AJE: Israel approves loyalty oath

[Burgold]

Problem isn't pledging loyalty to Israel its the Jewish part thats causing problems. Not everyone in Israel is Jewish whether Netanyahu or Lieberman like it or not, and this is just one of many many things that the Israeli government does to disenfranchise the non-Jewish minorities.

Israel's not a Jewish state? It was defined that way from the beginning. Everyone knows it. That was the purpose of granting land to the Israelis. Beyond that, I also think you are reading too much into it.

Pledging to be loyal to a Jewish State is pledging to be loyal to the country. It's not a demand that you convert to Judaism. This complaint is people looking for a fight to pick. I'd quote our loyalty oath, but Thiebear beat me to it. I suspect you belive that Bhuddists, Confusionists, Taoists, Secularists, and atheists are being discriminated against when taking the U.S. loyalty oath?

[twa]

Problem isn't pledging loyalty to Israel its the Jewish part thats causing problems. .

If the Palestinians ever get a sovereign nation I suppose you would have the same objection to a oath of loyalty to a Palestinian nation?

Seems a odd complaint

[jpyaks3]

If the Palestinians ever get a sovereign nation I suppose you would have the same objection to a oath of loyalty to a Palestinian nation?

Seems a odd complaint

No unless they specifically excluded a minority of its citizens.

You are missing the point.

If there was a significant minority population that they deliberately excluded with their oath than I absolutely would have a problem. I have no problem with pledging loyalty to an Israeli nation my problem is with a JEWISH Israel. By putting in Jewish you are excluded a significant portion of your population.

[twa]

But the oath is only for new citizens,how is that excluding those that are already part of a Jewish Israel?

Surely you are not objecting to the jews allowing non-jews citizenship?

[jpyaks3]

But the oath is only for new citizens,how is that excluding those that are already part of a Jewish Israel?

Because the minorities that are already living there are being told that they are part of a Jewish state. Combine that with the way the Israeli government has treated its minorities and its a troublesome situation.

Once again its like saying that the United States is a white nation and making immigrants say an oath that states such. That would rightfully cause a huge uproar in minority communities.

I guess if you don't have a problem with a minority (majority) community being treated pretty terribly than calling it a democracy (not saying you are doing this but a lot of people do)

I am not positive but I believe this Jewish state definition is relatively recent, at least officially. Israel was set up to be a home for the Jewish people not necessarily a Jewish state.

Sorry if that explanation doesn't really make sense but its like 330 in the morning here and its the best I can come up with.

[Burgold]

Is there a problem with Israel being a Jewish state? Ain't that what it is? What it was intended to be? What the land was granted for?

I mean that's like being upset with the United States for being a Democracy or Vatican City for being a Catholic State.

Now, just because it's a Jewish State doesn't mean that everyone has to be Jewish, but it does mean that it is a key part of the nation's identity. And frankly, it is.

[jpyaks3]

Is there a problem with Israel being a Jewish state? Ain't that what it is? What it was intended to be? What the land was granted for?

I mean that's like being upset with the United States for being a Democracy or Vatican City for being a Catholic State.

Now, just because it's a Jewish State doesn't mean that everyone has to be Jewish, but it does mean that it is a key part of the nation's identity. And frankly, it is.

I think I would be more comfortable with it if Israel treated its minorities better, not just the Palestinians but the Christian and Muslim Arabs that reside in Israel. I also think referring to it as a Jewish state causes long term problems because what happens when Jews cease to be the majority. Why not say it is a secular state that is the home of the Jewish people.

[twa]

A state set up for the Jews is not a Jewish state?

No that doesn't make sense...the treatment of minorities and quibbling over a type of democracy seems a bit odd linkage to a oath that people have to apply to take.

Is Israel forcing people to apply for citizenship?

[Burgold]

I think I would be more comfortable with it if Israel treated its minorities better, not just the Palestinians but the Christian and Muslim Arabs that reside in Israel. I also think referring to it as a Jewish state causes long term problems because what happens when Jews cease to be the majority. Why not say it is a secular state that is the home of the Jewish people.

Being principly American, I believe in equality and in a secular state. However, that's the U.S. Israel was defined as a Jewish State. It was not intended to be a secular state, but a homeland for the Jews and a safe place for Jews to be able to practice their beliefs in a world that was overwhelmingly hostile... and frankly, still is.

Israel should strive to treat every citizen and vistior justly and equally. That's a given. That doesn't mean surrendering their identity. Do you think the Pledge of America is offensive and should be done away with? Do you think singing the National Anthem at ballparks should be banned because it would offend the sensabilities of tourists and immigrants? Do you think that "In God We Trust" invalidates our currency? Do you think it's inappropriate to fly the American flag outside schools because there are students of different ethnicities who may go there?

Do you think a nation shouldn't have a loyalty oath that fits within its constitutional definition?

Besides, if Israel declared itself a secular state and home of the Jewish people. People would very quickly find fault in that too. They'd say... how come it isn't home to X. Doesn't X have a right to have a home too? Why is it a home to the Jewish people and not everyone?

This is a rhetorical bit of gamesmanship and a no win situation...

[jpyaks3]

A state set up for the Jews is not a Jewish state?

No that doesn't make sense...the treatment of minorities and quibbling over a type of democracy seems a bit odd linkage to a oath that people have to apply to take.

Is Israel forcing people to apply for citizenship?

Alright so what happens when the Jews become the minority in Israel?

The problem is this is yet another action in a long line of actions to try and de-legitimize the Arab populations role in Israel. It is fine to recognize your cultural heritage, but its not fine to suppress part of your population, give special rights to people based on their ethnic or religious backgrounds. This oath is part of a much larger problem in Israel.

Is it necessary to add in the Jewish part of that statement? Why not just the state of Israel, do those Arabs not have a stake in Israel or are they simply second class citizens because they are not Jewish.

When you treat your minorities like **** and put in stuff like the Jewish state of Israel, disregarding a very sizable minority of your population then its tough to give the Israeli government the benefit of the doubt.

[jpyaks3]

Being principly American, I believe in equality and in a secular state. However, that's the U.S. Israel was defined as a Jewish State. It was not intended to be a secular state, but a homeland for the Jews and a safe place for Jews to be able to practice their beliefs in a world that was overwhelmingly hostile... and frankly, still is.

I don't know about that, Balfour declaration didn't quite say that

His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country

Israel should strive to treat every citizen and vistior justly and equally. That's a given. That doesn't mean surrendering their identity. Do you think the Pledge of America is offensive and should be done away with? Do you think singing the National Anthem at ballparks should be banned because it would offend the sensabilities of tourists and immigrants? Do you think that "In God We Trust" invalidates our currency? Do you think it's inappropriate to fly the American flag outside schools because there are students of different ethnicities who may go there?

Do you think a nation shouldn't have a loyalty oath that fits within its constitutional definition?

Besides, if Israel declared itself a secular state and home of the Jewish people. People would very quickly find fault in that too. They'd say... how come it isn't home to X. Doesn't X have a right to have a home too? Why is it a home to the Jewish people and not everyone?

This is a rhetorical bit of gamesmanship and a no win situation...

You don't have to forget your culture or heritage or identity of a Jewish homeland. What the problem is is when you declare yourself simply a Jewish state, where does that leave the minorities, do you think that Arabs that have lived their entire lives as Israeli citizens and have had generations live on the land make up an important part of Israel?

Lets not put words into anyone else's mouths about finding faults if Israel remained secular and a home of the Jewish people.

Lets say in 20 years the population trends continue and Israel is no longer a Jewish majority state, would you still support defining it solely as a Jewish state?

[twa]

Alright so what happens when the Jews become the minority in Israel?

The problem is this is yet another action in a long line of actions to try and de-legitimize the Arab populations role in Israel. It is fine to recognize your cultural heritage, but its not fine to suppress part of your population, give special rights to people based on their ethnic or religious backgrounds. This oath is part of a much larger problem in Israel.

Is it necessary to add in the Jewish part of that statement? Why not just the state of Israel, do those Arabs not have a stake in Israel or are they simply second class citizens because they are not Jewish.

When you treat your minorities like **** and put in stuff like the Jewish state of Israel, disregarding a very sizable minority of your population then its tough to give the Israeli government the benefit of the doubt.

I think you can easily find the answer in how the minority Jewish state was/is treated IF ya wanted to be upfront about it.

Kinda hypocritical to call out Israels treatment of it's Arab citizens while ignoring the Arab treatment of Israel and jews(as well as Palestinians) ain't it?

The vocal objections to new citizens recognizing the present Israeli reality mirrors many of Israel's neighbors denial of reality and their desire to change it.

[Burgold]

Lets say in 20 years the population trends continue and Israel is no longer a Jewish majority state, would you still support defining it solely as a Jewish state?

I would. Let's look at the world. The Muslim world. The Christian world. The Hindu World. The Bhuddist World.

I think Israel's tiny enough that it can remain a Jewish Homeland. Personally, if others are that miserable they should defect. They should emigrate. People have left Cuba, the Soviet Union, Haiti, and all kinds of country, heck, they've even left the United States because they were uncomfortable with the laws of the land. Arab Israelis and Christian Israelis do have the right to leave. They also have the right to come. They have the right to become citizens. Israel has the right of self-determination to be a Jewish State.

[Jrew1223]

Did everyone just by pass the points I made earlier in this thread? It seems so because I already filleted it out for all parties involved. The problem with this piece of legislation is who was responsible for creating it. Avigdor Lieberman represents the views of a faction of Israelis who believe that they have the right to the land in the West Bank. The problem is when you mix something like this with the idea of Israeli democracy to where you don't have protected rights just by being a citizen. Any law can be changed and any minority can be infringed upon through a simple parliament majority. You guys need to realize that the current government's final goal is to annex the West Bank as a part of Israel and get rid of the Palestinian population. While all the diplomatic riff raff is going on in the name of a peace process, the Israelis are building settlements as fast as possible to make sure that no viable Palestinian state could come to fruition. The Likud party charter specifically states that it will seek to undermine the establishment of a Palestinian state in any form and that the lands of Judea and Sumeria are exclusively for Jews only.

[jpyaks3]

I would. Let's look at the world. The Muslim world. The Christian world. The Hindu World. The Bhuddist World.

I think Israel's tiny enough that it can remain a Jewish Homeland. Personally, if others are that miserable they should defect. They should emigrate. People have left Cuba, the Soviet Union, Haiti, and all kinds of country, heck, they've even left the United States because they were uncomfortable with the laws of the land. Arab Israelis and Christian Israelis do have the right to leave. They also have the right to come. They have the right to become citizens. Israel has the right of self-determination to be a Jewish State.

I understand the need for a Jewish homeland I really do, but do you really think it needs to come at the expense of people that have been living there for generations?

You say that Israel has the right of self determination to be a Jewish state, would you also support the right to self determination if the majority decided that it didn't want to be a Jewish state that it wanted to be a Christian or a Muslim state?

Israel needs to retain its cultural identity, but the way to do that isn't to push down and suppress the minorities there, its to work with the people and make it a secular state with the rich Jewish heritage that it possesses. There are ways to retain the Jewish identity and the Jewish heritage without pressing down on the minorities.

I guess my larger point is that its not a good idea for a majority to legislate against the minority Israel needs to be recognized as a Jewish homeland but it does not need to be at the expense of the minorities residing in Israel as Israeli citizens.

[jpyaks3]

I think you can easily find the answer in how the minority Jewish state was/is treated IF ya wanted to be upfront about it.

Kinda hypocritical to call out Israels treatment of it's Arab citizens while ignoring the Arab treatment of Israel and jews(as well as Palestinians) ain't it?

The vocal objections to new citizens recognizing the present Israeli reality mirrors many of Israel's neighbors denial of reality and their desire to change it.

Is this thread about the Arab treatment of Israel or the Jews? No, are we sending 3 billion dollars in military aid to Arab governments? No. This is about Israeli policy and its treatment of minorities within Israel. If you want more governments like Iran than I guess thats your prerogative, but I would rather see states moving in the opposite direction rather than slipping towards states like Iran like Israel seems to be doing here.

[twa]

Is this thread about the Arab treatment of Israel or the Jews? No, are we sending 3 billion dollars in military aid to Arab governments? No. This is about Israeli policy and its treatment of minorities within Israel. If you want more governments like Iran than I guess thats your prerogative, but I would rather see states moving in the opposite direction rather than slipping towards states like Iran like Israel seems to be doing here.

Deflections from the answer to your question of why it is important to have it defined as a Jewish state does not help your position.

The world's(including the Arabs ) treatment of the jews made(and continues to make) the need for a jewish state plain.(as well as the need for Israels military)

I will gladly join with you in support of equality and respect for others right to life though.

[jpyaks3]

Deflections from the answer to your question of why it is important to have it defined as a Jewish state does not help your position.

The world's(including the Arabs ) treatment of the jews made(and continues to make) the need for a jewish state plain.(as well as the need for Israels military)

I will gladly join with you in support of equality and respect for others right to life though.

There needs to be a Jewish homeland, no one is really arguing that. I am however arguing that right now Israel needs to strengthen minority rights because right now they are nowhere near where they need to be. This is a step in the wrong direction, then again I am also against the Arab governments that do it but I don't see anyone at all defending Iran's use of Islamic identity to set up the state.

[Jrew1223]

I'm so tired of this back and forth everytime there is a news story coming out of that region. We are never going to get anywhere simply because in order to do so we would need an accurate picture of history to be able to put the events of today in perspective. I would say that 98% of the poplation in western nations actually believe that Jews were in danger of being pushed into the sea by the scary Arab super armies. What a joke we are... Even the Israeli government and military leaders of that time admitted that the war was their choosing and if Nasser hadn't put the tank regiment in the Sinai they would have manufactured a reason to invade regardless. They did it to knock out Nasser from modernizing Egypt and if the conditions were favorable to reshape the borders of Israel by acquiring more land. Don't believe me? PM me and I will prove it to you using only Israeli sources.

[twa]

There needs to be a Jewish homeland, no one is really arguing that. I am however arguing that right now Israel needs to strengthen minority rights because right now they are nowhere near where they need to be. This is a step in the wrong direction, then again I am also against the Arab governments that do it but I don't see anyone at all defending Iran's use of Islamic identity to set up the state.

The minority rights are obviously good enough that more minorities are seeking citizenship there:)...Is there room for employment?...Yes

I however do not see why new citizens declaring Israel a jewish state obstructs that improvement,seems like quibbling when so many more important issues exist in the region.

Perhaps you should call for the surrounding nations to recognize Israel as a jewish state as a way of reassuring Israelis and enabling a atmosphere conducive to addressing minority issues there.

It would seem they have developed a bit of a persecution complex.

[Prosperity]

Is there a problem with Israel being a Jewish state? Ain't that what it is? What it was intended to be? What the land was granted for?

I mean that's like being upset with the United States for being a Democracy or Vatican City for being a Catholic State.

Now, just because it's a Jewish State doesn't mean that everyone has to be Jewish, but it does mean that it is a key part of the nation's identity. And frankly, it is.

well, Americans have a justified dislike of Organized Religion + government

also there's the whole how "land was granted for" part lol if that's what you want to call it

[Veretax]

I can't even believe this is a story. Would the US allow people to emigrate here who were vocal extremists who hated america? I"m not sure they would allow that. However, this is talking about citizenship. Why is it a surprise that the Israelis might want citizens that support Israel as a Jewish state?

call me not surprised, except that this is such a big story. In other news France wants citizens who eat baguette bread LOL

[Smoot Point Really]

The Oath is outrageous

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend Israel against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the Israel when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of Israel when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.[1]

its the US oath

I am having trouble seeing the problem with this... Where is the word Jew or Jewish? I admit that it is early and I am still groggy.

It looks similar to our oath. If you don't want to take the oath, don't take it. Nobody is forcing...

[Thiebear]

Psst: Its the American oath of loyalty; I just substituted United States with Israeli to prove a point.

If you want outrage on a loyalty oath, you might want to read up on what we have.

[jpyaks3]

Psst: Its the American oath of loyalty; I just substituted United States with Israeli to prove a point.

If you want outrage on a loyalty oath, you might want to read up on what we have.

Well by trying to prove a point you entirely missed the point of why a loyalty oath that included a statement about the Jewish state would be offensive. The problem (once again) isn't with a loyalty oath its with the fact that the Israeli government has done everything it could to disenfranchise the Arab minority and this is just another step in that direction No one is arguing over having a loyalty oath I am arguing over adding in the Jewish state part and effectively saying **** you to the Arabs that live there as citizens and that have lived there for generations. Are they suddenly no longer part of the state? Are they suddenly not part of the identity of Israel? No matter what Netanyahu and Lieberman want to believe they exist and play a part in Israeli society,