If Zorn is gone after the season, does our playbook go to?

[HRNY4ZRNY]

I know this is a touchy subject. Jason Campbell has a ton of haters and supporters. I am still undecided. Jason has shown me alot this year. He has shown me he can't engineer a game winning drive and he has shown me he still has a heart.

Here is my line of thinking...

Zorn said from day 1, it takes 3 years for a QB to grasp and flourish in his offense. Why would we abandon this theory 2 years in?

For the record, I like JC (as a person). As a player I am torn. He is better than alot of QB's in the league. He is inacurrate at times and does not have a fire on the football field.

Many people think Zorn is dead man walking. Zorn has struck me as a nice guy. He does not seem to have great game management skills. Zorn also does seem like he doesn't inspire his offense. I think the players like him because he is a likeable guy. If this was my team I would be scared to keep him as HC.

My question is simple. If Campbell is retained and Zorn is fired, could we still keep the playbook? The only reason I want to keep his playbook is because Jason has been doing better and our receivers have been doing better.

How would you all feel about demoting Zorn to something. I dont want him to be the offensive coordinator because he seems to be passive and not cater his offense to their skills.

I look at the QB class coming out of college. No one strikes me as a great franchise QB. If our FO (whoever it is) drafts a qb than our 1st round pick will not be a LT (Okung) and will suffer anyways. I really feel we need to retain Campbell for atleast this next year. We should try to look for a QB next year.

So my question is simple. Do you really want a new playbook so our offense starts all over? Would you like to see JC in his 3rd year (which Zorn says is how long it takes). Is their anyway we can dump Zorn and keep his playbook.

I put alot of thought in this thread. If the mod's feel like it is unworthy, I am fine with them dumping it. Please no NNT's, I like having the the right to make new threads.

I love this team. Rebuilding is a must. I just hope they make the right choices and Im scared they won't. What is everyone's thoughts?

[jrfriedm]

Zorn is gone. Zorn's playbook is gone. Campbell is gone.

Thank you,

[HRNY4ZRNY]

Zorn is gone. Zorn's playbook is gone. Campbell is gone.

Thank you,

Maybe you are right. In that case I hope we find a great QB. I also hope our receivers (Kelly and Thomas) don't take another 3 years to grasp the playbook. Cause it seems the finally have!

[zCommander]

I think more important question is what are you going to do for the mods to have your username changed. :evilg:

If Vinny goes then goes Zorn and his playbook.

[HRNY4ZRNY]

I think more important question is what are you going to do for the mods to have your username changed. :evilg:

If Vinny goes then goes Zorn and his playbook.

HA, I thought about that... I was thinking I will either stick with it as a funny joke or make it NotHrny4Zrny...

My point is simple though... If a new HC comes in and says it takes time for this team to rebuild. Say we go 4-12 next season... Is everyone gonna be calling for his head to. Zorn said it takes 3 YEARS... It has been 2 and JC is starting to improve. Why pull the plug on the season that he has said will be the year!

My fear is that we didn't have the patience to go 1 more year. He said 3 years, he is wrong about a ton of thing. What if he is right on this one thing!

I really would appreciate a honest analysis of my post.

Not this is stupid Zorn is gone and JC.

Could Zorn be humble and be demoted to a position and still get a great paycheck?

[aussieskin]

I would like the skins to go back to "Smashmouth" football, it is what we do best and the west coast scheme seems to be complicated and for some reason unworkable in DC, but as to the question asked the obvious answer is yes, as i would envisage that we will have a new HC and therefore a new playbook, along with a GM who is a GM not a tarot card reader, an new QB whos brain is capable of working at a faster speed and who can read and make adjustments and who can run the ball himself when required. An Offensive Line that can stop the blitz,

[zCommander]

HA, I thought about that... I was thinking I will either stick with it as a funny joke or make it NotHrny4Zrny...

My point is simple though... If a new HC comes in and says it takes time for this team to rebuild. Say we go 4-12 next season... Is everyone gonna be calling for his head to. Zorn said it takes 3 YEARS... It has been 2 and JC is starting to improve. Why pull the plug on the season that he has said will be the year!

My fear is that we didn't have the patience to go 1 more year. He said 3 years, he is wrong about a ton of thing. What if he is right on this one thing!

I really would appreciate a honest analysis of my post.

Not this is stupid Zorn is gone and JC.

Could Zorn be humble and be demoted to a position and still get a great paycheck?

Personally I would rather have Vinny and Zorn stay. But Zorn should bench JC and put in Colt while we get better at the o-line. This way we get to see what Colt has and if we need to draft a QB in 2011.

[HRNY4ZRNY]

Personally I would rather have Vinny and Zorn stay. But Zorn should bench JC and put in Colt while we get better at the o-line. This way we get to see what Colt has and if we need to draft a QB in 2011.

Right that is my point. If Brennan is our QB for next season would you want him to have to learn a new playbook. That will set him back.

I would hope a new GM makes the right moves and puts us in a stable situation. I would love to give Colt a chance. If he sucks then we draft a QB next year. Atleast we build a solid O Line next year.

[hail2skins]

I guess the question is: if a new coach is hired, should he (and/or the OC) alter their preferred offensive scheme to fit the personnel, or should they find the right personnel (or adapr current personnel) to their preferred scheme.

Somehow I think the latter is the most likely to happen. Sorry Jim, in today's NFL, players don't get the luxury of a full three years to grasp the offense.

Bottom line is this whole team appeared not to be prepared for the start of this season. For that, Zorn deserves to be fired, and hopefully a good number of players currently on this team follow him out the door. And if we're going to make fresh starts in a number of areas, why not at QB as well?

[HRNY4ZRNY]

I guess the question is: if a new coach is hired, should he (and/or the OC) alter their preferred offensive scheme to fit the personnel, or should they find the right personnel (or adapr current personnel) to their preferred scheme.

Somehow I think the latter is the most likely to happen. Sorry Jim, in today's NFL, players don't get the luxury of a full three years to grasp the offense.

Bottom line is this whole team appeared not to be prepared for the start of this season. For that, Zorn deserves to be fired, and hopefully a good number of players currently on this team follow him out the door. And if we're going to make fresh starts in a number of areas, why not at QB as well?

OK I can't disagree with this. The only problem is Jim Zorn was doomed from the beginning. If I applied for a job and said it would take three years to get my staff running properly. The owner still hired me knowing my plan, then it is the owners fault for not waiting 3 years.

If Jim Zorn told them I would fix it on the spot, I could see why they would be pissed. He said 3 years, and we are all suprised Campbell hasn't gotten it yet?

Imagine your job you are in right now. You are told you have to make a quota. You are honest and say It will take 12 months... Then at the 8th month the owner says you have not reached your objective.

What would you say? WTF!! I said 12 months from day 1!

Im not saying I want Zorn to be HC but Snyder/Cerrato hired him when he said 3 years!

[hail2skins]

IMO, Zorn probably had a decent shot of surviving for a third year even if the Skins had an 8-8/9-7 finish, provided that on the way to that record the team was in the hunt for a playoff berth late in the season.

But the early-season performance of this team against the league's bottom feeders is not going to have a lot of folks sympathetic to Zorn's cause.

And even in year two of Zorn's "three-year" program, I sure would've expected more than we got from the offense against the Rams, Lions, Panthers, and Chiefs.

[polywog999]

The playbook will serve the new coach well...as a doorstop.

[mistertim]

Personally I would rather have Vinny and Zorn stay. But Zorn should bench JC and put in Colt while we get better at the o-line. This way we get to see what Colt has and if we need to draft a QB in 2011.

I'd like to see Vinny gone, but I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with Zorn staying. As far as JC goes, in that situation I'd sign him to a modest contract while we rebuild the OL. If Colt outplays him in training camp and shines against first stringers in pre-season, then play him. But I wouldn't just throw him in there "because he isn't Campbell". If you want an "open competition" (as in the coach declaring it publicly), fine with me. But if the end result is "Jason is still our starter" would you even accept it or just say Zorn has no clue what he is doing?

[rlkmwyatt]

Zorn said from day 1, it takes 3 years for a QB to grasp and flourish in his offense. Why would we abandon this theory 2 years in?

For the record, I like JC (as a person). As a player I am torn. He is better than alot of QB's in the league. He is inacurrate at times and does not have a fire on the football field.

Many people think Zorn is dead man walking. Zorn has struck me as a nice guy. He does not seem to have great game management skills. Zorn also does seem like he doesn't inspire his offense. I think the players like him because he is a likeable guy. If this was my team I would be scared to keep him as HC.

My question is simple. If Campbell is retained and Zorn is fired, could we still keep the playbook? The only reason I want to keep his playbook is because Jason has been doing better and our receivers have been doing better.

How would you all feel about demoting Zorn to something. I dont want him to be the offensive coordinator because he seems to be passive and not cater his offense to their skills.

I look at the QB class coming out of college. No one strikes me as a great franchise QB. If our FO (whoever it is) drafts a qb than our 1st round pick will not be a LT (Okung) and will suffer anyways. I really feel we need to retain Campbell for atleast this next year. We should try to look for a QB next year.

So my question is simple. Do you really want a new playbook so our offense starts all over? Would you like to see JC in his 3rd year (which Zorn says is how long it takes). Is their anyway we can dump Zorn and keep his playbook.

I put alot of thought in this thread. If the mod's feel like it is unworthy, I am fine with them dumping it. Please no NNT's, I like having the the right to make new threads.

I love this team. Rebuilding is a must. I just hope they make the right choices and Im scared they won't. What is everyone's thoughts?

If Campbell is retain then the team is still going backwards. He has the skills to make all the plays at the pro level but he cannot mentally get there. One thing I seem to repeatedly see on teh sideline is Campbell sitting by himself. His teammates do not even speak with him. A leader would be in their face when they mess up and give high fives when they do well. I canot remember a single time when this has happened.

Even Joe Theisman showed plays where Campbell does not make quick reads on the NFL Network and he thinks Campbell is good??????

I really do believe the rebuilding process is accelerated with a QB who can play at teh pro level. Yes we have Colt Brennan but there will be many vets available that we can get next season at a good pay. (Chad Pennington and now maybe even Kerry Collins from Tenn just to start)

As for a new playbook?? I just think Zorn needs to quit calling plays, even if Sherman Lewis walks during the game. For some reason Zorn is not a play caller and that I do not understand?

As for drafting I hope they look at OL and RB. The line is not as bad as it seems and CP is getting long in the tooth. He is getting dinged easier every season. After that they can look for another Safety and then go for depth.

GO SKINS:helmet:

[pocampo]

I'd like to see Vinny gone, but I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with Zorn staying. As far as JC goes, in that situation I'd sign him to a modest contract while we rebuild the OL. If Colt outplays him in training camp and shines against first stringers in pre-season, then play him. But I wouldn't just throw him in there "because he isn't Campbell". If you want an "open competition" (as in the coach declaring it publicly), fine with me. But if the end result is "Jason is still our starter" would you even accept it or just say Zorn has no clue what he is doing?

I would accept it for sure. But it has to be fair, Jason has a 4 year spot and as shown he can take a hit, there is no way Colt can take that beating. So if you would give Colt the same reps and the same attention that JC as had it would be fair. In training camp this year it was cold turkey for Colt. 10 reps per practice and then being thrown to the wolfs is not a real comp. A lot of guys on the team say Colt has what it takes. This year Colt looked like he was never comfortable in this offense, But he never had the luxury of playing with Moss or the first string line. Give him a fair chance and if he sucks we would all know it. Its funny if Colt does bad in preseason he sucks. But if he does good he was playing against third stringers. A no win situation. My question to you if Colt shows more potential then JC would you accept it or just blame the coach ?

[mistertim]

I would accept it for sure. But it has to be fair, Jason has a 4 year spot and as shown he can take a hit, there is no way Colt can take that beating. So if you would give Colt the same reps and the same attention that JC as had it would be fair. In training camp this year it was cold turkey for Colt. 10 reps per practice and then being thrown to the wolfs is not a real comp. A lot of guys on the team say Colt has what it takes. This year Colt looked like he was never comfortable in this offense, But he never had the luxury of playing with Moss or the first string line. Give him a fair chance and if he sucks we would all know it. Its funny if Colt does bad in preseason he sucks. But if he does good he was playing against third stringers. A no win situation. My question to you if Colt shows more potential then JC would you accept it or just blame the coach ?

Not sure what you mean exactly when you're giving your definition of fair. Do you mean let Colt start some games no matter what? QB decisions are rarely made that way unless the one originally named the starter is just playing downright dreadful (Derek Anderson this year, for example) during the season. QB competitions generally happen during training camp and through preseason and practice. That is how the coaches evaluate them. I realize that other positions you can just throw another guy in there, but QB is not the same way. If the coaching staff genuinely thinks Colt outplays Campbell in camp, practice, etc then I would have no problem at all with them starting him. But the musical chairs QB thing is just going to strain the offense even worse since the guy who you name as your starter needs the reps to prepare for games and the QB and others on the offense need to have some sort of chemistry together.

[RandyHolt]

If it takes 3 years to develop a QB, we should have just brought in a WCQB and saved ourselves what will more likely be 4 or 5 years. Why cant an OC have a simplified year one playbook? Rest assured whomever we bring in here will dump a complex playbook in its entirty on whomever our QB is. And rest assured our QB will have no experience in that system.

But we love continuity. I think that means there is an increased chance we keep the playbook. More than Jason learning it, I think we are starting to see our tall WR's helping out ARE and Moss, rather one dimensional WR's that Jason has had to live with.

[pocampo]

Not sure what you mean exactly when you're giving your definition of fair. Do you mean let Colt start some games no matter what? QB decisions are rarely made that way unless the one originally named the starter is just playing downright dreadful (Derek Anderson this year, for example) during the season. QB competitions generally happen during training camp and through preseason and practice. That is how the coaches evaluate them. I realize that other positions you can just throw another guy in there, but QB is not the same way. If the coaching staff genuinely thinks Colt outplays Campbell in camp, practice, etc then I would have no problem at all with them starting him. But the musical chairs QB thing is just going to strain the offense even worse since the guy who you name as your starter needs the reps to prepare for games and the QB and others on the offense need to have some sort of chemistry together.

I just mean in training camp Colt was never given the time to get the chemistry of the guys on the offense. I was just making the point a real comp for QB in training camp the QBs as to be given the same reps and attention. I agree with every thing else you said. To the OP I for one am not sure if I want this play book I just think we need more of a vertical game. to me it seems there is a generation gap between the NFL now and when JZ played the game. I think if JZ was a doctor he would be fired for malpractice.

[Garfield]

How many different 3-year plans have we abandoned after year two?

[Garfield]

we love continuity.

What the hell are you talking about?

If you count using continuity as a buzzword after Gibbs retired and then switching to an entirely different philosophy, then yes.

[addicted]

I sure hope so, the playbook sucks

[addicted]

How many different 3-year plans have we abandoned after year two?

Not enough

[mhearn]

what was his contract that he signed with us? 3 or 4 years? I think honestly most people should be given a chance going into the 3rd year but like someone else said....what has he done?! The offense was terrrrrrible against mediocre defenses this year early on. The team hasn't performed at even a competitive level except on defense. If we were showing flashes of lets say last year when we were 6-2 but now sure...let him have a year. This is just unacceptable.

[mistertim]

I just mean in training camp Colt was never given the time to get the chemistry of the guys on the offense. I was just making the point a real comp for QB in training camp the QBs as to be given the same reps and attention. I agree with every thing else you said. To the OP I for one am not sure if I want this play book I just think we need more of a vertical game. to me it seems there is a generation gap between the NFL now and when JZ played the game. I think if JZ was a doctor he would be fired for malpractice.

Ok, gotcha. I agree with that and that is absolutely fine by me.

[wildbill1952]

The answer to one of your questions, "Can Zorn just be demoted and do something else" is a plain and simple no. I like Zorn, but no new HC would want the HC who preceded him around in any capacity. Even if he liked Zorn, it's too painful for the former HC and too awkward for the new HC, especially if there is any dfference in opinion to what should be run, who should play, and even basic team philosophy. It would cause problems for the players, who, like it or not, would have divided loyalties. Just would not work.

Strangely enough, as much as I dislike Vinny, the same is not true for him. It's very easy to give Vinny a promotion and a raise and put him somewhere else in the organization without GM or other football responsibility and bring in a real GM without undercutting the new GM's authority. It's not going to happen, but it is a workable solution.

As far as JC's status, I'd say to leave it to the new head coach and management and not ES. We already know Snyder wanted JC replaced by Cutler last year, so I assume they plan to replace JC at the end of the season. If they choose to hold onto him or let him go, it's their decsion. There'll be wailing and gnashing of teeth no matter what happens.