AFC VS NFC Coaching (Are We Dreaming?)

[brettstr]

Has anyone researched the success of coaches who did outstanding in the AFC, only to flop in the NFC. There seems to be a drop off in success, especially in our current situation. I know things are still transitioning with this club but Can and DO the mind sets of AFC coaches adapt well to the NFC, defense vs offense philosophy and aggression? Parcells had some success in the AFC but he started in the NFC . Yes, Don Coryell's system was successful in the NFC,but the coaching style and success is what I am after.

Hail

[hail2skins]

Tom Coughlin did relatively well with the Jags and hasn't done bad with the Giants.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

It would be interesting to figure out, though I'm not sure it would be very telling. First of all, over the past 10 or so years, the AFC has been the superior conference, so I'm not sure that would really play into things like it would have during the NFC's golden age (1980s). Secondly, due to the parity of the league, I just can't believe that it would be even a minor factor regarding success.

One coach who have made the transition just fine (off the top of my head) is Tom Coughlin (Jags to Giants).

[Henry]

Wade Phillips won his first playoff game with the Cowboys.

[brettstr]

I am just not convinced yet, Shanny will have the success he had in Denver. I dont see a hard nosed offense in terms of tenacity. Receivers running scared, offensive linemen playing like they are in the, I pee pee im my pants league. Not to mention, everyone else in this league seems to have good to great talent evaluators that can pick gems from no where, we seem to have ZERO, CERO, NUNCA, NADA NONE. How bout that.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Understood Brett...but I really don't think that has anything to do with his AFC roots. Plus, he got his start in the NFC (SF) didn't he?

[brettstr]

Wade Phillips won his first playoff game with the Cowboys.

And Wade Phillips is Where? Fanning himself with some teas leaves, huddled in a corner somewhere in Dallas asking for his mommy after being emasculated by Jerah Jones

[brettstr]

Understood Brett...but I really don't think that has anything to do with his AFC roots. Plus, he got his start in the NFC (SF) didn't he?

So True, but I am looking for that intangible that gives credit to the choice to go with Shanahan. Even in a rebulding state. I believe it was Shannahan who spent countless hours looking at other teams. I believed that he could possibly bring something that was innovative and new, like when Buges came up with the counter trey. In the beginning no one and I mean no one could stop it. I am looking for unstopable plays and a tenacious offense and defense.

[JCSMCPCCrskins]

Be realistic and have some patience brett. You talk about talent, yet we were left with close to nothing thanks to vinny. It will take more than one off season (with almost no picks) to get the talent we need to have some "unstoppable plays". Not to mention all the injuries we have. We pulled out a real nice win a couple days ago and the players showed determination and intensity. It doesn't happen over night, and if you want to make a thread about afc vs nfc coaching, maybe you should do the research and put it in your op. Why not argue your point with facts, instead of just starting a thread and asking if somebody else has or wants to do the research...

[brettstr]

Be realistic and have some patience brett. You talk about talent, yet we were left with close to nothing thanks to vinny. It will take more than one off season (with almost no picks) to get the talent we need to have some "unstoppable plays". Not to mention all the injuries we have. We pulled out a real nice win a couple days ago and the players showed determination and intensity. It doesn't happen over night, and if you want to make a thread about afc vs nfc coaching, maybe you should do the research and put it in your op. Why not argue your point with facts, instead of just starting a thread and asking if somebody else has or wants to do the research...

EASE Up Playa.

I come here because this is one of the most informative, if not the highest level of Redskins knowledgeable folks in the Entire World. Fans here are the Wikipedia of Redskins and NFL. Need to know?, ask here. So I made a conscience decision to make this thread to all of the intelligent and most informative sports fans who know their facts. if you are NOT one of them..........Step

Hail

[JCSMCPCCrskins]

ok then playa, ill get to steppin...

[Rskins91]

Tony Dungy, Bill Parcells, Tom Coughlin, Mike Smith (Falcons coach and ex. Jags D coordinator), and Ken Wiesenhunt (minus this year for 'Zona) are a few modern coaches that did a lot of their work in the AFC and had success in the NFC too. In Tony Dungy's case, he started in the NFC, and was actually more successful in the AFC. So, I don't think there's much correlation to AFC vs NFC being a deciding factor in someone's coaching ability.

Also, for your point that we don't find diamonds in the rough... what do you call Anthony Armstrong, Keiland Williams/Ryan Torain, or biggest of all, Brandon Banks? All of them were UDFAs (minus Armstrong sorta) and they've contributed to the team in quite a few ways. It's unrealistic to think a team can find 6-7 UDFAs to suddenly play at a high level for your team. With just those three, we've made progress as opposed to our typical 0-1 UDFA contributor.

[brettstr]

Tony Dungy, Bill Parcells, Tom Coughlin, Mike Smith (Falcons coach and ex. Jags D coordinator), and Ken Wiesenhunt (minus this year for 'Zona) are a few modern coaches that did a lot of their work in the AFC and had success in the NFC too. In Tony Dungy's case, he started in the NFC, and was actually more successful in the AFC. So, I don't think there's much correlation to AFC vs NFC being a deciding factor in someone's coaching ability.

Also, for your point that we don't find diamonds in the rough... what do you call Anthony Armstrong, Keiland Williams/Ryan Torain, or biggest of all, Brandon Banks? All of them were UDFAs (minus Armstrong sorta) and they've contributed to the team in quite a few ways. It's unrealistic to think a team can find 6-7 UDFAs to suddenly play at a high level for your team. With just those three, we've made progress as opposed to our typical 0-1 UDFA contributor.

1st part: Well Done. But I still think there is a drop off in coaching abilities and adaption.

On talent, the jury is still out on those players consistency and that has nothing to do with drafting players in lowere rounds or pick ups that become pro bowl players.

[chrisc0015]

I prefer 5 - 5 to 4 - 12. I think coaching has been just fine. I still don't understand why anyone thinks the Redskins would be a contender this year, or any time in the next 2 years. Our depth isn't there, and to build depth quicker we'll inevitably bring in some semi-decent free agents who will last a couple years but not be spectacular, trading away draft picks like we've done for years.

[brettstr]

I prefer 5 - 5 to 4 - 12. I think coaching has been just fine. I still don't understand why anyone thinks the Redskins would be a contender this year, or any time in the next 2 years. Our depth isn't there, and to build depth quicker we'll inevitably bring in some semi-decent free agents who will last a couple years but not be spectacular, trading away draft picks like we've done for years.

Why is that teams like the Jets and a rookie quaterback can make it to the playoffs, but the skins teams need to be patient. I think the fans are tired of being patient when other teams succeed with new coaches, new schemes, rookie quarterbacks, new owners, new houses, new cars everything BUT us. Man that argument is getting old as dirt.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Why is that teams like the Jets and a rookie quaterback can make it to the playoffs, but the skins teams need to be patient. I think the fans are tired of being patient when other teams succeed with new coaches, new schemes, rookie quarterbacks, new owners, new houses, new cars everything BUT us. Man that argument is getting old as dirt.

You also have teams who have been "on the cusp" for years and haven't taken the next step (the Texans), and teams with "rookie QBs" who don't come close to winning (the Browns), and established teams with seemingly every piece imaginable that can't get out of its own way (the Cowboys/Vikings). So, you don't HAVE to be patient, some of us just choose to be knowing that winning a championship in the NFL isn't something you stumble onto.

[brettstr]

You also have teams who have been "on the cusp" for years and haven't taken the next step (the Texans), and teams with "rookie QBs" who don't come close to winning (the Browns), and established teams with seemingly every piece imaginable that can't get out of its own way (the Cowboys/Vikings). So, you don't HAVE to be patient, some of us just choose to be knowing that winning a championship in the NFL isn't something you stumble onto.

I am Not a fair weather fan. Have been through the thick and thin of good, great and crappy skin teams. So as far as being patient, I am still here aren't I? I don't post a lot so you have no idea what my patience barometer looks like.

By the way we are not the Browns or Titans or Cowboys or a USFL team , we are the skins. I pay for more through heart mind and soul with this team and expect More from them, that I will never quit expecting more, never..everrrrrrr

Don't take things so personal dude, your frustration may be getting hte best of you though. Ease up. NOT that serious

[ThomasRoane]

Why is that teams like the Jets and a rookie quaterback can make it to the playoffs, but the skins teams need to be patient. I think the fans are tired of being patient when other teams succeed with new coaches, new schemes, rookie quarterbacks, new owners, new houses, new cars everything BUT us. Man that argument is getting old as dirt.

First NFC vs AFC; Joe Gibbs came from the AFC (Chargers). And Bill Walsh came from Cleveland. I believe it comes in cycles. During the 80s and 90s the NFC dominated the AFC. Badly! So for years the AFC teams were picking towards the top. The talent was there but early on the coaching wasn't. Then the Hoodie decided not to return to the Giants. Turned down the Jets and went to the Patriots. He brought his philosophy there and actually added a few new tricks to his bag. Then to make it to the playoffs other AFC teams had to pick up their level of play. You had Cowher keeping the Steelers in the mix. Hard nosed, physical teams. Dungy left Tampa for Indy. His Tampa Two and quick pass rushers was the perfect compliment to a high scoring offense with Peyton at the helm. They only won one Super Bowl but have always been a factor. Then you have our very own Mike Shannahan at Denver. His ZBS and running game kept Denver in a lot of games. His brand of WCO was different enough to make it difficult for NFC teams to adjust to.

Eventually, momentun will swing back to the NFC. It's a dog fight to get out of the NFC and that helps to make teams playoff and battle ready. Something that the AFC has been experiencing for years. This has less to do with what conference a coach comes from and more to do with a team building that core group of young talent. The teams that will thrive are those that have a plan and will stick with it.

Regardless of what many think I believe we have that plan in place. The Redskins were so bereft of talent from 10 years of Vinny's terrible decision making. And Snyder was co dependent. Even though we are older and still are short draft picks I believe that Shanahan and Allen have done a great job (with a limited free agent market) in building a team that may not have a lot of superstars; but they work hard and have good character. Those are the role models you want to have in place as you start bringing in young talent in the future.

For once in a long, long time we the fans need to be truly patient. (We really haven't been because we were all guilty of applauding all the off-season championships we got from signing over-rated or has-been talent; and all you have to do is read the boards after a loss and you'll see that there's no such thing as patience here) You may not like the idea of waiting but that means you haven't truly grasped how broke we were. Vinny missed so often in the draft that I'm sure Allen and Shanahan were sick to their stomachs during OTA's. They must have been wondering 'what the hell was I thinking?!?!' But they are here and appear to be dedicated to getting this right.

[brettstr]

First NFC vs AFC; Joe Gibbs came from the AFC (Chargers). And Bill Walsh came from Cleveland. I believe it comes in cycles. During the 80s and 90s the NFC dominated the AFC. Badly! So for years the AFC teams were picking towards the top. The talent was there but early on the coaching wasn't. Then the Hoodie decided not to return to the Giants. Turned down the Jets and went to the Patriots. He brought his philosophy there and actually added a few new tricks to his bag. Then to make it to the playoffs other AFC teams had to pick up their level of play. You had Cowher keeping the Steelers in the mix. Hard nosed, physical teams. Dungy left Tampa for Indy. His Tampa Two and quick pass rushers was the perfect compliment to a high scoring offense with Peyton at the helm. They only wone one Super Bowl but have always been a factor. Then you have our very own Mike Shannahan at Denver. His ZBS and running game kept Denver in a lot of games. His brand of WCO was different enough to make it difficult for NFC teams to adjust to.

Eventually, momentun will swing back to the NFC. It's a dog fight to get out of the NFC and that helps to make teams playoff and battle ready. Something that the AFC has been experiencing for years. This has less to do with what conference a coach comes from and more to do with a team building that core group of young talent. The teams that will thrive are those that have a plan and will stick with it.

Regardless of what many think I believe we have that plan in place. The Redskins were so bereft of talent from 10 years of Vinny's terrible decision making. And Snyder was co dependent. Even though we are older and still are short draft picks I believe that Shanahan and Allen have done a great job (with a limited free agent market) in building a team that may not have a lot of superstars; but they work hard and have good character. Those are the role models you want to have in place as you start bringing in young talent in the future.

For once in a long, long time we the fans need to be patient. You may not like the idea of waiting but that means you haven't truly grasped how broke we were. Vinny missed so often in the draft that I'm sure Allen and Shanahan were sick to their stomachs during OTA's. They must have been wondering 'what the hell was I thinking?!?!' But they are here and appear to be dedicated to getting this right.

Wow. Outstanding facts. Thnat's what Iam talking about.

Tampa 2. Great example of what I am saying.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I am Not a fair weather fan. Have been through the thick and thin of good, great and crappy skin teams. So as far as being patient, I am still here aren't I? I don't post a lot so you have no idea what my patience barometer looks like.

You're the one who started asking why you have to be patient. I don't know you which means I can only base my responses on what you share.

By the way we are not the Browns or Titans or Cowboys or a USFL team , we are the skins. I pay for more through heart mind and soul with this team and expect More from them, that I will never quit expecting more, never..everrrrrrr

OK

Don't take things so personal dude, your frustration may be getting hte best of you though. Ease up. NOT that serious

I'm not frustrated. I'm pretty happy with this team and optimistic about the direction. I'll try to "ease up" I guess...hahaha. Keep in mind, you started the thread asking if we're dreaming at the prospects of Shanahan having success in the NFC. All I've done is point out that 1) the AFC is the better conference so, logically, the question confused me and 2) plenty of teams don't strike gold like the Jets did recently and contend with rookies. I'm not sure I'm taking this thread too seriously...but I hope you're getting what you're looking for.

[Annonymous Source]

Has anyone researched the success of coaches who did outstanding in the AFC, only to flop in the NFC. There seems to be a drop off in success, especially in our current situation. I know things are still transitioning with this club but Can and DO the mind sets of AFC coaches adapt well to the NFC, defense vs offense philosophy and aggression? Parcells had some success in the AFC but he started in the NFC . Yes, Don Coryell's system was successful in the NFC,but the coaching style and success is what I am after.

Hail

OP, I think you are trying to get at two different things in your post, so I will try to address both of them.

1) AFC coaches tend to struggle when transitioning to NFC teams. Numerous examples to the contrary have already been given in the thread, so I will not worry about listing coaches instead making a more general statement. Right now the AFC is the dominant league. They are on the whole, more talented, better coached, and better managed. If I were to start listing coaches that I would want running my franchise it would be a lot of AFC names like Bill Bellichek, Rex Ryan, Mike Tomlin jump right to the top of the list. The only NFC coach who, I feel, consistently produces a winning product is Andy Reid.

So with the fact established that the AFC is full of well established winning coaches, we can then conclude that the available talent pool of AFC coaches will be smaller any given year due to the fact that there are less coaches getting fired. So to look at it another way, the reason it can seem that there arent very many AFC coaches coming to the NFC and having success is due to the fact that there are fewer AFC coaches, and the ones available tend to be poor, whereas in the NFC there are a ton of coaches getting fired every year, and thus a much larger market to draw from. So essentially, the fact that the AFC coaches are better makes the ones that become available worse.

2) On to your second point, which implies that Mike Shannahan is having a dropoff as a coach from his time in the AFC. I dont know how this belief can stay prevalent when last year is so fresh in everyone's memories. This team is sitting at .500 and is contending for a playoff berth, and because of this is by definition much improved from last year. Granted Shanny has made several "Questionable" (or boneheaded, depending on how angry you are when discussing) coaching decisions this year, but the team on the whole has looked well coached. The reason the record is sitting at 5-5 is because this team is a 8-8 team. In the thread you said how ES is a place with very smart football minds, and the group consensus before the season started was this was an 8-8 team. We all (hopefully) want the team to go to the playoffs, but on the whole many of us have already accepted that this is a very limited team. There is typically a thread every few days along the lines of "We are who we thought we were" and they all pretty much address this point.

In short, I can see no visible signs that Shanny has had any decline as a coach from his time in Denver.

[brettstr]

OP, I think you are trying to get at two different things in your post, so I will try to address both of them.

1) AFC coaches tend to struggle when transitioning to NFC teams. Numerous examples to the contrary have already been given in the thread, so I will not worry about listing coaches instead making a more general statement. Right now the AFC is the dominant league. They are on the whole, more talented, better coached, and better managed. If I were to start listing coaches that I would want running my franchise it would be a lot of AFC names like Bill Bellichek, Rex Ryan, Mike Tomlin jump right to the top of the list. The only NFC coach who, I feel, consistently produces a winning product is Andy Reid.

So with the fact established that the AFC is full of well established winning coaches, we can then conclude that the available talent pool of AFC coaches will be smaller any given year due to the fact that there are less coaches getting fired. So to look at it another way, the reason it can seem that there arent very many AFC coaches coming to the NFC and having success is due to the fact that there are fewer AFC coaches, and the ones available tend to be poor, whereas in the NFC there are a ton of coaches getting fired every year, and thus a much larger market to draw from. So essentially, the fact that the AFC coaches are better makes the ones that become available worse.

2) On to your second point, which implies that Mike Shannahan is having a dropoff as a coach from his time in the AFC. I dont know how this belief can stay prevalent when last year is so fresh in everyone's memories. This team is sitting at .500 and is contending for a playoff berth, and because of this is by definition much improved from last year. Granted Shanny has made several "Questionable" (or boneheaded, depending on how angry you are when discussing) coaching decisions this year, but the team on the whole has looked well coached. The reason the record is sitting at 5-5 is because this team is a 8-8 team. In the thread you said how ES is a place with very smart football minds, and the group consensus before the season started was this was an 8-8 team. We all (hopefully) want the team to go to the playoffs, but on the whole many of us have already accepted that this is a very limited team. There is typically a thread every few days along the lines of "We are who we thought we were" and they all pretty much address this point.

In short, I can see no visible signs that Shanny has had any decline as a coach from his time in Denver.

on #2

Please don't count last years record as a matter of record. Shannahan did not coach this team. Zorn did. My point is Mike has a new record with the skins he started 0-0. I dont even want to count his record in Denver, that was Denver. I am only trying to note for the record and success of coaches who came to the NFC and were successful, which was pointed out to me with great detail. Shanahan has to prove himself here and is prove he is a viable coach like Joe Gibbs did his secong time around (mediocre), not what he did in Denver and ceratinly not what Spurrier, Zorn, Marty or any other coach did here.

Why does this team have to be limited. L:ook what the Jests are doing with a 2nd year coach and a second year quarterback. Look what he did in his first year. Playoffs. This man is talking Super Bowl in his second year. Why does this team want a pass. To rebuild? Seems to me these are continued excuses that are going......8-8....even par

[Mr. Dictionary]

Why does this team have to be limited. L:ook what the Jests are doing with a 2nd year coach and a second year quarterback. Look what he did in his first year. Playoffs. This man is talking Super Bowl in his second year. Why does this team want a pass. To rebuild? Seems to me these are continued excuses that are going......8-8....even par

Rex Ryan was able to accomplish that because he had arguably the #1 Defense in football and the #1 Rushing attack, mainly Thomas Jones, but Shonn Greene helped them out down the stretch.

[hail2skins]

Regarding the Jets, Rex didn't take over a terrible team, but they were actually out of the playoff chase before the Colts literally laid down for them and then they played a Bengals team that had nothing to play for. I think the Jets are a decent team, but have you seen the way they've won some of their more recent games against the Lions, Browns, and Texans. Not exactly in dominating fashion.

Shanahan is known for his Super Bowl victories in Denver but lets not forget that his last three seasons there the Broncos were a .500 team. That's about where he is in Washington so far. I agree with AS that this team has been pretty much an 8-8 team......lets give Shanny until the end of Year 2 to see if he can improve this team beyond that before starting to express impatience.

[brettstr]

Regarding the Jets, Rex didn't take over a terrible team, but they were actually out of the playoff chase before the Colts literally laid down for them and then they played a Bengals team that had nothing to play for. I think the Jets are a decent team, but have you seen the way they've won some of their more recent games against the Lions, Browns, and Texans. Not exactly in dominating fashion.

Shanahan is known for his Super Bowl victories in Denver but lets not forget that his last three seasons there the Broncos were a .500 team. That's about where he is in Washington so far. I agree with AS that this team has been pretty much an 8-8 team......lets give Shanny until the end of Year 2 to see if he can improve this team beyond that before starting to express impatience.

I say lets give Shanahan a chance as well or a least until this board runs him straight out of town to the funny farm like it always does with players and coaches. I am not advocating getting rid of Shanahan at all, just taking a good hard look at his credentials moving forward. I should have been consulted before his hire anyway.