AJE: Israel approves loyalty oath

[Burgold]

I understand the need for a Jewish homeland I really do, but do you really think it needs to come at the expense of people that have been living there for generations?

You say that Israel has the right of self determination to be a Jewish state, would you also support the right to self determination if the majority decided that it didn't want to be a Jewish state that it wanted to be a Christian or a Muslim state? .

What you are talking about... whether you realize it or not is the extinction of Israel. It's another strategy to try to erradicate the country as it is and was established to be. If you turn it into a Muslim state and they instill Sharia law because that's what the new majority wants... there's no Israel anymore. So, in this case, no I would not support Israel becoming a Christian State or a Muslim State. For the record, if the majority decided they wanted a King in America, I would oppose that too, because the essense of America is Democracy. Israel is foremost a Jewish State and needs to be a haven for the Jewish people. Amazing to me that people are so intent on destroying that.

Can't a world minority have a Rhode Island chunk of land... we don't complain that you have the rest of the world. Seriously, look at the land distribution between Jewish and Muslim Lands or Christian Lands or Hindu Lands or Bhuddist Lands or pretty much any group? Is asking someone who wants to be an Israeli citizen to swear an oath to defend her as a Jewish State really such an attorocity?

[jpyaks3]

I can't even believe this is a story. Would the US allow people to emigrate here who were vocal extremists who hated america? I"m not sure they would allow that. However, this is talking about citizenship. Why is it a surprise that the Israelis might want citizens that support Israel as a Jewish state?

call me not surprised, except that this is such a big story. In other news France wants citizens who eat baguette bread LOL

Well the problem there is that people can support Israel as a state or a Jewish homeland but they don't necessarily have to support a Jewish state in Israel. What do you say to the Arab minorities who are already being treated like **** how do these people that have lived here for generations and have citizenship fit into a Jewish state? How in the world can you have a Jewish democratic state, when a significant part of your population isn't Jewish? This also has the potential for some real long term ramifications if population trends continue the Jewish population will become a minority in the next couple decades, at which point what does Israel do, it either would cease to be a Jewish state or a democratic state and I know which label Lieberman and Netanyahu wouldn't have a problem dropping.

I mean he (Netanyahu) lays it out pretty clearly that he is willing to suppress a part of the population to maintain a majority

Israel's growing demographic problem is not because of Palestinians, but of Israeli Arabs, Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said yesterday.

....

"If there is a demographic problem, and there is, it is with the Israeli Arabs who will remain Israeli citizens," he said. The Declaration of Independence said Israel should be a Jewish and democratic state, but to ensure the Jewish character was not engulfed by demography, it was necessary to ensure a Jewish majority, he said.

If Israel's Arabs become well integrated and reach 35-40 percent of the population, there will no longer be a Jewish state but a bi-national one, he said. If Arabs remain at 20 percent but relations are tense and violent, this will also harm the state's democratic fabric. "Therefore a policy is needed that will balance the two."

......

"Netnayahu's demographic time bomb is a stink bomb and a racist one," said Ahmed Tibi (Hadash). "The day is not far off when Netnayahu and his followers will set up roadblocks at the entrance to Arab villages to tie Arab women's tubes and spray them with anti-spermicide."

Azmi Bishara, of Balad (National Democratic Alliance) said: "Describing the original residents of this land as a demographic problem would be considered racism in any normal, or even abnormal, country."

Makhoul Issam Makhoul (Hadash) said: "A leader who considers 20 percent of the population of Israel to be a demographic threat and treats them as an existential problem, is himself a racist threat to democracy, sanity, and the rule of law - and he should be disposed of immediately for the good of both peoples."

Talab a-Sana (United Arab List) said: "How would Netanyahu react if someone in the West or the U.S. said that the reproduction rate of Haredi Jews was a demographic problem? Netnayahu has double standards."

Labor whip Dalia Itzik described Netanyahu as "a serial pyromaniac." She said: "He has already lit the flames between rich and poor, and now he is trying to do the same between Jews and Arabs."

Yossi Sarid, MK (Meretz), said: "It is amazing to see how great leaders can instantly be revealed as small racists. The Palestinian problem has not yet been solved in the territories and they are already trying to create another problem with Israeli Arabs... A thousand firemen will not be enough to put out the flames one frivolous man set alight."

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/netanyahu-israel-s-arabs-are-the-real-demographic-threat-1.109045

[jpyaks3]

What you are talking about... whether you realize it or not is the extinction of Israel. It's another strategy to try to erradicate the country as it is and was established to be. If you turn it into a Muslim state and they instill Sharia law because that's what the new majority wants... there's no Israel anymore. So, in this case, no I would not support Israel becoming a Christian State or a Muslim State. For the record, if the majority decided they wanted a King in America, I would oppose that too, because the essense of America is Democracy. Israel is foremost a Jewish State and needs to be a haven for the Jewish people. Amazing to me that people are so intent on destroying that.

Can't a world minority have a Rhode Island chunk of land... we don't complain that you have the rest of the world. Seriously, look at the land distribution between Jewish and Muslim Lands or Christian Lands or Hindu Lands or Bhuddist Lands or pretty much any group? Is asking someone who wants to be an Israeli citizen to swear an oath to defend her as a Jewish State really such an attorocity?

There needs to not be a Muslim state or a Christian state in Israel there needs to be a secular state that has strong protections for its minorities. Thats why having **** like what the current government is doing is very dangerous, because you are pissing off a population that will soon probably be the majority.

I am sorry but I cannot support an apartheid state where the minority oppresses the majority simply because that minority happens to be Jewish. And that is the path that Israel is moving down right now.

The problem with your analogy of Rhode Island is that that doesn't take into account the Palestinians who had been living for generations on the land. You can't simply compare the size of Israel to the size of the Arab world because the problem is the Palestinians have been living on the land for generations, they don't have ties to Morocco or Libya and to say well its only a small thing look at what else "you" have is bull**** because they don't have anything else. Lumping in all Arabs or Muslims into one group is bull**** because they are not one group not even close to it. I understand the need for a Jewish homeland but it cannot come at the expense of the rights of others or the rights of citizens within Israel, it just can't that isn't sustainable and its morally corrupt. You can't simply decide you have a demographic problem then try to fix it with policies that are against that population, its not the way it works and the current Israeli government needs to recognize this. A secular state that is built on Jewish character and culture and history that protects all minorities is what is needed and its the only way for Israel to continue to be sustainable short of expelling Arabs.

EDIT: Also I have the rest of the world?

EDIT 2: I don't want to destroy the Jewishness of Israel, Israel being a Jewish state would be fine if 20 percent (and growing) of their population wasn't a minority that is being suppressed. The fact is that Israel isn't all Jewish and a sizable minority are not Jewish and that causes the problem.

[Burgold]

EDIT: Also I have the rest of the world?

Don't you?

EDIT 2: I don't want to destroy the Jewishness of Israel, Israel being a Jewish state would be fine if 20 percent (and growing) of their population wasn't a minority that is being suppressed. The fact is that Israel isn't all Jewish and a sizable minority are not Jewish and that causes the problem.

Sure you do, Seymore. You want to get rid of the Jewish character of the state and replace it with a secular one.

[jpyaks3]

After thinking about it I guess what I find so disheartening is given the history of Jewish people and their prosecution throughout history one would hope that the Jewish state of Israel would be a lot more sensitive to minorities within its own borders. They wouldn't be viewing their minorities as a population bomb or a demographic problem, instead they would work hard to establish strong protections for minority rights that they have been deprived of throughout history. They would work to give minorities in their borders the rights and respect that the Jewish people struggled throughout history to obtain. Instead tts depressing to think that a community that has been prosecuted and discriminated against as a minority throughout history has no problems turning around and doing the same thing to another group inside its own borders.

[Thiebear]

You want them to be SO sensitive that they remove any reference to being a Jewish State? (Asking a bit much are we?)

This is a voluntary citizenship oath were talking here.... everyone has one.

[jpyaks3]

Sure you do, Seymore. You want to get rid of the Jewish character of the state and replace it with a secular one.

No I just can look at the facts on the ground and realize hey, this isn't a monolithic Jewish state, hey people exist as citizens that aren't Jewish, and realize that these people deserve the same rights and responsibilities that Jews do in Israel. The problem with the Jewish state is that it totally discounts a significant part of its population.

[jpyaks3]

You want them to be SO sensitive that they remove any reference to being a Jewish State? (Asking a bit much are we?)

This is a voluntary citizenship oath were talking here.... everyone has one.

I want Israel to stop treating its Arab citizens like second class citizens, this oath is just one part of a larger problem.

[Burgold]

After thinking about it I guess what I find so disheartening is given the history of Jewish people and their prosecution throughout history one would hope that the Jewish state of Israel would be a lot more sensitive to minorities within its own borders. They wouldn't be viewing their minorities as a population bomb or a demographic problem, instead they would work hard to establish strong protections for minority rights that they have been deprived of throughout history. They would work to give minorities in their borders the rights and respect that the Jewish people struggled throughout history to obtain. Instead tts depressing to think that a community that has been prosecuted and discriminated against as a minority throughout history has no problems turning around and doing the same thing to another group inside its own borders.

I think it's because of the history of the world towards the Jewish people that these thing occur. If there had been no persecution, heck if there wasn't daily persecution and attacks, if you want to disregard the biggies then the idea of a Jewish State wouldn't have ever been necessary or necessary to defend.

Think about it. Why did Palestine lose it's land? What is their stated goal? What is the understated goal of much of the rest of the Middle East. The goal is irradication. Extinction. Murder. They don't even pretend that it's not. Gives one a right to be a little defensive, no? Israel only gained land through being attacked.

It can not be a Jewish refuge without being a Jewish state. The United States may be the only exception to that. The only oasis and even here you see pockets of intolerance, violence, and hate... as we saw last week.

[jpyaks3]

I think it's because of the history of the world towards the Jewish people that these thing occur. If there had been no persecution, heck if there wasn't daily persecution and attacks, if you want to disregard the biggies then the idea of a Jewish State wouldn't have ever been necessary or necessary to defend.

Think about it. Why did Palestine lose it's land? What is their stated goal? What is the understated goal of much of the rest of the Middle East. The goal is irradication. Extinction. Murder. They don't even pretend that it's not. Gives one a right to be a little defensive, no? Israel only gained land through being attacked.

It can not be a Jewish refuge without being a Jewish state. The United States may be the only exception to that. The only oasis and even here you see pockets of intolerance, violence, and hate... as we saw last week.

Egypt has a peace deal with Israel, not exactly the best way to murder, eradicate, or destroy a state huh? Jordan, peace deal. The Arab Peace Initiative. Turkey and Israel have strong ties. Lebanon and Syria have ongoing land disputes so no peace but not exactly trying to eradicate them. So saying the whole Middle East is against Israel is bull****. Saying their goals are eradication, murder and extinction, bull****. Yeah Palestinians are pissed, but do they really not have a right to be? Lets not pretend its little old Israel against the world, that may have applied somewhat in 1948 but it no longer applies now and it is not an excuse for Israels treatment of its own Arab population or the Palestinian people.

Also don't think Israel was attacked in 1967.....

[Thiebear]

ERUSALEM – Israel's prime minister offered to renew a moratorium on Jewish settlement construction in the West Bank on Monday, but only if the Palestinians meet his demand to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

little give, little take.

[jpyaks3]

ERUSALEM – Israel's prime minister offered to renew a moratorium on Jewish settlement construction in the West Bank on Monday, but only if the Palestinians meet his demand to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

little give, little take.

We will stop illegally stealing your land if you grant us a big concession. Thats not a little give little take.

[twa]

Recognizing reality is a big concession?...no wonder there is no progress.

[Thiebear]

No unless they specifically excluded a minority of its citizens.

You are missing the point.

If there was a significant minority population that they deliberately excluded with their oath than I absolutely would have a problem. I have no problem with pledging loyalty to an Israeli nation my problem is with a JEWISH Israel. By putting in Jewish you are excluded a significant portion of your population.

So we admit its a Jewish nation, we just don't want people to say it?

[jpyaks3]

Recognizing reality is a big concession?...no wonder there is no progress.

Recognizing the state of Israel isn't, recognizing that its a Jewish state is because once again, there is a large population of non-Jewish Arabs.

[Smoot Point Really]

Whenever I talk to non-Palestinians about Palestinians, I usually end up feeling like I am talking to an intolerable douche bag.

[Popeman38]

No unless they specifically excluded a minority of its citizens.

You are missing the point.

If there was a significant minority population that they deliberately excluded with their oath than I absolutely would have a problem. I have no problem with pledging loyalty to an Israeli nation my problem is with a JEWISH Israel. By putting in Jewish you are excluded a significant portion of your population.

If the situation in Israel was reversed, we would not be having this conversation. All the Jews would be forced out.

[jpyaks3]

If the situation in Israel was reversed, we would not be having this conversation. All the Jews would be forced out.

You have absolutely no basis for that (if we are looking at alternate histories). Look at relations between Palestinians and Jews before Zionism really kicked in, there were no (big) problems there they lived peacefully together.

[Burgold]

Recognizing the state of Israel isn't, recognizing that its a Jewish state is because once again, there is a large population of non-Jewish Arabs.

So, we shouldn't say the U.S. is a representative democracy because the majority doesn't vote? I mean why should we discriminate. Why should we offend the apathetic? There's probably sizeable minorities that believe in alternate styles of governance. Basically, what you are saying is that in the U.S neither the Constitution nor majority rule matters, but that all decisions need to be made to exalt and placate any minority. If a sizable minority thinks that Bill of Rights endangers America's safety (which recent history shows is true) We must repeal the Bill of Rights.

If ten percent believe in capitol punishment with no appeals. Done deal.

Afterall, by your logic, you can't call Israel a Jewish State when the vast majority is Jewish, the State was incorporated as a Jewish state, the guiding legal documents say so, because you don't want to offend the minority who understood this and agreed to this coming in.

[Thiebear]

ERUSALEM – Israel's prime minister offered to renew a moratorium on Jewish settlement construction in the West Bank on Monday, but only if the Palestinians meet his demand to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

little give, little take.

We will stop illegally stealing your land if you grant us a big concession. Thats not a little give little take.

a BIG Concession is to "say" the obvious? I can see where your not going to change your mind.

If they'd do the obvious: They would be a State themselves.

Or can there not be a Palestinian State as their might be Jewish people in there as a minority (You like that? sound familiar)

[jpyaks3]

a BIG Concession is to "say" the obvious? I can see where your not going to change your mind.

If they'd do the obvious: They would be a State themselves.

Or can there not be a Palestinian State as their might be Jewish people in there as a minority (You like that? sound familiar)

Palestinians can be Christian, Muslim, or gasp even Jewish, so your comment at the end doesn't really make sense.

[Prosperity]

ERUSALEM – Israel's prime minister offered to renew a moratorium on Jewish settlement construction in the West Bank on Monday.

you believe that don't you?

there's no reason to believe that the Israelis will ever stop building new settlements. They will gobble up every last bit of the West Bank.

[Koala]

you believe that don't you?

there's no reason to believe that the Israelis will ever stop building new settlements. They will gobble up every last bit of the West Bank.

If you believe that, then you must believe that war against Israel is the arab's only option. And that Ahmedinijad's statement that Israel must be removed is actually true. And that Hamas's charter is correct. And that the concept of jihad, that justice must be fought for violently, is legitimate.

[Prosperity]

If you believe that, then you must believe that war against Israel is the arab's only option. And that Ahmedinijad's statement that Israel must be removed is actually true. And that Hamas's charter is correct. And that the concept of jihad, that justice must be fought for violently, is legitimate.

and that the world is flat, and that evolution is wrong, and that I hate America and that I hate freedom

care to add other non sequiturs?

[Koala]

Its logic Prosperity. Your viewpoint is common and problematic. There are plenty of people that think Israel is trying to annihalate the Palestinians completely. The problem is, if Israel doesnt ever stop the settlements, and tries to take all the land, then Hamas and Iran are absolutely correct about Israel and have every right to try to remove it from existence. Why should the arabs try to peacefully co-exist with a state that plans to take everything from them? If you accept that Israel's intention is to completely destroy the Palestinians and leave nothing for them, then Hamas's charter and Ahmedinijad's statement are actually quite logical.

I dont believe that Israel plans to keep the settlement building forever. I think Israel is taking advantage of weakness of the arabs and reflexive US support to grab what they can now, understanding that they will soon have to stop. I think they realize that sooner or later a US president will force them to stop, or that the arabs will eventually develop a military deterrent that will force them to stop. But the longer they continue the settlements, the more people will assume that they intend to take all, and the more Hamas and Iran will be vindicated.