A Question about Blache and the Defense

[Soup]

I think we will see the 5-2 defense roll out on a lot of plays during the year. The way blache decided to turn BOTH Wilson and Orakpo to DE/LBs might indicate the redskins trying out the 5-2 defense. i've even heard some say they can run a 3-4 defense.

Maybe blache is going for versatility and he just uses the preseason to find out how each player will perform under certain plays. I don't know what he's planning on doing.

[JaxJoe]

You make a good point, but i think thats a different arguement.

A good offense can aid a defense in several ways.

I guess you're saying that given the offense you think Blache's schemes's get the max production i.e. sacks and turnovers from the given talent?

Yes. And that's how I voted on the poll. A little more points with our offense and opponents offenses have to 'risk' longer passes (more time to develop) and, hopefully, more sacks. Plus, a less tired defense also helps in the 4th.

[DaGhost]

Yes. And that's how I voted on the poll. A little more points with our offense and opponents offenses have to 'risk' longer passes (more time to develop) and, hopefully, more sacks. Plus, a less tired defense also helps in the 4th.

i really think it all hinges on how much time we give JC in the pocket... if this line performs our team is going to put their opponents in compromising positions

[darrelgreenie]

Against the Pats, we brought Landry up so that he was about 10 yards off the LoS, and the Pats sent Randy Moss deep into the endzone and he burned us. The one time we brought Landry up, the other team knew what to do and we paid for it.

I believe Landry was closer to his normal position then you remember.

Its the last play in the clip below:

Patriots 3rd Drive http://www.sendspace.com/file/cve6n4 Size: 4MB

I think Landry got beat because the Pats new exactly what coverage to expect and had the time to execute a pump with a double move route designed to beat that coverage.

They went after the Cover 1 scheme as much as Landry who bit hard on the Moss 1st move then they Brady went up top.

However, because the corners play off coverage a lot of plays, the short passes are always there. I think the corners, even if they don't play press coverage, should probably move up to maybe a 5 yard cushion at least.

When we're playing Cover 3 zone the corners must protect a deep 1/3 and not many corners are going to be able to press and cover deep 1/3 maybe Asmougha.

When were playing Cover 1 i think that Rogers should press because he showed last year that he's good at it.

I think Hall could be a good press corner but i don't know.

As for blitzing, I don't see why we do. We are simply not effective at it.

When our LB's/S's blitz, it seems like once they get to the LoS, they just get caught up in the trenches with the lineman and it hardly pressures the QB extra. It's like all it does is take away players that should be back covering, because there isn't any extra pressure on the QB. Just seems to hurt our D more than help.

I think if the blitzes were more creative they would be more effective.

I think today's QB is too good to get beat on regular undisguised blitz package.

And because Blache doesn't use zone-blitz or line stunts often he doesn't create the requiste confusion in the OL and QB decision making to cause the hesitation that creates effective blitzes.

I almost think we would be better off not blitz and taking options away in the passing game.

Tieing back to when we're in Cover 3 and the corners are playing off, instead of blitzing our linebackers so much with little effect maybe we would be better served if a LB could take away the slant pass by occupying the passing window needed to complete the slant?

[JaxJoe]

Also, look at the poll questions. Of course I believe the team can improve. Who can't or who shouldn't? But where? 4th in yards allowed and 6th in points? Lead the league in 3 & outs! That's pretty impressive.

So I feel that Blache & company have done an admirable job with the given defensive talent which should only improve this year with the new acquisitions. But it's the offensive's misgivings that, I believe, are making Blache look like he's underperforming. Barring injury, and an improved offense (???) Blache is going to look really good this year. It's Blache that we may end up loosing to HC another team. He has a pretty steady track record; consistent stats at Chicago. Just a major lack of sacks and turnovers (also during his tenure in chicago). Turnovers are emphasized because our last years offense needs better field position. Or, defensive scoring to, again, aid our offensives misgivings. But the bottom line is, he puts his team in a position to win, if only said team can put up enough points.

HTTR.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2009/09/05/redskins-blache-also-under-pressure-to-perform

[JaxJoe]

i really think it all hinges on how much time we give JC in the pocket... if this line performs our team is going to put their opponents in compromising positions

Well said

[bluecrab]

my only complaint is that they stick landry so far back, its impossible for him to regularly make big plays.

i say this as a huge landry fan, who has his authetic jersey... i want to see him make bigger plays, i didn't spend 300$ on a shirt for nothing

Not just Landry, look at the corners. They are always giving the receivers a 10 to 15 yard cushion, even in the Red Zone.

I'm assuming this is done to not give up the "Big Play" but with a cushion like that, they just nickel and dime you with the underneath slants, etc.

[darrelgreenie]

Thank you for your posts and welcome to the board.

Also, look at the poll questions. Of course I believe the team can improve. Who can't or who shouldn't?

The poll question is: Does Blache maximize the defensive personnel?

Its a specific question regarding the production from the defense.

But where? 4th in yards allowed and 6th in points? Lead the league in 3 & outs! That's pretty impressive.

Improvement in 2 key areas of defense production: Sacks and Turnovers (Ints especially)

Watch this clip from NFL.com that was in the OP:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos...Under-pressure

Don't you think the D would be more productive if Blache's scheme included some of those concepts?

He has a pretty steady track record; consistent stats at Chicago. Just a major lack of sacks and turnovers (also during his tenure in chicago). Turnovers are emphasized because our last years offense needs better field position. Or, defensive scoring to, again, aid our offensives misgivings. But the bottom line is, he puts his team in a position to win, if only said team can put up enough points.

You're making my point for me.

Blache defense are good but to become an elite defense you need to get sacks and turnovers.

Blache's defense put the team in postion to win, but the flip side is that other defenses actually WIN the games for the team.

It's Blache that we may end up loosing to HC another team.

I doubt that. Even the article you linked suggests that Blache could be gone next year and i don't think they meant as a HC.

Redskins' Blache also under pressure to perform

The new weapons should help, but this also increases the pressure on Blache. Surely, if Campbell and Zorn fail, they both will be gone after next season, most believe, and Blache clearly would follow them out the door.

[NavyDave]

That was preseason. Having Orakpo pass rushing from the OLB and not facing the mammoth NFC east linemen for 3 plays at his current size is a good move. I am curious to see a pass rush featuring Orakpo, Jarmon, Carter, Haynesworth,etc.

If we can get pressure and sacks rushing 5 (Orakpo coming from the linebacker spot) our defense will be sick.

I do hate the kitchen sink blitzing where somehow everyone is picked up and the WR breaks off his route and consistently makes the crucial catch. The play should be scrapped.

[darrelgreenie]

I think we will see the 5-2 defense roll out on a lot of plays during the year. The way blache decided to turn BOTH Wilson and Orakpo to DE/LBs might indicate the redskins trying out the 5-2 defense. i've even heard some say they can run a 3-4 defense.

Maybe blache is going for versatility and he just uses the preseason to find out how each player will perform under certain plays. I don't know what he's planning on doing.

By 5-2 do you mean 4 down lineman with the SAM on the LOS either standing or with his hand in the dirt, creating in essemce a 5 man front?

If that is what you mean by 5-2 then i think you're talkng about the 4-3 under.

And i agree we will see this front more often this year.

There were some threads on this scheme during the offseason.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?p=6477238&highlight=4-3#post6477238

And i can't wait to see it.

If only we would zone-blitz too

[Xero21]

I believe Landry was closer to his normal position then you remember.

Its the last play in the clip below:

I think Landry got beat because the Pats new exactly what coverage to expect and had the time to execute a pump with a double move route designed to beat that coverage.

They went after the Cover 1 scheme as much as Landry who bit hard on the Moss 1st move then they Brady went up top.

If you watch the replay right afterwards, when it shows the camera angle looking right at our D (the backs of the Pats), you can see Landry (well half of him, the picture is cut off you can only see half his body.)

By comparison, he is playing about as close to the LoS as London Fletcher is. About 10 yards off.

When we're playing Cover 3 zone the corners must protect a deep 1/3 and not many corners are going to be able to press and cover deep 1/3 maybe Asmougha.

Yes, but I don't see the need to be past the first down marker before the ball is snapped. As I said, it doesn't have to be press, just move the corners up some.

And I do agree that Carlos Rogers ought to be in press coverage whenever we're in man.

And I also agree that we probably should just keep the LBs/Ss in coverage. Blitzing has been uneffective.

[JaxJoe]

You're welcome. After two years reading ES posts, this thread has been one of the most informative minus the haters.

I am in total agreement. Regarding my Blache's chances of an HC position was solely with respect to a much improved offense making him look better. Not because of any changes he'll make to the D. That's what I meant that it will be tough to improve from last year. But you're absolutely correct about the sacks and turnovers. My point was that those stats (with the existing Blache D philosophy) aren't as important if and only if our offense can score more. But with the last years' offense we REALLY needed better field position which comes from sacks & TOs. Thus improving the Os chances of scoring more. And I feel, our offense is going slightly better than last years. Who knows?

So therefore, I believe Blache must change course and at least try to sack the QB more and get TOs that way. easier than getting a RB fumble IMO. Or, force an errant pass to intercept. I can't figure out the safety blitzes on the end Blache calls. A good QB just throws a slant in that direction because there's no one underneath for the easy 3rd and long pick-up.

But I agree with everything you said. It'll just be hard to improve on last years stats unless Blache changes and/or mixes up his blitz packages.

[jtyler42]

But what happens when the scheme is executed correctly but the offense has the answer to that scheme?

I think this is what happens to our defense.

Blache shows an offense the same looks and eventually they'll figure it out.

The defense can work effectively for awhile but lack of variation in Blache's defensive game-calling limits its effectiveness.

It doesn't seem as if Blache has any zone-blitzing in his play book.

And he doesn't mix up coverages that often.

It seems for the most part defenses know what they're gonna get.

I agree with you on the elite talent issue.

I think this defense would be great if we had our corners could play press man. (But then again so would most defenses)

I'm just not sure we'll be much more effective running the same schemes.

Teams can still use the same concepts to beat the schemes.

You're right Blache doesn't do much zone blitzing he does more conventional blitzing, I do think however that he is going to mix that up a lot more this yr.

As far as teams knowing what we're doing on D...Blache's mindset is that he will scheme up 1 on 1's where the LB or DB that's blitzing gets a 1 on 1 with a RB or TE blocking him, Then in Blache's eyes the athlete has to beat his man and make the play. I don't think people would complain about his scheme or the simplicity of them if the players would actually win their 1 on 1 battles at least some of the time instead of rarely.

I agree with this post 100%...

I agree Landry's problem is he never comes out of the post, ST when he played that "Angel" FS position had 5 picks in less than half a season in 07'...Landry has got to study offenses and formations more so he can react quicker to plays and begin to make plays on the ball.

I've been saying the same thing for a looong time here...It's not the scheme. We probably have had the poorest group of blitzing LB's in the league for awhile. It's like they weren't blitzing to get to the QB, but that they were blitzing right into blocks, and once they were blocked they stayed blocked. I think with Orakpo, and Wilson in the fold at LB we will see LB blitzes that actually get to the QB...[

I get what you are saying ,but its just not that easy for LL..Sean just made it look Easy!!

Well it took ST21 3yr's to get good at that position. He was reckless, undisciplined, and you could tell didnt watch a lot of film his first 2 yrs. Landry is like a carbon copy of that, lets just hope he gets it together like ST did!

I remember from the Steelers game there was a stat that said Blache sent 5 or more rusher more then anyone in the league.

Somethings gotta be wrong if you blitz that much yet only finish with 22(?) sacks.

I agree that most of our LBs aren't the best 1-on-1 pass rushers, but Blache kept calling the same blitzes over and over again.

Blaches blitzes are gonna be more effective this year because Orakpo, who can lift up an OL with his strength, will rush instead of Washington and Blades.

Blache blitzes 5 and often doesn't get sacks a zone-blitz or line stunt/game often gets sacks without actually sending an extra man.

Zone blitzes/stunts attack the pass protection scheme itself not just the player, the split second of hesitation is often ebough for a pass rusher to gain the upper hand.

A good zone blitz often tricks 2 lineman into blocking the same person or tricks a lineman into not blocking anyone while another lineman is trying to block 2.

It forces the QB to hold the ball a little longer because the 'hot read' passing lane is occupied by a 300 lbs DT or 250 lbs LB.

Hence that general is skilful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skilful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack.

Sun Tzu

-JT did i miss anything in my breakdown of our D from the OP?

Nah you were spot on my friend! I agree that Blache needs to add more window dressing to the D, but I just don't think it's as critical to the success of this D or any D...Our players just have to make plays, Blache puts them in position, they just have to make the play.

[darrelgreenie]

You're right Blache doesn't do much zone blitzing he does more conventional blitzing, I do think however that he is going to mix that up a lot more this yr.

I'm hoping.

Blache's D is good don't get me wrong.

But i just don't see it becoming elite running the same schemes.

Even with Haynesworth and Orakpo i don't think our defense will be like the Ravens, Steelers or the Giants w/ Spagnulo.

As far as teams knowing what we're doing on D.....I don't think people would complain about his scheme or the simplicity of them if the players would actually win their 1 on 1 battles at least some of the time instead of rarely.

You're right i wouldn't complain if we got more sacks and TOs.

My problem is that running such a small numbers of plays on defense makes it easier for OCs to gameplan to beat the scheme.

Nah you were spot on my friend! ...Our players just have to make plays, Blache puts them in position, they just have to make the play.

Thanks, I hope that during the season the defensive breakdown will have more defenses to list.

I think that Haynesworth is going to win more then a fair share of his match-ups and make a bunch of plays for himself or other people along the DL.

And i think Orakpo is going to make Blache/Olivadotti look smart for moving him to SAM on 1st and 2nd downs.

*Dude lifted an OL off his feet!!!

....My point was that those stats (with the existing Blache D philosophy) aren't as important if and only if our offense can score more. But with the last years' offense we REALLY needed better field position which comes from sacks & TOs. Thus improving the Os chances of scoring more. And I feel, our offense is going slightly better than last years. Who knows? ........But I agree with everything you said. It'll just be hard to improve on last years stats unless Blache changes and/or mixes up his blitz packages.

I know the defense is going to be better.

I don't think we'll get the sacks and TOs that people are expecting.

But, if the offense steps up like you say,(i think they will) our defense will be good enough.

I just don't think we'll ever be as dominant as defenses like Ravens and Steelers.

[thewagen]

Blache does not disguise the blitz...he said as much last year...he wants to play mano-on-mano, line em up in front of the offense and go...so Qbs most often know the blitz is coming, and check to something else. At least GW disguised his blitzes well so you NEVER knew who was coming...

But this crapola of playing the DBs 10 yards off the receiver is terrible, especially whne the other offense is in short yardage 3rd downs. WHAT?!?!?!?

We BETTER have a pass rush or GBlache might as well keep his suitcases packed. The only thing that top 5 defense did for them last year was keep the games close, and it exposed the woeful offense...more turnovers will definitely result in more wins!

C'mon DEFENSE!!!!!

FS

[21forlyfe]

Blache does not disguise the blitz...he said as much last year...he wants to play mano-on-mano, line em up in front of the offense and go...so Qbs most often know the blitz is coming, and check to something else. At least GW disguised his blitzes well so you NEVER knew who was coming...

But this crapola of playing the DBs 10 yards off the receiver is terrible, especially whne the other offense is in short yardage 3rd downs. WHAT?!?!?!?

We BETTER have a pass rush or GBlache might as well keep his suitcases packed. The only thing that top 5 defense did for them last year was keep the games close, and it exposed the woeful offense...more turnovers will definitely result in more wins!

C'mon DEFENSE!!!!!

FS

I'am feeling that

[DELskins]

Can't answer that yet. More talent this year... Orakpo, Haynesworth and then Hall and Horton with a year under their belt in the Skins scheme. Let's see what he does with it.

[Hail Gibbs]

I think the D could be improved. My 2 gripes about the D are.

1) The amount of cushion the secondary often gives.

2) Playing Orakpo at SAM. It seemed apparent in preseason he was much better at DE, but then again I guess there is nobody else to play SAM at the moment besides Chris Wilson, another converted DE. I have to imagine OCs are going to try to expose our SLBs in coverage.

[21forlyfe]

I think the D could be improved. My 2 gripes about the D are.

1) The amount of cushion the secondary often gives.

2) Playing Orakpo at SAM. It seemed apparent in preseason he was much better at DE, but then again I guess there is nobody else to play SAM at the moment besides Chris Wilson, another converted DE. I have to imagine OCs are going to try to expose our SLBs in coverage.

Hail to that!

[SilkyDiamonds]

Why do I get the feeling Blache by coaching 2 DE's to stand up, is preparing to unleash hybrid defenses this season, especially on 3rd down.

1. He's got 2 huge ends Daniels/Wynn (the 3-4 kind)

2. A monster in the middle Haynesworth

3. 2 DE's who are now able to stand up

4. Fletcher and McIntosh who play better when the guys up front free them

5. Corners who can man up, a Freak at free safety, and above avg options at SS

This gives Blache the option to show an aggressive 3-4 look occasionally (dont know if they have worked on it all strictly conjecture), And still be able to run a stable sturdy 4-3 look. He may even be able to use the morphing look Rex Ryan likes to use where it changes from3-4 to 4-3 and back all in the time that the QB is calling his cadence.

I could be just dreaming being an overly optomistic homer, but it is certainly within the realm of possibility

[jtyler42]

Blache does not disguise the blitz...he said as much last year...he wants to play mano-on-mano, line em up in front of the offense and go...so Qbs most often know the blitz is coming, and check to something else. At least GW disguised his blitzes well so you NEVER knew who was coming...

But this crapola of playing the DBs 10 yards off the receiver is terrible, especially whne the other offense is in short yardage 3rd downs. WHAT?!?!?!?

We BETTER have a pass rush or GBlache might as well keep his suitcases packed. The only thing that top 5 defense did for them last year was keep the games close, and it exposed the woeful offense...more turnovers will definitely result in more wins!

C'mon DEFENSE!!!!!

FS

As far as how our DB's line up I really don't think they are told to play off in all situations, they play the technique that they are comfortable playing...Some DB's are very comfortable, and natural in press coverage, some are more comfortable being able to "clue" the WR/QB in the off technique and jump routes...Two examples of this would Ahsomougha in Oak is comfortable in press all game long, where as a player like Assante Samuel plays off and jumps a lot of routes b/c he has perfected the "clue" technique of off coverage. Putting it to our team Rogers is comfortable in press and can play it all game long, where as Hall, and Smoot aren't so they play off and attempt to jump routes...

Why do I get the feeling Blache by coaching 2 DE's to stand up, is preparing to unleash hybrid defenses this season, especially on 3rd down.

1. He's got 2 huge ends Daniels/Wynn (the 3-4 kind)

2. A monster in the middle Haynesworth

3. 2 DE's who are now able to stand up

4. Fletcher and McIntosh who play better when the guys up front free them

5. Corners who can man up, a Freak at free safety, and above avg options at SS

This gives Blache the option to show an aggressive 3-4 look occasionally (dont know if they have worked on it all strictly conjecture), And still be able to run a stable sturdy 4-3 look. He may even be able to use the morphing look Rex Ryan likes to use where it changes from3-4 to 4-3 and back all in the time that the QB is calling his cadence.

I could be just dreaming being an overly optomistic homer, but it is certainly within the realm of possibility

I see your new to ES! Welcome to the board!

Check this thread out and read it from the first to the last page, it is one of the best threads about this subject and goes into specifics and detail about this type of hybrid D! Also you can check the links in my sig...

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=289228&page=11

[Dirty#30]

Blache better find a way to get the QB on the ground alot more this year or he needs to go. He believes in the bend dont break BS.

This is his last year anyways. At least that's what I heard at the end of last season. They had to talk him into staying one more year.

[mbws]

Scheme aside, The Redskins' defense has lost more than one opportunity to force a punt by committing STUPID personal foul type penalties on third and long, keeping themselves on the field longer.

[theboomking]

Blache already seems to be running more stunts with Rak than I have ever seen him run before. Rak's hit on troy Smith came on a stunt. I think part of Blache's vanilla schemes has been vanilla D-line personnel.

That being said, Zorn and Wade Phillips are both on the bubble this year. I'd be curious what Wade could do as our DC. You would certainly see a lot more pressure. You might also see merriman come here to reunite with Wade.

[kevinklein]

my only complaint is that they stick landry so far back, its impossible for him to regularly make big plays.

i say this as a huge landry fan, who has his authetic jersey... i want to see him make bigger plays, i didn't spend 300$ on a shirt for nothing

I think Landry playing back has been great for our defense. Horton plays the run so well, and Landry has prevented the big play from happening so many times. It's really a pretty nice juxtaposition of safety play.