sean_e_b Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 Well that was kind of the point. Comparing the stats at the same point in their careers gives a better picture of where certian players rank. Oh yeah, completely understand. Again, thanks for starting the thread. If you or KDawg don't do any more of these, I just might have to start a thread or two of my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilandil Tasardur Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 Well, I really like the way my list turned out. I left out two guys who are HOFers, but I'm okay with that for reasons that I'll discuss once the results are revealed for good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dallasfan Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 In-case anybody else is as impatient as me, I'm going to NINJA TEXT the identities (as I figure them out) below). By posting these u r kinda taking fun away from the OP. Had I started the thread, I'd want to be the one to reveal the info. edit NVM the OP doesn't seem to be bothered ---------- Post added December-4th-2010 at 04:17 PM ---------- The last 2 are tough but are below for anyone who cares. One is in the HoF, but I wouldn't have voted for either, based on their whole career Drew Bledsoe Warren Moon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofSparta Posted December 4, 2010 Author Share Posted December 4, 2010 By posting these u r kinda taking fun away from the OP. Had I started the thread, I'd want to be the one to reveal the info.edit NVM the OP doesn't seem to be bothered ---------- Post added December-4th-2010 at 04:17 PM ---------- The last 2 are tough but are below for anyone who cares. One is in the HoF, but I wouldn't have voted for either, based on their whole career Drew Bledsoe Warren Moon Actually, only 1 of those is correct. Unless one guy has identical stats to one of the ones I picked, which would be odd. I've got to work the 5-12 shift tonight, I'll do the big reveal when I get home from work. That gives everybody 1 last day to get their input in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzo Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 That is incorrect. Carter's numbers are far superior and he also had some of the best hands ever.Carter: 1101 rec 13899 yards 130 TD Monk: 940 rec 12721 yards 68 TD Carter also played in a more pass friendly era than Monk. Plus Monk played on a run first team & Carter played on a pass first team. If Carter had played in the same era as Monk his numbers wouldn't be that good. I'd be willing to bet that if all the receivers from the 1990s era that amassed all those great stats had played when Monk played their stats would be inferior to Monk's. ---------- Post added December-4th-2010 at 11:56 PM ---------- McNabb is not nearly as efficient a quarterback in terms of completion percentage as a guy like Marino. I don't think Marino was the best qb of his generation as Montana was at the head of that class.But McNabb had a much better team around him (including a top defense) while Marino's Miami teams were borderline for much of his time there. The fact the Eagles lost 3 straight NFC title games AT HOME and McNabb couldn't rally them even one time I think reflects poorly on his ability to be clutch. I have to disagree. While I thought Montana was a very good QB, he & the 49ers had success because they had a good all around team plus they played in the weakest division in football. Marino played on subpar teams with no running game & the Dolphins still had some success. Montana succeed because of the talent around him. The Dolphins although they never won a Suberbowl with Marino won because of Marino & would have probably stunk without him. It is sort of like comparing Bart Starr to Sonny Jurgenson. Bart had the championships but Sonny was the far superior QB at least according to Vince Lombardi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofSparta Posted December 5, 2010 Author Share Posted December 5, 2010 Ok, fun part: time for the big reveal. Now those of you who cheated and read sean's post will already know most of these, but for those who haven't (as well as for the missing 2 candidates) here are the players that match the stats: Player/ Comp. / Att. / Comp% / Yards / Yds per Att / TD / INT / QB Rat / R Yds/ R TDs A: / 2874 / 4779 / 60.1 / 35467 / 7.42 / 237 / 175 / 84.4 / 1049 / 7 -4 Pro Bowls Jim Kelly B: / 3311 / 5441 / 60.9 / 38627 / 7.10 / 287 / 172 / 79.2 / 1559 / 12 -6 Pro Bowls, 3 MVPs Brett Favre C: / 1845 / 3071 / 60.1 / 23069 / 7.51 / 160 / 79 / 94.9 / 3219 / 30 -3 Pro Bowls, 2 MVPs Steve Young D: / 2723 / 4890 / 55.9 / 34296 / 7.00 / 183 / 167 / 74.7 / 2435 / 22 -5 Pro Bowls, 1 MVP John Elway E: / 2528 / 4380 / 59.0 / 33854 / 7.73 / 201 / 185 / 81.2 / 480 / 11 -5 Pro Bowls Dan Fouts F: / 2908 / 4574 / 63.6 / 33547 / 7.30 / 248 / 103 / 94.3 / 591 / 7 -5 Pro Bowls, 1 MVP Tom Brady G: / 3219 / 5434 / 59.2 / 40720 / 7.49 / 298 / 168 / 86.4 / 105 / 7 -9 Pro Bowls, 1 MVP Dan Marino H: / 3839 / 5960 / 64.4 / 45628 / 7.66 / 333 / 165 / 95.2 / 717 / 17 -9 Pro Bowls, 3 MVPs Peyton Manning I: / 2801 / 4746 / 59.0 / 32873 / 6.93 / 216 / 100 / 85.7 / 3249 / 28 -6 Pro Bowls Donovan McNabb J: / 2593 / 4059 / 63.9 / 31054 / 7.65 / 216 / 107 / 92.5 / 1405 / 19 -6 Pro Bowls, 1 MVP Joe Montana K: / 3003 / 4947 / 60.7 / 37949 / 7.63 / 214 / 185 / 80.2 / 1496 / 21 -7 Pro Bowls Warren Moon I'll admit to thinking 3 QBs were at a disadvantage: Dan Fouts, Steve Young and Tom Brady. Why? Fouts played mostly in the 70's, so his stats will be tempered by playing a few less games and in a more run-focused era. Steve Young sat for quite a few years behind Montana. Brady is only in his 11th season this year, so he's got about a 6 game handicap. But otherwise, I don't really see how there's any disadvantage in comparing stats, unless you count the fact that Favre won't just go the **** away already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishtw Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 Thx for the thread GoS very interesting indeed. I know I didn't post my ranking prior to the big reveal so I can't knock anyone one that did and now looks silly so I won't. Just want to see what KDawg says about this after he sees it was Peyton. The third tier: I - I really like his touchdown to interception ratio. Decent stats otherwise. 6.93 per attempt is low. Not a bad QB, but I wouldn't say anyone in this group is HOF worthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilandil Tasardur Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 Well, I loved the exercise but I'm a bit disappointed about just one thing. Everyone on the list is a hall of famer of future hall of famer. I thought the interesting part of the exercise would be to see how some of the guys in the hall compared to some of the close but not good enough guys, like Testaverde or Bledsoe. The whole argument with Mcnabb was where he stands in comparison to them. If you compare Mcnabb to only hall of famers, and not to the tier below, then you don't have an exact view of where he falls. Also, it make it difficult to actually do the predicting. You gave us a list of 11 guys who are all pretty damn close, if not hall of famers, and made it seem like it was more of a mixed bag. I left out guys like Fouts, Moon, and Kelly. Looking at it now, it's clear that they were the "worst" of an elite class. If the lesser guys like Testaverde or Bledsoe had been in it may have been more clear who was HOF and who was not. Still, I don't want to sound negative. This thread has made finals week much more fun. It's the most fun I've had in weeks. Thanks a million!:logo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 Ignore my (fast becoming ) erstwhile young friend Ghost. He's just one of the lazy ones from the "multi-tasking" generation. He knows I'm onto him, putting his girl before the needs of his brethren. Next he'll be telling us he needs to work and **** to even be on here .....But I digress, the OP: I rank the QB's on the list thus:- H, F & G, my top group, with I and B just behind; J, C & A in the next group; with K, D and E bringing up the rear, and who I'd pass on in an ideal World. Now, the four, and I only have four from the eleven, I'd put in the Hall are H, F, G and B. Interestingly, if I'm right given the rushing TD's, I have our current QB at 4 on my list, but not in the Hall. But I'm happy my favorite player of all time, at least who I've seen play, is at #1. (I think, lol.), Can't win the big game my ASS ..... Hail. So, I had, in order: Peyton Manning Tom Brady Dan Marino Donovan McNabb Brett Favre Joe Montana Steve Young Jim Kelly Warren Moon John Elway Dan Foutes. Not surprised I had the top five pegged, and McNabb as the one of those four I don't think is HoF worthy. TOTALLY surprised my third group of Montana, Young and Kelly are where they are, and the fact I didn't consider them worthy on the numbers alone. All three I'd have in the Hall. And utterly SHOCKED Elway is second to last on my list. For the combacks alone he's got to have a shot, not to mention the number of SB appearances and everything he meant to his team. Thanks Ghost man, interesting and fun exercise as the others have been. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 Thx for the thread GoS very interesting indeed.I know I didn't post my ranking prior to the big reveal so I can't knock anyone one that did and now looks silly so I won't. Just want to see what KDawg says about this after he sees it was Peyton. I isn't Peyton. I is McNabb. So I feel like I felt prior to the thread. McNabb is not a hall of famer First thing I'm looking for is TD:Int ratio. Then I look towards yards per attempt. Completion percentage plays a role with me as well.Top Tier: H - Statistically looks far and beyond to be the best QB. Has the best rating, yards, touchdowns F- Extremely high completion percentage, very good touchdown to interception ratio. J - Intriguing. 2:1 TD:Int ratio. Good completion percentage, good rating... low yardage The Good Stats but I Question Them So They're Second Tier Group: G - Erm. Yup. C - His stats seem extremely low. Which means in his first 11 years I'm guessing he didn't play a lot until the end. This guy could move up or down based on a bigger sample size. Rush yards are huge for him. High passer rating despite being a good rusher. He'd probably make the higher group before the lower group... But I'm not sold on his passing numbers. Combined with the rushing numbers he looks pretty good. B - All of the stats seem really good, except that 7.1 yards per attempt stat. That's something that I can live with. I'm assuming this guy won quite a bit based on these numbers. The third tier: I - I really like his touchdown to interception ratio. Decent stats otherwise. 6.93 per attempt is low. Not a bad QB, but I wouldn't say anyone in this group is HOF worthy. Though, I'm sure some of them are in A - Solid QB. Not sure I could put him any higher on the list due to his TD:INT ratio. Lower Tier: K - Low TD:INT ratio. E - Probably pretty interchangeable with K. D- Low yards per attempt, low TD:Int ratio, low completion percentage. Not a fan of these numbers. By far the worst on the list in my eyes. My top tier was: Peyton Manning Tom Brady Joe Montana Next tier, and still HoF was: Dan Marino Steve Young Brett Favre Third Tier and just outside Hall of Famer: Donovan McNabb Jim Kelly (This is interesting, by the way, as the two are pretty similar. They both got their teams there, or close... But were unable to win) Last Group: Dan Fouts John Elway Warren Moon The best part about this is Shanahan had Elway, and made Elway look outstanding when prior to Shanahan's arrival, he wasn't up to snuff. After Shanahan's arrival, his record became much more consistant and TD:INT ratio looked much better. All of Elways first 11 years were without Shanahan as the head coach. If you were to include career stats, Elway looks much better. Which, I guess, is a basis for an argument for McNabb. However, In Elway's first season with Shanahan he posted his best TD:Int Ratio other than 1993 [he repeated that in 1996 and 97 and 98 he also posted above a 2:1 TD:INT ratio] and his second best yard output other than 1993. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishtw Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I isn't Peyton. I is McNabb. So I feel like I felt prior to the thread. McNabb is not a hall of famer . lol, Your right, my post is full of fail :doh: Sometimes drinking and posting don't mix. "Don't drink and post?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagles_Legendz Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I enjoyed this post, it was very interesting, thanks. One person who I would have found interesting to be included would be Aikman. I haven't looked up his stats in a long time, but I thought I remembered his actual numbers were not quite comparable with other clear cut HOF QBs. ---------- Post added December-5th-2010 at 12:25 PM ---------- Ok, curiosity got the better of me Aikman: 2898/4715 61.5% 32942 165 141 7.0 YPA Rushing: 1016 yards, 9 TDs 6 Pro Bowls Here's another random one: 2429/4289 56.6% 29979 207 134 7.0 YPA Rushing: 4928 yards, 35 TDs 4 Pro Bowls His completion percentage is down significantly from Aikman's but it's balanced out by his YPA and much better TD/INT ratio and rushing. Interesting. Finally one other to throw out: 3787/6701 56.5% 46233 275 267 6.9 YPA Rushing: 1661 yards, 15 TDs 2 Pro Bowls Seems more accumulation than anything else, but I don't see Aikman's stats being leagues better than either of these guys (certainly not number 2, who should be easy to figure out). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofSparta Posted December 5, 2010 Author Share Posted December 5, 2010 Well, I loved the exercise but I'm a bit disappointed about just one thing. Everyone on the list is a hall of famer of future hall of famer. I thought the interesting part of the exercise would be to see how some of the guys in the hall compared to some of the close but not good enough guys, like Testaverde or Bledsoe. The whole argument with Mcnabb was where he stands in comparison to them. If you compare Mcnabb to only hall of famers, and not to the tier below, then you don't have an exact view of where he falls.Also, it make it difficult to actually do the predicting. You gave us a list of 11 guys who are all pretty damn close, if not hall of famers, and made it seem like it was more of a mixed bag. I left out guys like Fouts, Moon, and Kelly. Looking at it now, it's clear that they were the "worst" of an elite class. If the lesser guys like Testaverde or Bledsoe had been in it may have been more clear who was HOF and who was not. Still, I don't want to sound negative. This thread has made finals week much more fun. It's the most fun I've had in weeks. Thanks a million!:logo: Honestly, when I was done, I wanted to have done it better, but I work 2 jobs and these stats took close to an hour to compile. I had fun doing it, but after a while it started to get tedious and I stopped short of what I really wanted to do, which was about 20 QBs including Bledsoe, Testaverde, Collins, and a couple other QBs with great stats that have no shot at the HOF. Maybe next time I do something like this I'll be more in-depth, but this was the first time I'd done something like this, and it was more involved than I anticipated. Props to KDawg for doing this more than once. Though I do plan to do something like this again, I'm just not sure when the muse will hit me and what topic it will be on. Stay tuned, sports fans. The best part about this is Shanahan had Elway, and made Elway look outstanding when prior to Shanahan's arrival, he wasn't up to snuff. After Shanahan's arrival, his record became much more consistant and TD:INT ratio looked much better. All of Elways first 11 years were without Shanahan as the head coach. If you were to include career stats, Elway looks much better. Which, I guess, is a basis for an argument for McNabb. However, In Elway's first season with Shanahan he posted his best TD:Int Ratio other than 1993 [he repeated that in 1996 and 97 and 98 he also posted above a 2:1 TD:INT ratio] and his second best yard output other than 1993. I was actually amazed at how poor Elway's stats looked proir to Shanahan. Not saying McNabb will be anything like Elway, but Elway also had that reputation as a choker until the end of his career, when he won with a great RB and a good O-line paving the way to a SB win for him. And others have said that McNabb probably gets in with a ring. Elway got in thanks to his SB wins at the end of his career, Steve Young gets in thanks to a SB win and playing with the greatest WR of all time despite a shorter career and lesser stats. I think if McNabb had pulled a Kelly and saved his chokes for the big game he might be closer to an induction nod. But even coming up short, Kelly got his team to the SB 4 straight times, something no other team has accomplished. And for the record, I don't think McNabb is a HOFer, at least not yet. He either needs an MVP-caliber season, a ring, or both. But I don't see McNabb being one who gets in on stats alone. Favre or Manning could've made it without a ring, McNabb won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_e_b Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 A couple people were surprised I had McNabb so high, so I decided to plug in numbers for all QB's based on this season alone (minimum 100 passing attempts) . Out of the 39 QB's, I have McNabb as the 10th worst, barely above guys like Chad Henne, Alex Smith, and Colt McCoy. If anybody's interested, my top 5 worst QB's based on this season are: 35. Chad Henne 36. Alex Smith 37. Matt Moore 38. Brett Favre 39. Jimmy Clausen (The Worst) Best QB's are: 1. Michael Vick (Best by a wide margin) 2. Tom Brady 3. Matt Cassel 4. Matt Ryan 5. Kyle Orton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheItalianStallion Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Interesting thread, thanks for posting. I don't consider McNabb to be a HoFer, not yet anyway. His defenses were almost invariably in the top-10, if not top 5, in papg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panel Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 OK, after using this website (http://www.primecomputing.com/), the true QB ratings would look like this:A: 84.4 B: 86.8 C: 90.1 D: 76.0 E: 80.1 F: 94.3 G: 88.1 H: 94.7 I: 86.5 J: 94.0 K: 83.5 I think the QB rating does a good job of determining who the better young QBs were. The only thing that the QB rating does not take into consideration is the rushing, Pro Bowls, MVPs, Number of snaps, and Super Bowls. In this case, I don't think that would change the order of any of the QBs, this is the order of QBs by true QB rating: Player Letter/ Rating/ Player Name H 94.7 Peyton Manning F 94.3 Tom Brady J 94 Joe Montana C 90.1 Steve Young G 88.1 Dan Marino B 86.8 Brett Favre I 86.5 Donovan McNabb A 84.4 Jim Kelly K 83.5 Warren Moon E 80.1 Dan Fouts D 76 John Elway Looks about right to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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