BRAVEONAWARPATH Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 He also spoke out against Civil Rights Acts and the MLK holiday and he had no problem with South Africa and apartheid until the pressure got too great on him. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney B Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Do you really think Obama, Pelosi and Reid hold a candle to the greatest thinkers civilization has ever seen? How did the founding fathers feel about slavery? Do you think they were wrong? There are more than 6X as many people alive today as there were in the late 1700's, which means 6X as many great thinkers - unless you're trying to make the claim that individual and collective human wisdom have somehow diminished in the last few centuries (in which case it'd be interesting to see you substantiate that claim with facts). And yet all other western democracies have somehow come to the conclusion that the societal benefits of universal healthcare outweigh whatever sacrifices - real and imagined - must be made to achieve them. Government-run health care will be used as a tool by government officials. As these programs always are. It will be used to punish political enemies, to reward friends, to entice supporters and -- always -- to aggregate more power. So you're saying that no government program has ever, on the balance, been a success? That'd represent a minority viewpoint, to say the least. It seems more accurate to say that most civilized societies have determined that the benefits justify the costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 How did the founding fathers feel about slavery? Do you think they were wrong? There are more than 6X as many people alive today as there were in the late 1700's, which means 6X as many great thinkers - unless you're trying to make the claim that individual and collective human wisdom have somehow diminished in the last few centuries (in which case it'd be interesting to see you substantiate that claim with facts). And yet all other western democracies have somehow come to the conclusion that the societal benefits of universal healthcare outweigh whatever sacrifices - real and imagined - must be made to achieve them. So you're saying that no government program has ever, on the balance, been a success? That'd represent a minority viewpoint, to say the least. It seems more accurate to say that most civilized societies have determined that the benefits justify the costs. The founders as well as the others mentioned had differing views on slavery. Me?...I think owning another human is inhuman,though I am a a fan of indentured servitude:) For your increased great thinkers question to matter you would need to show they support a public plan and govt control of it...as well as great thinkers simply being a inevitable result of greater numbers. both of which would be difficult:evilg: Just who are these great thinkers endorsing it? Government plans have certainly been a success..at being used to punish political enemies, to reward friends, to entice supporters and -- always -- to aggregate more power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney B Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 The founders as well as the others mentioned had differing views on slavery.. Yep, and they also had differing views on democracy, but you can discern their collective opinion by virtue of the consensus reflected in the Constitution. For your increased great thinkers question to matter you would need to show they support a public plan and govt control of it...as well as great thinkers simply being a inevitable result of greater numbers. Again: unless either human intelligence has deviated from the 200 year-old mean, OR standard deviations of intelligence have wavered; more people = more people of high intelligence. And the great thinkers of the world have already spoken: you can discern their collective opinion by virtue of the consensus reflected in the fact that all western democracies but one have universal healthcare. Unless you care to claim that the great thinkers presently on the planet are concentrated in the 'anti-anything Obama' camp (you yourself may be their only actual representative therein. :evilg:) Government plans have certainly been a success..at being used to punish political enemies, to reward friends, to entice supporters and -- always -- to aggregate more power. Right again, we should just abolish the G.I. Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 The consensus of the power of the individualist and fear of abuse of concentrated power?...A love of freedom?....isn't that the consensus? Chief ,you are assuming politicians listened to the great thinkers in history in choosing universal healthcare.(or slavery) Care to back it up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney B Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Chief ,you are assuming politicians listened to the great thinkers in history in choosing universal healthcare.(or slavery) Care to back it up? So the founding fathers are no longer the 'great thinkers in history'? My point is that societal standards evolve with all human knowledge, (including ethical philosophy) and particularly that UHC can coexist with democratic ideals just as well as any federal program can. The G.I. Bill is a fine example of a program that works, more than pays for itself, and no one disparages it in the name of Aristotle. I've worked for a small business which was handicapped internationally in part by burdensome healthcare costs, and I could therefore imagine UHC actually having a positive effect on our trade imbalance. I hope you can too, but I guess it doesn't matter in the long run. Even if UHC goes down in flames this time around, it's just a matter of time - if present trends continue - before we have so many people without insurance that the scales are bound to tip eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 It's amazing how many people equate freedom with your family being the insurance company's ****es Strap on the gimp suit, your freedoms are in jeopardy. Better to bend over and take it from you insurance without lube. And oh yah, when you get laid off, you're ****ed. Nevermind the lifesaving operation you need. You weren't economically viable any longer at your job. Makes sense. Keep pressing for freedom! ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney B Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 It's amazing how many people equate freedom with your family being the insurance company's ****esStrap on the gimp suit, your freedoms are in jeopardy. Better to bend over and take it from you insurance without lube. And oh yah, when you get laid off, you're ****ed. Nevermind the lifesaving operation you need. You weren't economically viable any longer at your job. Makes sense. Keep pressing for freedom! ..... Damn. Give me liberty and give me death! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Chief the GI bill only applies to the healthiest (in the beginning;)) subset of Americans and comes at a price most won't pay:) Zoony, the best way to declaw the ins monopoly is expanded HSA's and expanded access/deductibility for major medical plans under co-ops. Empower the individual consumers to get better care and regulate cost. Ins affordability and portability can be achieved w/o govt run UHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Lets name something else after Reagan. I agree The Reagan A great Thinker way back in the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 This is what I wonder -- how come those politicians who oppose health care reform aren't campaigning to dismantle Medicare? AARP large voting block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs Ronald Reagan was a New Deal Democrate in 1930's and 40's. He voted for Roosevelt. So why is his opinion in the 1960's more valid than his contradictory opinion in those years? Fact is different times call for different solutions. In the 60's universal coverage systems were untried and didn't have sucess stories to point too. Today every industrialized country on earth uses a universal coverage system... EVERY ONE. We are the only outlier, and our healthcare system is the most expensive and is falling in quality of care against the rest of the world too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 So the founding fathers are no longer the 'great thinkers in history'? . Actually our founding fathers were great borrowers from the great minds in history. Our government is loosely based upon the Roman Republic with it's "executive/emporor" and it's bicameral legislature "senate-congress/senate-plebicite" Which itself was loosely based upon Plato's Republic. Democracies don't offer enough protection to it's citizens from the terrany of the majority so let's elect officials to make all the decisions under a binding constitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Wow, I didn't know Reagan was alive again? Reagan has been dead for 5 years,get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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