "expectation".

As members of this congregation,

will you faithfully participate in its ministries

by your prayers, your presence,

your gifts, and your service?

That's not a hope of faithfulness in giving, it is a vow. :peace1:

There isnt anything there that dictates the amount you must give or even that it has to be money and not your time and talents, is there?

---------- Post added December-21st-2010 at 09:23 AM ----------

I briefly went to the Methodist Church down the street when i found the baptist one to be a bit 1800's.

It was much more laid back and the dress code was not enforced, with way better classrooms (but thats a money issue probably).

So if the pastor believes theirs and expectation, and the flock believes there is an expectation.

it would seem to be a given that you give.. why be there if you don't wish to give and help.

I didn't know socialism required a gun to your head for community recognition? You give, it gets dispersed.

Everyone knows your business and they give to you when your in need.

AND SS: Thats what I meant about giving: People that go constantly GIVE! its a GIVEn

You misunderstand the difference between voluntary giving and mandatory giving.

Fact: most churches will not mandate giving a certain amount, or even that its monetary. Members will not be kicked out if they dont give a certain amount.

Fact: we want to give to the best of our ability and will.

[AsburySkinsFan]

There isn't anything there that dictates the amount you must give or even that it has to be money and not your time and talents, is there?

The financial aspect is in "your gifts" this is covered in every membership class I teach, and you're right there is nothing that dictates the amount which is why I said that it was not about tithing but instead offerings. With that said if someone is looking for how little they can give that says something itself does it not?

---------- Post added December-21st-2010 at 09:27 AM ----------

You misunderstand the difference between voluntary giving and mandatory giving.

And yet you seem to want to downplay the expectation of giving, and I'm not sure why.

[SnyderShrugged]

The financial aspect is in "your gifts" this is covered in every membership class I teach, and you're right there is nothing that dictates the amount which is why I said that it was not about tithing but instead offerings. With that said if someone is looking for how little they can give that says something itself does it not?

---------- Post added December-21st-2010 at 09:27 AM ----------

And yet you seem to want to downplay the expectation of giving, and I'm not sure why.

I'm not downplaying anything except the assertion that church giving is socialism. I give, I help others give, we donate not only money but time and talents (I teach a six sigma career development class to our church members)

The ONLY argument I made and am making is that its charitable giving and not socialism.

[@DCGoldPants]

Isn't the bigger story how some Tea Party folks who were elected by running against the K Street Lobbyist Washington, are now hiring those K Street Lobbyist's to run their offices and organize fundraisers for them already?

The people who voted for them have no idea they were duped.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I'm not downplaying anything except the assertion that church giving is socialism. I give, I help others give, we donate not only money but time and talents (I teach a six sigma career development class to our church members)

The ONLY argument I made and am making is that its charitable giving and not socialism.

Gotcha, ok, and while I agree that charitable giving is not socialism (at least in a strict sense), would you agree that the work of the church does serve in communal ways? I know what Burgold was trying to do earlier, and I'll admit that it was a bit of a stretch, but I think it is also undeniable that the very same things that the church does are indeed called socialist (at least by critics) when the government does it.

---------- Post added December-21st-2010 at 09:51 AM ----------

Isn't the bigger story how some Tea Party folks who were elected by running against the K Street Lobbyist Washington, are now hiring those K Street Lobbyist's to run their offices and organize fundraisers for them already?

The people who voted for them have no idea they were duped.

I think they're starting to catch on.

[SnyderShrugged]

Gotcha, ok, and while I agree that charitable giving is not socialism (at least in a strict sense), would you agree that the work of the church does serve in communal ways? I know what Burgold was trying to do earlier, and I'll admit that it was a bit of a stretch, but I think it is also undeniable that the very same things that the church does are indeed called socialist (at least by critics) when the government does it.

---------- Post added December-21st-2010 at 09:51 AM ----------

I think they're starting to catch on.

Oh definitely there are many wonderful cummunal aspects of church giving and membership! I think that the "free" nature of it is the ideal model for all giving rather than giving at the point of a gun mandated by socialism. To me giving must be from the heart and not out of fear of reprisals or it diminishes the gift.

---------- Post added December-21st-2010 at 09:56 AM ----------

Isn't the bigger story how some Tea Party folks who were elected by running against the K Street Lobbyist Washington, are now hiring those K Street Lobbyist's to run their offices and organize fundraisers for them already?

The people who voted for them have no idea they were duped.

A lot of folks figured that out a long time ago, there are a few that stayed true to their principles, but sadly many fell back into their tea-o-con ways.

[mardi gras skin]

And yet you seem to want to downplay the expectation of giving, and I'm not sure why.

I downplay the expectation of giving because I believe there's a better way to look at it. I don't expect my congregation to give to our church. I expect my church to be the best investment vehicle for people who want to positively impact our community.

Our church, collectively, figures out what we want to accomplish in our community, how much it will cost to carry out those invites, and how much we are all willing to invest towards those invites. Everything is on the table. Is Sunday morning worship a worthwhile investment? Is staff a worthwhile investment? Haitian disaster relief? Everything is up for discussion. Once we agree on those things we want to invest in, we all pool our personal incomes together to carry out the invites we've agreed upon. I don't know who gives and who doesn't, but most people seem to be pretty exited to be empower to carry out their ideas. I would guess that we have a very high rate of giving.

I expect our church to function as a conduit through which we are able to benefit society. If there is another church or organization they can invest in to make a greater impact on our community, I would expect them to invest their time and resources elsewhere.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I downplay the expectation of giving because I believe there's a better way to look at it. I don't expect my congregation to give to our church. I expect my church to be the best investment vehicle for people who want to positively impact our community.

I believe there can be and is an expectation of both.

[twa]

I like that explanation Mardi gras( I favor local congregationalism over larger associations)

anyhoo,back to the op, I think most of his objections are directed towards the political activism of the Methodist church(where of course he disagrees with their positions),rather than the social spending and outreach.

[AsburySkinsFan]

anyhoo,back to the op, I think most of his objections are directed towards the political activism of the Methodist church(where of course he disagrees with their positions),rather than the social spending and outreach.

And yet at the same time he wants to be taken seriously when in rejection of a political activism he calls Methodism the religious arm of socialism and also goes to say "In short, if you hate America, you have a great future in the Methodist church". When someone says that they have earned the right to be roundly criticized for being a buffoon.

[twa]

I believe there can be and is an expectation of both.

Certainly.....though I have found that if you get their hearts right,money (offerings) is not a problem.

Of course if they feel their offerings are misused or wasted ya get the opposite.

[Duckus]

Who in their right mind would ever want to keep 19YO high-school dropouts and dementia-addled 75YO alcoholics from the polls? America, clearly, couldn't bear that type of intellectual loss from the constituency.

Wow. Wow. Wow.

Those are the people who don't own homes in your opinion? What type of sheltered spoiled life have you lived?

My parents didn't own a home until 2 years ago. They immigrated to this country with like $1,000. Both became citizens as fast as they could. They both have dedicated their lives to non-profit international peace work. Low paying but amazingly rewarding. They bought a home at 50(ish), just two years ago. I am 26, have been financially independent since 18 and do not own a home yet. Trying to get $20,000 for a down payment is actually pretty hard when you have student loans, car loans, rent and a wedding to pay for.

So yea, I think I still deserve to vote. Sorry.

[twa]

And yet at the same time he wants to be taken seriously when in rejection of a political activism he calls Methodism the religious arm of socialism and also goes to say "In short, if you hate America, you have a great future in the Methodist church". When someone says that they have earned the right to be roundly criticized for being a buffoon.

I agree he was out of line and deserving of rebuke there(despite agreeing with some of his points)

[AsburySkinsFan]

Certainly.....though I have found that if you get their hearts right,money (offerings) is not a problem.

Of course if they feel their offerings are misused or wasted ya get the opposite.

I agree on both counts, and the ideal is that people shouldn't be brought into membership until their hearts are right. And any troll out there who is thinking that the reason I'm saying that is so that I want people in the church to give their money...please find some other place to haunt.

My hope is that even if people feel their offerings are misused then they will still find another place to give for in the Kingdom until such a time as those misuses can be corrected. Unfortunately what we see in the church today is that people use their tithes as a form of manipulation of the church leadership.

[twa]

Unfortunately what we see in the church today is that people use their tithes as a form of manipulation of the church leadership.

Yes,I have seen that as well.

Being of one accord and with the same goals usually reduces that.(which goes back to my favoring local congregations)

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

No, not at all., The difference between socialist and charity is force. I dont want my church forcing my donations to the poor, it belittles the act and infringes on my liberty to choose when to donate and to whom. Thats the difference between the liberals and libertarians in many respects btw. It's not an act of kindness when its at the point of a gun.

This is why the Pope puts all monetary decisions up to a vote.

[twa]

This is why the Pope puts all monetary decisions up to a vote.

The Pope is a Baptist?...Who knew?