Precisely why we are the oldest team in the league (Fun Draft Stat!)

[congo4269]

First thread, so please don't eat me alive.

So not to be Debbie Downer here, but my buddy and I started talking about our recent drafts, and I decided to do a little research. Don't get me wrong; I'm as happy as the rest of you with the current regime and the progress we seem to be making, but since sometimes it's hard to put your finger on exactly why we hate Vinny so much (there are just too many reasons) it's good to reflect on the stats. Forgive me if someone else has pointed this out:

Since 2005 (6 drafts), we've drafted 7 starters. 6 of them were with our first pick in the 1st or 2nd round.

That means that in 6 years of drafting, we've been able to find one current starter outside of the 1st or 2nd round (Kareem Moore).

Not sure how that would stack up around the league; sure as heck sounds miserable to me.

THANKS VINNY!!! Does anyone else find this stat ridiculous? Here's to bucking the trend next year.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

In fairness, we've been lucky by drafting fewer busts in the first round. Since 2005 our only 1st round bust was Jason Campbell. That's 4 picks out of 5 that are actually pro-bowl caliber (if Carlos Rogers didn't have stone hands). Orakpo, Trent Williams, Landry, Rogers...and then Campbell.

[congo4269]

That's a great point... hadn't thought of it that way. I guess I've been conditioned to be a 'glass half-empty' guy the last few years

Still, you have to find some gems in those later rounds to be successful. I feel like that's where you get your OL depth.

[charlton]

The teams that leapfrog to championship caliber get there by finding great players not only in the early rounds, but in the late rounds as well.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

This is one of the reasons we have such little depth on this team.

For many years in a row I'm firmly convinced we had some of the best talent in our starting lineup, though in critical positions (QB :doh: ) we were lacking. In terms of depth, there was such a dramatic drop-off that we were hanging on by a thread. This year the talent is there in quite a few positions, and suspect in others but again the drop-off after the starters is significant.

Championship teams get there through their ability to play through injuries, suspensions and anything else that keeps their starters off the field.

[Peeping Wizard]

Yea Vinny was pretty good on the early round picks. It makes me wonder if that is where he and his guys spent all their time, focus and energy. It's not difficult to picture them throwing darts at a dart board for all the day 2 picks.

I do agree with the previous poster regarding day 2 picks. That is where elite teams are built.

[ADF]

Once you get into the 5th round, your chances of finding starters isn't great. Nobody consistently does it. That's a myth. That's where you get your Rock Cartwright and Reed Doughty types. They are guys who aren't starters but they are vital to your team. The problem the Redskins have is they've traded away too many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounders. That's where you find your starters. That's especially true for key positions like the OL. It isn't too bad if the players you trade for work out and stick around. But if they are useless then it's a waste. So we end up trying to start guys like Doughty and others.

[Rexx1240]

The mere fact that Vinny had some sort of disdain against draftin o-lineman on the first day of the draft was reason enough for me to rejoice his departure.

[x96bryan10]

Wasnt Gholston a 5th round pick?

[Enter Apotheosis]

Wasnt Gholston a 5th round pick?

It's Golston... and he was actually a sixth round pick.

[Last Fan Standing]

Once you get into the 5th round, your chances of finding starters isn't great. Nobody consistently does it. That's a myth. That's where you get your Rock Cartwright and Reed Doughty types. They are guys who aren't starters but they are vital to your team. The problem the Redskins have is they've traded away too many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounders. That's where you find your starters. That's especially true for key positions like the OL. It isn't too bad if the players you trade for work out and stick around. But if they are useless then it's a waste. So we end up trying to start guys like Doughty and others.

Agreed. Happy that we've done fairly well with our 1st rounders but we have completely wasted key draft picks in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round over the last decade. While the list doesn't include swaps of draft position - I found this list of "notable trades" since 2000. Sad to look at.

Redskins notable trades...

2000 - So Dan Snyder, you just signed 4 over the hill vets in Deion Sanders, Bruce Smith, Jeff George, and Mark Carrier. What are you gonna do now? "I'm going to trade for Rodney Peete!"

Rodney Peete - Acquired from the Eagles for a 6th round pick. Wait (gasp!), the Eagles traded a QB within the division?!?

2003 - The Redskins went crazy in the restricted free agency period, giving away 3 picks as compensation for signing away restricted free agents, and also trading fro Trung Canidate. The result - They had 3 draft picks in 2003 - Taylor Jacobs, Derrick Dockery, and Gibran Hamdan. Woohooooo!

Laveranues Coles - Technically a restricted free agent, the Redskins signed away Coles from the Jets for 7 years, $35 million, and they had to give the Jets their 1st round pick (13th overall) as compensation.

Trung Canidate - Acquired from the Rams for a 4th round pick and G David Loverne.

Chad Morton - Also technically a restricted free agent, the Redskins signed away Morton from the Jets for 5 years, $8 million, and they had to give the Jets a 5th round pick as compensation.

Matt Bowen - Yet another restricted free agent, Bowen signed with the Redskins from the Packers. The Skins gave up a 6th round pick as compensation.

2004 - The Redskins wheel and deal like crazy, with a horrible trade/signing of Mark Brunell included...

Clinton Portis - The Redskins trade a 2nd round pick and Champ Bailey (at the time considered the best CB in the game) for Portis. They then sign Portis to an 8 year, $50.5 million contract. I've heard a lot of arguments why this was a good trade for the Redskins, but I just don't see it.

Mark Brunell - Acquired from the Jaguars for a 3rd round pick. they then signed him to a 7 year contract worth more than $43 million. Ouch.

James Thrash - Acquired from the Eagles for a 2005 5th round pick. Wait (gasp!), the Eagles trading a player within the division... Again?!?

2006 - Ugh

T.J. Duckett - The Redskins acquire T.J. Duckett in a 3-team deal. They give up a 3rd round pick.

Brandon Lloyd - The Redskins acquire Lloyd from the 49ers for a 3rd round pick in 2006, and a 4th round pick in 2007. They then sign him to a 6-year, $30 million deal. Oof.

2007

Pete Kendall - The Redskin acquire Pete Kendall from the Jets for a 4th round pick.

2008

Jason Taylor - The Redskins trade a 2nd round pick in 2009 and a 6th round pick in 2010 for Taylor.

Erasmus James - Acquired from the Vikings for a 7th round pick.

The entire article can be found here. http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2010/7/2/1549043/same-old-washington-redskins

[Smithian]

Thanks for ruining my day.

[Going Commando]

In fairness, we've been lucky by drafting fewer busts in the first round. Since 2005 our only 1st round bust was Jason Campbell. That's 4 picks out of 5 that are actually pro-bowl caliber (if Carlos Rogers didn't have stone hands). Orakpo, Trent Williams, Landry, Rogers...and then Campbell.

And for a first round pick that didn't live up to expectations, Campbell still hung around for what, five seasons? Even that is pretty good considering a lot of first round busts don't make it through year three. He was also our latest first round pick since 2005, so you would assume he had the lowest chance for success.

[Warhead36]

Rounds 2-4 are the money rounds of the draft. You may not get pro bowlers but you can get solid starters and quality depthin those rounds. These seem to be the rounds where we've had the fewest picks in recent years due to awful trades. Kind of backwards as the most efficient way to build a team is to utilize the picks in these rounds. From round 5 on you're usually just taking fliers on guys and are lucky to even get anyone who can land as a backup.

[Conn]

Thanks for ruining my day.

Sucks even worse, because your day JUST started

At least here.

[Rpredskins]

last fan standing, i never realized just how bad it was...

The OP is on to something, and to extend your list further: Champ Baily 99 (not positive if this was before or after snyder arrived), lavar in 2000 (didnt last very long but he was damn good), sean taylor in 2003.

And i wouldnt call JC a bust. He has had a better career than the average 1st round QB, especially considering he was drafted at 25 and not top 5 or 10.

But the fact remains than after round 1 the team has either lacked sufficient numbers of picks or picked bad players.

If you want to know why the giants and cowboys have been good the past few years, look up their drafts from '03-'08 and see how many current starters they drafted

[scruffylookin]

2000 - So Dan Snyder, you just signed 4 over the hill vets in Deion Sanders, Bruce Smith, Jeff George, and Mark Carrier. What are you gonna do now? "I'm going to trade for Rodney Peete!"

Rodney Peete - Acquired from the Eagles for a 6th round pick. Wait (gasp!), the Eagles traded a QB within the division?!?

The timeline on this is wrong. The trade for Rodney Peete occured in 1999. He was Brad Johnson's backup that season. He was cut in 2000 because of the George signing. The pick we gave the Eagles as compensation was indeed a 2000 6th rounder but again the trade itself took place a full year before the 2000 offseason signing spree.

2004 - The Redskins wheel and deal like crazy, with a horrible trade/signing of Mark Brunell included...

Clinton Portis - The Redskins trade a 2nd round pick and Champ Bailey (at the time considered the best CB in the game) for Portis. They then sign Portis to an 8 year, $50.5 million contract. I've heard a lot of arguments why this was a good trade for the Redskins, but I just don't see it.

Mark Brunell - Acquired from the Jaguars for a 3rd round pick. they then signed him to a 7 year contract worth more than $43 million. Ouch.

James Thrash - Acquired from the Eagles for a 2005 5th round pick. Wait (gasp!), the Eagles trading a player within the division... Again?!?

The Brunell trade was perhaps one of the worst we've made. No question about that.

I agree that giving up a second rounder AND Champ Bailey made no sense and still doesn't. However player for player, we've gotten more out of Clinton than we ever got out of Champ. Sorry Champ was never a true "shutdown" corner in the mold of a Deion Sanders. He wasn't a playmaker and all too often got destroyed by pedestrian receivers. Amani Toomer comes to mind.

James Thrash is an interesting case. At first I'd agree that it's insane to trade a 5th for a on the downside of his career player like Thrash. But then again we did get 5 seasons out of him playing spot duty at WR and a top special teams guy. Not sure how much more you could ask out of a 5th round selection (especially with Snyder/Gibbs/Cerrato incharge of finding the talent).

2006 - Ugh

T.J. Duckett - The Redskins acquire T.J. Duckett in a 3-team deal. They give up a 3rd round pick.

Brandon Lloyd - The Redskins acquire Lloyd from the 49ers for a 3rd round pick in 2006, and a 4th round pick in 2007. They then sign him to a 6-year, $30 million deal. Oof.

2008

Jason Taylor - The Redskins trade a 2nd round pick in 2009 and a 6th round pick in 2010 for Taylor.

Erasmus James - Acquired from the Vikings for a 7th round pick.

The entire article can be found here. http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2010/7/2/1549043/same-old-washington-redskins

The 2006 offseason will go down in infamy as one of the worst for any team in history and a text book example of how not to build a roster.

The fact that we made the same exact mistake in 2008 (Jason Taylor) as we did in 2006 (TJ Duckett) shows just how clueless this front office was as to how horrible they were doing their job.

I will never ever forget Danny saying "Why change anything?" in 2008 as if the organization had done a good job prior to that.

[SonnyJ]

Still, you have to find some gems in those later rounds to be successful. I feel like that's where you get your OL depth.

What teams have good OL depth?

[Going Commando]

The Brunell trade was perhaps one of the worst we've made. No question about that.

Not at all. Brunell gave us our best season in twenty years and one of our most memorable wins against the Cowboys ever. 2005 was worth a third round pick IMO. The Jason Taylor, Brandon Lloyd, and T.J. Duckett trades were all much, much worse.

I agree that giving up a second rounder AND Champ Bailey made no sense and still doesn't. However player for player, we've gotten more out of Clinton than we ever got out of Champ. Sorry Champ was never a true "shutdown" corner in the mold of a Deion Sanders. He wasn't a playmaker and all too often got destroyed by pedestrian receivers. Amani Toomer comes to mind.

The Champ Bailey trade seems lopsided now, but not when you realize that we were held hostage by him and had no leverage because everyone around the league knew there was no chance we could re-sign him after the season. Portis was one of the elite backs of the league. He'd posted only a hair less production than Chris Johnson has when we traded for him, and he was what, 21-22 years old at the time? I don't think that trade was lop-sided at all.

[KDawg]

Not at all. Brunell gave us our best season in twenty years and one of our most memorable wins against the Cowboys ever. 2005 was worth a third round pick IMO. The Jason Taylor, Brandon Lloyd, and T.J. Duckett trades were all much, much worse.

The Champ Bailey trade seems lopsided now, but not when you realize that we were held hostage by him and had no leverage because everyone around the league knew there was no chance we could re-sign him after the season. Portis was one of the elite backs of the league. He'd posted only a hair less production than Chris Johnson has when we traded for him, and he was what, 21-22 years old at the time? I don't think that trade was lop-sided at all.

Agree with both points. Brunell, while playing for us, was a thorn in our sides. We didn't want him because we believed the grass was greener on the other side with Patrick Ramsey/Jason Campbell. Looking back, most of us that actually believed that were very, very wrong. Brunell, as steve pointed out, gave us our most successful season in years. I thank him for that contribution now.

And Champ Bailey didn't want to be here and we could have gotten nothing for him.

[congo4269]

Yea Vinny was pretty good on the early round picks. It makes me wonder if that is where he and his guys spent all their time, focus and energy. It's not difficult to picture them throwing darts at a dart board for all the day 2 picks.

I do agree with the previous poster regarding day 2 picks. That is where elite teams are built.

And I would even argue that, for the most party, he got lucky in his 1st/2nd round picks. Picks like Orakpo, Rogers (jury still out on him), and Laron Landry were obvious choices. I'd say his only good picks in the first 2 rounds were Fred Davis (well I guess he had 3 shots in that second round), Rocky and arguably Campbell. Might be more but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

[wilco_holland]

I think that a team like the Patriots and Ravens keep finding quality late round players because they play one system for a long time. They know which skills a player needs to be succesful for them. We keep changing it, so it is very difficult for the staff to find out what type of player we need and a most of the time players don´t completely fit the system after a change.

I think if we can keep Shanahan, first the old one after that the young one, and this 3/4 D# for a long time.... we will see more later round draft picks making a impact.

[ouvan59]

Champ Bailey (at the time considered the best CB in the game)

That's some revisionist history right there. I remember his last year here Peter King put a list out of the top 10 CBs in the game and Champ was not on the list. King's comment was that he looked like an All Pro on one play and then would give up a long TD the next. He then proceeded to have his worst season as a Skin his last year here (Fred Smoot was the team defensive MVP that year). He then was traded to the Broncos and his stock immediately soared. He gave up 10 TDs that year and somehow became the Bell of the Ball all because he was no longer a Redskin. Don't get me wrong, Bailey was a good player but he wasn't nearly as good as some people would have you believe. The year of the trade we got better in both running and pass defense and the Broncos got worse at both. Go figure.