Atlanta Skins Fan Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 This quote comes from "The Believer", a film about a Jewish man who becomes a neo-Nazi. The quote of course is a riff on If God didn't exist, man would have to invent Him.-- Voltaire, 1769 "The Believer" is one of the best films almost no one will ever see, because despite winning the 2001 jury prize at Sundance, it was shunned by the major theatrical distributors due to its controversial content. It's now out on DVD, and it's well worth the rental or purchase. The brilliance of the film is not the shock value of its Jewish protagonist becoming a neo-Nazi: that has already happened by the opening frames of the film. What's brilliant is the strange empathy the film reveals for its protagonist (Danny): the revelation that the heretic is in some ways the most devout of all -- the one who so demands the truth of God that he is willing to tear down even his own religion if it will provoke God to reveal himself by striking him down. A flashback from Danny's Hebrew school days crystalizes Danny's worldview. Discussing how God commanded Abraham to slaughter his own son Isaac, Danny calls that God "a power-drunk madman." Rebuked by his instructor, Danny stands defiant, raising his eyes toward the ceiling: "Let him crush me like the conceited bully that he is. Go ahead!" This brutal film refuses to condescend to Danny or the audience. A lesser film would hint at stupidity or childhood trauma as being the cause of Danny's anti-Semitism, but this film never cuts Danny down at the knees. In stream-of-consciousness rants, Danny gives voice to all the standard attacks, and then goes further. Danny believes that Judaism itself demands anti-Semitism in order to exist and to be strong. To Danny, Jewish identity is a Cartesian inversion: "They hate us, therefore we are." Worse, the inversion implies a suicidal tendency: "The more they hate us, the stronger we are." Despite attacking Jews and Judaism, Danny can't stop being Jewish. He might hate God and Jews for the absurdity of Jewish law and Jewish existence, but this does not change his profound conviction that Jewish scripture is holy. He recognizes that Jewish law is stupid and arbitrary, but that's the point: it's about obedience to God's will, not whether it's rational or you happen to like it. In Danny's case, he hates it -- hates the law, hates what the law has made Jews into being -- but he can't quite bring himself to disbelieve the law. Tortured by simultaneous hatred for and belief in Jewish law, Danny resolves the contradiction by becoming what he believes is the ultimate creation of Judaism: the Hitler figure, the necessary antagonist whose brutality tests and affirms Jewish faith in God. By embodying the force of hatred, Danny is able to take the fight to every Jew he meets, challenging that Jew and by extension his Jewish God. In the end, Danny stands like Robert DeNiro in "Taxi Driver", alone in his apartment before a mirror. Only, in this case, Danny is talking to God. From "Taxi Driver": I'm standin' here. You make the move. You make the move. It's your move. Don't try it, you f--ker. You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? Well, who the hell else are you talkin' to? You talkin' to me? Well, I'm the only one here. Who the f--k do you think you're talkin' to? Oh yeah? Huh? OK. Huh? ... Listen you f--kers, you screwheads. Here's a man who would not take it anymore. Who would not let...Listen you f--kers, you screwheads. Here's a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the c--ts, the dogs, the filth, the s--t, here is someone who stood up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Sigh. See the title of the thread then read the initial post. A movie review. The 2 don't mesh ASF. What are you trying to say, if anything? The title of the thread leads, key word there, leads one to see things in the post that maybe weren't intended. So. What up? (in othere words...you're asking for it here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blade Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 All religions have a healthy number of arbitrary laws that carry some degree of absurdidty. To make a statement that Jews are somehow responsible for the hate that they instill in people is in no way brilliant. Its a pathetic excuse for hating someone who is different than yourself, and then blaming them for the difference. You're forays into justification for anti-semitism and anti-israeli propaganda are starting to get under my skin ASF. Consider this a warning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 sounds interesting though Im not surprised it didnt come out to theatres I can see why it would be offensive to some Jewish people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 This is disgusting. This is getting out of control. Time to take a break ASF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 I'm not sure why people are geting so worked up over a movie review. This description reminds me a little of the first half of American History X, another amazing movie which didn't do to well due to the fact that an empathetic look at racism isn't really welcome. What made that movie great was that it took every traditional argument about racism and threw it out the window. There never was a sense of compassion driving the rejection of the beliefs. I respected that greatly. Sounds like an interesting movie well worth the watch. Thanks for the heads up ASF. -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 yeah, the thread title wasn't the best of choices... the movie however, was outstanding... if you get the dvd you can see behind the scenes stuff, "anatomy of a scene" (i love that show), etc.... the kid who played danny will be seen in many upcoming movies, he did a great job... and i love my ramsey pic-- thanks mods!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Agreed DB. I'll be looking for it at Blockbuster. Blade, I think a bit of leniency is in order here. Certainly the title was a bit on the titillating (sp) side. However, any good writer knows to choose a title that will capture the attention of the reader. As for the content of his review, it is his own interpretation of the filmakers message. As such, I think anyone on this board would understand to take it with a grain of salt. If anyone else, particularly any Jewish boardmembers, finds it offensive then I'll have to stand corrected. And yes, I would make the same argument if the ethnic group in question were my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phishhead Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Thanks for movie tip ASF, I'll be checking it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Gentleman. Might I point you to Blades post once again. Notice the term "forays". Plural. Blade, (nor the rest of the admins), do not give warnings arbitrarily nor, for the most part, based on just one post. By the time a warning is given, trust when I say leniency has already been provided. Kefka, smootylicious, FredSmootFan? come to mind. Titillating is one thing. this is beyond that. Especially when considering other "forays". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 I think every one is over reacting here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blondie Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 A person's view of a situation depends on where he/she is standing. From where I am standing: I rarely, if ever, reply to any of ASFs post, as I find many of them off the wall........and often times offensive. I have tried to be of the mind set that if his outrageousness is ignored, it will go away. Hasn't happened. The title of the thread was NOT the title of the movie. Titillating is not what I would call it. In my belief, it was meant to cause controversy. Had this been the 2nd or 3rd time this type of thread came from ASF, then maybe a person could just . But this has been continuous of late. If the movie is good...as is the opinion of a poster..then why not tell about it......and allow the other posters to choose to see it or ignore it. Stirring the pot gets old after a while. Blondie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsanity56 Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 gotta agree with blade/blondie & park on this one.the title of the thread even made me gasp a little as i entered the thread.i'll say this you got me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 I was thinking about writing a review of Matrix Reloaded. Since it ends with the city of Zion being threatened by those spider-thingies, I thought I'd title the thread "ALL Zionists Will Soon Be Wiped Out!" Anyone have a problem with that?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 gee...and thought Judas played that role originally........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Blondie nailed it, everyone should read her post. I am actually shocked at the lack of anger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 we've become conditioned...we're all "ASFian Dogs"!!!!!! my shaping theory is that ASF was abandoned as a child, raised by wolves but nurtured on the wrong "teat"....somewhere out there wandering the seven hills is the good brother....... come home boys...come home....mother America still loves you...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B&G Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 I've had ASF on ignore a while now for precisely this type of thing. Although I decline to read his garbage posts , I could not help but see the title of this thread and it is offensive in the extreme regardless of the context or ASF's intent. In my view, there should not be a place here for an individual who repeatedly spews hate, prejucide and/or discrimination. Political views are one thing but ASF's posts extend far beyond the acceptable in that forum. In my opinion, he should be denied the privilege of posting here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blade Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Originally posted by B&G I've had ASF on ignore a while now for precisely this type of thing. Although I decline to read his garbage posts , I could not help but see the title of this thread and it is offensive in the extreme regardless of the context or ASF's intent. In my view, there should not be a place here for an individual who repeatedly spews hate, prejucide and/or discrimination. Political views are one thing but ASF's posts extend far beyond the acceptable in that forum. In my opinion, he should be denied the privilege of posting here. For now, I have changed the headline of this post because I do find it offensive, and I do not think that extremeskins.com should have a thread-title like this bouncing around its front page. B&G, believe me when I tell you that this is a subject of intense debate among the staff. As PCS kindly pointed out for me, we do not drop the hammer without damn good reason, and repeated offenses. ASF got his warning, I hope that he heeds it because I sincerely enjoy reading his thoughts about the Redskins, even when I disagree with them. Wish I could say the same thing about his Tailgate junk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 When a poster loses touch with the tone of the board, and becomes either unable or unwilling to recognize and adjust to that fact and blissfully continues on, he or she runs the risk of having everything he or she says seen through a jaundiced eye. That's already happened here for most of us, I think, where ASF is concerned. And, if that individual chooses to continue routinely ignoring direct and indirect requests -- from both the membership at large and the administrators in specific -- to recognize the inflammatory nature of so much of what he or she says, and to voluntarily refrain from stoking the fire time after time after time, there will most assuredly come a time when a certain post simply "goes too far." Is it this one? Probably not. Or not yet, anyway. If this were someone's first post ever, we'd probably chide him or her about the tone a bit, and move on. And assume the message "took." But it has long since gone beyond being able to perceive a post from ASF through anything other than the pungent aroma of all that has come before it. It accumulates. Honestly, it has gotten to where I cannot recall the last thread ASF has started that did not simply drip with whatever it is that his bitter agenda purports to be. Whether that has always been intentional on his part is no longer the issue; that he remains either unwilling or unable to recognize and adjust to it is. "Tone deaf," at this point, barely begins to describe it. ASF has proven, if nothing else, to be a unique presence here, and a passionate advocate of whatever it is he believes in. What remains to be seen, however, is whether he can comprehend the concept -- and more importantly, discover the more and more imperative necessity -- of "reading a room." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Isnt it better to have different points of view and not to censor people with opinions that differ from yours? I think that leads to more interesting and intelligent discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 I suggest reading this thread again Equality. Paying close attention to Blondie's,Blade's, and Om's posts. After that, read the rules of Tailgate at the top. may want to browse a couple of the links Henry put up. Then look up and down just the first page of Tailgate. Different points of view are not the problem here. The key words here are offensive. Inmflammatory. Accumulates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Originally posted by Equality Isnt it better to have different points of view and not to censor people with opinions that differ from yours? I think that leads to more interesting and intelligent discussions. This is a magnificent illustration of the term "tone deaf" ... at leat in context of this thread.Yes, Equality, different viewpoints are fine. Now let's try looking a little deeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B&G Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Blade, thank you. It was presumptuous (at best) for me to call for ASF's banishment, particularly since this software grants me the ability to ignore his posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just skins baby Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Man, I wish I had ASF's lifestyle. Surf the internet for all kinds of crap to support his theories and then post them for all to see here on Extremeskins. It really is getting old and most of the time, I just skip his stuff. I don't know what perverse pleasure he gets out of it. I work a rotating shift and see some of his threads are started early (2or 3 AM). How do you have time to have a job? Some of these threads are loooooong. Anyway, I guess I will have to go the route of B&G and put him on ignore unless he posts football stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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