Productivity from a Defensive Tackle Standpoint

[authentic]

I agree, BLC. His conditioning, was at best, poor.

Remember, though, we have a new strength and conditioning staff and the switch from a HIT style training routine to what I gather is a conjugate system should absolutely help get Haynesworth in MUCH better shape.

As a sidebar. I do like the fact that both Shanny and Allen has put an emphasis on March 15th (the beginning of the offseason conditioning program). I expect this team to be much more physically stronger and durable than in the past. Hopefully that includes Big Al.

[Morneblade]

I agree fully. His conditioning, quite frankly, sucked. He needs to be in MUCH better shape. But, he was constantly facing multiple offensive players which will wear someone down, especially someone not in great shape (like Haynesworth).

He absolutely did his job, in my opinion. Our sack totals sky rocketed (some of that, obviously in thanks to the pass rushing skills of Orakpo) and he was a large part of the reason why.

So, here's another question, ES, what can Haynesworth do to make himself viewed as being productive from the vast majority of our fanbase? What do you think? Get in better shape? Get more sacks/tackles? Anything you think, please post.

I really like the direction this thread is going, so let's keep pushing it

I think AL had a good year last year, but conditioning was a major flaw for him last yer. Being that he is a UT guy, I've followed him in the pros. 350 is not a good wieght for him, he not only lost stamina, but quickness. All at 325 is just as strong, but his first step is quicker and he was alot more disruptive as a DT in Tenn, throwing away the scheme differences that there were as well. His conditioning was better too.He's kinda a unique guy in that most DT fall into or of 2 typical types, smaller qucik guys that are gap shooters but get moved out by 2 blockers (think a young Griffin) or bigger guys that are strong enough to take 2 guys, but dont get much penetration (think Montgomery when he is motivated) Albert can be both, which is what scares OC's so much, you can block him with 2 guys and he can stand them up, or he can split them and blow up the backfield (or the QB) He's also quick enough to play DE in a 4-3 in spots. This year we didnt see the quickness he has had in the past because he came in too heavy (IMO) and his conditioning wasnt up to par either.

Albert when healthy and in shape is a guy that can get you 50 tackles (a ton for a DT) and 6-8 sacks (a ton for a DT) and still stand 2 guys and stuff a 4 and 1 regularly.

If he gets down in wieght, you'll see a guy that is more explosive than he was this year, but just as strong at the point of attack.

[MattFancy]

So, here's another question, ES, what can Haynesworth do to make himself viewed as being productive from the vast majority of our fanbase? What do you think? Get in better shape? Get more sacks/tackles? Anything you think, please post.

I really like the direction this thread is going, so let's keep pushing it

The only way people will be happy with Haynesworth is if he leads the league in sacks and plays every single defensive snap. Which sadly won't happen. Yes he signed a monster contract, but that's not his fault. Who wouldn't sign for all that money.

As long as he stays healthy and our defense has a solid pass rush, I'll be happy with Haynesworth being here.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I agree, BLC. His conditioning, was at best, poor.

Remember, though, we have a new strength and conditioning staff and the switch from a HIT style training routine to what I gather is a conjugate system should absolutely help get Haynesworth in MUCH better shape.

but see now the problem is, can he still be a disruptive force at a DE in a 3-4 defense? say the new coach gets him into awesome shape, sweet, problem solved, we have a healthy in game shape albert haynesworth..............at a completely different position that hes never played before.

the question now will be his transition. is he a patient enough multi millionaire to have some growing pains at his new position while getting better each week? or is the first sign of struggle going to cause him to spaz out and claim he doesnt like this defense and hes not this type of player and hes not made for this type of defense?

time will tell i guess. weve heard that our defense will have two packages, and while i dont worry about him at all in a 4-3 scheme, the DE position at the 3-4 may be a problem for him. lets just hope he studies and works hard at getting great at the position so we can have our own version of vince wilfork on speed. lol

[Morneblade]

but see now the problem is, can he still be a disruptive force at a DE in a 3-4 defense? say the new coach gets him into awesome shape, sweet, problem solved, we have a healthy in game shape albert haynesworth..............at a completely different position that hes never played before.

time will tell i guess. weve heard that our defense will have two packages, and while i dont worry about him at all in a 4-3 scheme, the DE position at the 3-4 may be a problem for him. lets just hope he studies and works hard at getting great at the position so we can have our own version of vince wilfork on speed. lol

DE in a 3-4 is very simlar to a DT in a 4-3. NT is the 3-4 spot I dont really want to see him at, especially in a 2 gap scheme.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

DE in a 3-4 is very simlar to a DT in a 4-3. NT is the 3-4 spot I dont really want to see him at, especially in a 2 gap scheme.

ill admit im not very familiar with the responsibilities of a DE in the 3-4, but if what youre saying is true, that is good news for haynesworth.

so we should be expecting richard seymour/vince wilfork production out of him, as long as hes in shape?

[bikie]

AH absolutely did his job, in my opinion... I wasn't in favor of him coming here from the conditioning, injury, and cap ramifications (especially when we had such a GLARING need on oline) but he did exactly what I expected from him... I know midway through the season, he had played 10% more snaps than at tenn but I'm not sure how that ended up at the close of the season (more or less snaps)...

he collapsed the pocket, flushed the QB to the outside, right into our DE's... if you've watched carter over the years, he demanded all the protection... teams chipped him, slide protection his way, basically double teamed him every play.. this year they couldn't afford to do that and everyone enjoyed man-to-man assignments...

but he needs to concentrate on his conditioning and become more effective against the run, especially late in the game..

[Morneblade]

ill admit im not very familiar with the responsibilities of a DE in the 3-4, but if what youre saying is true, that is good news for haynesworth.

so we should be expecting richard seymour/vince wilfork production out of him, as long as hes in shape?

At a minimum. Yes, it's a high bar, but he already with Seymour in season highs for tackles and sacks while playing in less games.

[Going Commando]

So with all of that said, why, or why do you not view Albert Haynesworth a success in our system from last season.

Because he generally won his matchups and when he was at the PoA he almost always won.

First and foremost, it was important for us to sign him because he's an elite run defender and we needed that presence in the middle. He had 22 individual stops according to PFF which is a solid number for a DT. They define a stop as a tackle leading to an offensive failure which I take to mean tackles for loss (and sacks) and tackles which prevent a first down on 3rd and 4th downs. I think this is the kind of number that will increase next year if Haynesworth gets to play end in a 3-4 front.

Second, he probably had even more of an impact in our passing game because of his individual ability to draw double teams, collapse the pocket, and register individual hits and pressures himself. Individually, I think he had the greatest impact on the team because he tied for the league lead among QB hits for DTs with 11. That means he was split seconds away from getting 11 sacks. And being the physical intimidator that he is, when Haynesworth lands a hit it's almost always a very bad play for a QB. He was also solid in sacks and pressures coming in at 6th and 15th in the rankings respectively.

Comparing his pressure numbers to a guy like Tony Brown who led the league, you see the type of rusher Haynesworth is. Brown had an astounding 33 attributed pressures (not an official stat but I trust PFF) but generated only 5 sacks and 7 hits off of that. Compare that to Haynesworth who had only 12 pressures but 11 hits. That signifies to me that when Haynesworth gets a pressure, he's not just collapsing the pocket--he's getting free to make the play himself. That gives him value as an attacking lineman since he's clearly able to disengage and break down to make plays when he's got an opening.

Overall, I think Haynesworth was very good last year but we could get even more out of him by tweaking his role. I think he should play 1 gap almost exclusively and I'd like to see him split wider from center to take advantage of his length and explosion going up against tackles who might not have the base to fend him off.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Ngata prolonged Ray Lewis's career. It's thought that Chicago needs an NT very badly to help prolong Brian Urlacher's career.

If we get a stud NT, Fletcher will be able to do his thing for awhile longer.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Funny you mention that. I remember before the Ravens drafted Ngata, Ray was crying to the media of not having his "Scottie Pippen" (a great NT) since he was the "Michael Jordan" . It got so ugly that he was close to demanding a trade because of this. I about 100% certain this is why they drafted Ngata in '06 - was to keep Ray happy. It also goes to show how much the LBs value the DTs.

Very very true. Bart Scott said he wouldn't have signed with the Jets if they didn't have Kris Jenkins.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

I'm glad you posted that stat.

It's very telling in my mind. Carters productivity jumped up by almost ten sacks and VandenBosch's went down by almost ten sacks.

That seems extremely important to this conversation.

The next question, of course, is was that whole thing coincidence? My feeling is absolutely not, but, I'm sure there is some argument that can be made for that side of the fence. And if anyone has it, please bring it to light

Not just that. People don't realize that Carter was #4 out of ALL d-lineman, DT or DE, at total tackles last season. He had 62 tackles, the league leader for d-lineman was 66.

In comparison...Jared Allen had 43.

[Going Commando]

I agree, BLC. His conditioning, was at best, poor.

I don't agree with this. He missed three games with injury but I don't know if that's a conditioning issue. Otherwise he played over 70% of our defensive snaps which is very high. He played more snaps per game and per capita than any nose tackle, and more per game than guys like Haloti Ngata and Jay Ratliff who are the guys he'll be compared to in his new role.

We knew we weren't getting a 90% snap guy when we signed him. He's actually playing more for us now than he did at TN.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

I'm about to head out the door, so I can't look up the article (maybe someone can find it for me) but I read in a news article that Haynesworth played something like 10% more of the downs while he was with us than he ever did with Tennessee.

If this is true, then his conditioning should be (not excused) but understood and given some of a pass. We hired a guy who played somewhere in the 60s in terms of percent of plays, and asked him to play closer to 75% of them.

More on topic, I think Haynesworth was a huge success. People seem to have quickly forgotten the 06 and 08 seasons when we set records for sack ineptitude.

You're not wrong, you remember correctly.

I believe with the Titans he usually played about 62-66% of the snaps every season. That was a major criticism, that we were signing a guy that would only play 2/3 of every down.

With us, I believe he played about 72% of the total downs, which was a career high.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Adding to what I posted, Jay Ratliff on Dallas puts up very good numbers for being a NT and still does his job, I have no reason to believe Big Al cannot do the same, if we decide to use him in that sense.

Dallas also makes sure to put Ratliff in the best possible positions. They use him very well. They will try to isolate him on one lineman, they won't necessarily have him lined up over the Center on every play. They want him to disrupt, while they want their DE to perform the stereotypical DT role, eat blockers, prevent a push, and push the pocket on passes.

Ratliff is a bit undersized, he's able to make up for that with great agility. But Dallas uses an unconventional method for their 3-4. It's not like the Steelers, Dolphins, Patriots, or Ravens 3-4.

[Going Commando]

Ngata prolonged Ray Lewis's career. It's thought that Chicago needs an NT very badly to help prolong Brian Urlacher's career.

If we get a stud NT, Fletcher will be able to do his thing for awhile longer.

Ngata plays a different role than Vince Wilfork. He's a 1 gap player and spends a lot of time at 3 and 5 technique in their three man front. As such, most games he actually qualifies as a "DLT" or also a 3-4 DE since he takes most of his snaps there. Kelly Gregg is their more traditional "DRT" or 1 technique or he'll line head up at the Nose. That was the Ravens' plan for his use when they drafted him--not to have him play NT, which he only really did in 2008 because Gregg got injured.

[KDawg]

I don't agree with this. He missed three games with injury but I don't know if that's a conditioning issue. Otherwise he played over 70% of our defensive snaps which is very high. He played more snaps per game and per capita than any nose tackle, and more per game than guys like Haloti Ngata and Jay Ratliff who are the guys he'll be compared to in his new role.

We knew we weren't getting a 90% snap guy when we signed him. He's actually playing more for us now than he did at TN.

I realize he played more stats for us than he did the Titans. I said so in an earlier post.

That doesn't change the fact that he wasn't conditioned very well. His constant penchent for being "hurt" is conditioning. I'm not necessarily JUST talking about stamina. Conditioning encompasses a much bigger picture than just that.

How many times did he have to get practically rolled off the field and five minutes later he was okay? That's conditioning, one way or the other.

[Pedro]

What constitutes inside DL play was demonstrated to us by Joe and Cornelius when they were playing well. Can't run through or past them and the backfield is disrupted so the QB can't step up. We had Carter coming off one end getting sacks and Daniels on the other extending that can't run through or past them line. That meant Washington was often able to focus on the pass rush.

When they weren't the QB just had to step up and Carter was pushed wide, the RB could run through the middle repeatedly.

The thread moves on to Haynesworth and IMO he was worth the contract. Needs to get in better shape as stated many times. Other than that can't knock his attitude or production at all. We need to make him a focus of our game planning, move him around etc to create confusion. We really need to get a good NT so Haynesworth can be lined up wherever gives us the best matchups. The force multiplier that Haynesworth has been for our team re: QB pressure (from a 4 DL rush at times!!!"!111!!!1) and goal line stands will be what a good NT will do for Haynesworth.

After some of our recent piss poor DL play I'm really enjoying watching what we have now. Now we just need to draft Suh for the other DE spot and grab a NT to split time with Montgomery.....

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I think the conditioning gets used by some to mean BOTH his stamina on the field and his ability to resist injury.

As far as I'm concerned:

I don't have a problem with his stamina. We signed a guy that played 60-65% of the snaps and asked him to play 70-75% of them. As far as I'm concerned, no **** he's going to be winded and sucking air. I don't think that's him "getting out of shape" but us "demanding more shape" from him.

In addition, I don't care how many times his hands are on his hips on the sidelines if he's making plays when he's on the field. If he's stepping on field ten percent more than he was previously AND still being disruptive instead of being taken out of the game, then I think his stamina is just fine. News flash, when you go 100% on the field you're going to suck air off of it.

As for the injuries, that's different. It's clear that he has a lot of weight for his knees and his ankles, but some of that comes with the territory. DTs are never going to be Brett Favre like players who can span three decades with their play and go well into their forties.

Haynesworth faces the conundrum: if he drops the weight to ease his body and lengthen his career and his life he will most likely also drop production (at least if he drops beyond a certain point). If he keeps the weight on, he'll be more of a factor in the game but will probably be guaranteed to miss a game or two per season. Simply put, I don't think the shelf life on players that size can ever be 14+ years. How many years did guys like Warren Sapp play?

I also feel that Haynesworth wants to win, and wants to win bad. I don't see him as "too lazy to change." I think that if a coach thought that he would be better served 30 pounds lighter that Al would work to get there. I just don't think that Al would be all that better served at 30 pounds lighter.

It's like Gibbs and Portis. He could have had a longer career with a change of pace back or if we'd kept him as a speed guy, but it didn't fit what we needed. We got the most production for our money by bulking Portis up and making him run between the tackles. Same with Al. We could tack on two years to his career at a healthier, lighter weight; OR we could work him until his body breaks at maximum production and then find a replacement.

What's more useful tot he chargers...10 good years of LT or 7 great years of LT? It's more efficient to run someone into the ground and find a new guy when they break.

[Ryman of the North]

There are different things you look at when you check on a Dt.

if hes a disrupter you look at his jump off the snap, you look at how well he disengages from blocks and how he beats the double team, you watch his pursuit and his hand usage to beat blocks quickly. teamwise and statwise he should have a LOT of TFL and pressures and he should pretty much demand that a team either doubles him at the line or has to keep a man in the backfield to help.

If hes a masher you look for how stout he is at the POA, if he holds the line of scrimmage and how well he moves the LOS. statswise you look more at team stuff, does he prevent linemen from getting to the second level? does he keep the lbs clean? Does he stay in his lanes? This player HAS to be blocked with at least 2 guys. He may not make a huge number of tackles but he will make offences acct for him.

Its tough to evaluate them on their own, A great DT literally makes a defence great you will not find ONE of the top ten defences of all time that didnt have at least one stellar DT.

DT makes a massive difference, Its only semipro I know, but I play on a team called the Wolfpack here in canada, previous to my arrival they were known as a high scoring team who had a defence that made big plays but couldnt stop the run consistently, they had all stars at almost every other spot on D but had to rely on big plays because good running teams would pound the ball on them. since my arrival we have ranked 1 or 2 every year against the run and maintained the rest of our D winning 3 national championships. I am not anywhere near as athletic as I was a few years ago when I was a disruptive type player and was putting up huge numbers, I now get by more on savvy and size and quickness off the snap and less on speed and agility. My point is you can have guys who are succsessful at both, but having a guy in the middle who cannot be blocked one on one means our Lbs can make plays untouched. LOL meanwhile the team I left still hasnt been able to replace me and went from #1 in the league on defence overall to at best #3 and they have never finished higher than 3rd against the run and even that was due more to a poor year in our league rushing.

[Going Commando]

if hes a disrupter you look at his jump off the snap, you look at how well he disengages from blocks and how he beats the double team, you watch his pursuit and his hand usage to beat blocks quickly. teamwise and statwise he should have a LOT of TFL and pressures and he should pretty much demand that a team either doubles him at the line or has to keep a man in the backfield to help.

Another thing that gets a bit overlooked when you evaluate a defensive lineman who's relied upon to make plays themselves is their ability to locate the ball in the backfield. I'm always surprised at how something that seems so simple can dog an athletic college lineman and basically assures they never make plays. Being athletic enough to redirect well is part of it, but being heads up is something that some guys seem to have and others don't. One thing that impresses me with Haynesworth is his backfield awareness. When he gets an opening, he gets to the ball. If he had someone beside him that could take some of his double teams, I bet he could put up pretty big tackle numbers.

I am not anywhere near as athletic as I was a few years ago when I was a disruptive type player and was putting up huge numbers, I now get by more on savvy and size and quickness off the snap and less on speed and agility.

I think this is a good point to make about Haynesworth too. Right now, he's in his physical prime and can win matchups on his size and speed alone. As he gets older, I think he'll need to move into the Ted Washington/Pat Williams type of role on defense to continue playing. Guys whose game is built around power and smart gap control seem to last forever. As big and long and strong as Albert is, I think he could adjust to being a plugger pretty well, and as long as you paired him with a penetrator, you could have a productive front. That's getting a bit ahead of ourselves since he's got a few more seasons of peak production. I just wanted to throw this out there since there is a persistent idea that Haynesworth will burn out before we get to the point of contention. I think we'll be able to fine a role for Haynesworth for a long time coming.

I like him as a 5 technique largely because of his arms and height, and when he gets to the point where he can no loner be Haloti Ngata, I think we can use him like Marcus Spears. Look how long Philip Daniels has lasted and he's had some serious injuries.