Let's Evaluate Cutler Right NOW. Game Day Re-Play Thread

[BigMike619]

How about... Let's merge this thread with sticky thread on Cutler.

Why are we evaluating someone we are not going to have on our team?

YEAH! we should totally give TK a NNT for making this thread!!

[cphil006]

YEAH! we should totally give TK a NNT for making this thread!!

I concur.

[Oldfan]

BigMike619: No, what Im saying is that Peyton Manning has never been able to benefit from a good D and he won a ring. So did Kurt Warner.

There has never been a QB win a ring without a good defense in the history of the game. There were some that lacked a great defense.

Jay Cutler has not proven anything and he snuck in to the Pro Bowl last year. If any QB deserved to get in it was Rivers.

Philip had a good year, but you embarrass yourself when you slam Cutler. He's the most talented QB in the league, bar none (see post #111 for the opinions of people who know a little about Jay despite their disadvantage of not living in San Diego).

You cant tell me that Cutler didnt fold under pressure when he gave up a 3 game lead in the weak division he is in.

I won't pull it up, but there's a thread in the NFL forum in which I predicted Denver's collapse -- because their defense was crap and, because their luck had to run out, and, given the Chargers offensive power, newly-promoted Rivera only had to improve the defense a tad to run the table and win the division.

why not? because Philly is NOT Oakland. The Cowbums are NOT the Chefs. The Gnats are NOT the Chargers

.

And the Redskins aren't the Broncos. Jay would have much better support.

[texasthunder]

They played 6 games against sorry ass teams like The Chiefs, the Chargers and the Raiders. You mean they couldnt put up big enough numbers against those teams? they lost to the Chefs 33-19. They lose to the Raiders 31-10. They lose to the Chargers 52!!!!-10. You mean thats a winner right there?

You really think a QB who goes 3-3 against the sorry ass AFC West can do better in the NFC East?

Mike- your numbers look impressive.

They lost to the Chiefs 33-19, Jay Cutler had 361 passing yards. Seems like he was trying.

BTW, they were playing in KC.

The next time they played in Denver it was 24-17 infavor of Denver and Jay had 286 yards passing

They lost to the Raiders 31-10, Jay only had 204 yards and they were playing in Denver, so you have a valid point on that game.

But when they played in Oakland it was 41-14 in favor of Denver, and JC had 300 yards passing.

Yep, they lost to the chargers 52-21, JC only had 316 yards passing.

They beat the Chargers 39-38 earlier in the year and JC 350 yards of passing.

So except for that one Raider game, it certainly looks like JC was working his butt off to get the win.

You have to say that Jay Cutler has more upside, and more potential then Jason does to be a franchise QB. And the Skins have not had one of those in a long time.

And just for the record, hell yes I do believe that, with our defense, Jay Cutlers win/loss would be much better.

[BigMike619]

There has never been a QB win a ring without a good defense in the history of the game. There were some that lacked a great defense.

ok man, you can have this one.

Philip had a good year, but you embarrass yourself when you slam Cutler. He's the most talented QB in the league, bar none (see post #111 for the opinions of people who know a little about Jay despite their disadvantage of not living in San Diego).

embarrass myself? are you kidding me? they get beat in the most important game of the season he throws 2 INTs. they lost the last 3 games in a row with him throwing at least one INT. He basically found out that SD had a shot to get back in it (even though they had a 3 game lead and only had to win one of those games to secure the vic) and folded. heck, he was even given a mulligan and told that all he had to do was beat the Sparks heads up and theyd go and he couldnt do that.

I won't pull it up, but there's a thread in the NFL forum in which I predicted Denver's collapse -- because their defense was crap and, because their luck had to run out, and, given the Chargers offensive power, newly-promoted Rivera only had to improve the defense a tad to run the table and win the division.

why not? because Philly is NOT Oakland. The Cowbums are NOT the Chefs. The Gnats are NOT the Chargers.

And the Redskins aren't the Broncos.

youre right, we have better RBs and defense in DC. we also have a better special teams and better TE.

youre not going to give a Norv Turner ran team credit for beating the Donkeys as much as you should the Donkeys folding under pressure, are you? Rivera is good but SD had problems of their own on D.

[BigMike619]

Mike- your numbers look impressive.

They lost to the Chiefs 33-19, Jay Cutler had 361 passing yards. Seems like he was trying.

BTW, they were playing in KC.

The next time they played in Denver it was 24-17 infavor of Denver and Jay had 286 yards passing

thanks. can you name one player thats worth a lick in KC? the mystique of playing in KC is long gone and the only thing they have going for them is their cool little spin on the National Anthem.

They lost to the Raiders 31-10, Jay only had 204 yards and they were playing in Denver, so you have a valid point on that game.

But when they played in Oakland it was 41-14 in favor of Denver, and JC had 300 yards passing.

you forget the one INT. and once again, the Raiders dont have a stellar D. and by not stellar I mean they were pretty bad.

Yep, they lost to the chargers 52-21, JC only had 316 yards passing.

They beat the Chargers 39-38 earlier in the year and JC 350 yards of passing.

he threw the ball 49 times bro. you should do good against a tem if you throw the ball almost 50 times!! still lost though.

So except for that one Raider game, it certainly looks like JC was working his butt off to get the win.

You have to say that Jay Cutler has more upside, and more potential then Jason does to be a franchise QB. And the Skins have not had one of those in a long time.

And just for the record, hell yes I do believe that, with our defense, Jay Cutlers win/loss would be much better.

I dont say that he is. I say he is a benefit of playing in a horrible division and is flashy. He has a great zip on the ball and can throw it a mile but he also doesnt have to face the same teams we do. and we all know that marshall is a stud. a screw up, but a stud.

[KDawg]

Ah, c'mon, Dawg. Don't tease us. I'm interested in your opinion on Cutler.

To make it simple without complicating things, I'd say Cutler would be a help to our team.

That said, coming off the deals to Hall and Haynesworth, I don't think we should be trading away too many draft picks/players in order to get the guy. Had we not gotten Haynesworth it would be a different story.

Cutler is an upgrade to Jason Campbell, 2008. We haven't seen Campbell 2009, though, and he improved from '07-'08. There is hope he can improve again.

I'm not completely on either side, to be honest. Cutler would be nice, Keeping Campbell and giving him one more year would be a good thing as well.

I'd like to find a way to get Cutler and keep Campbell as well, but that's just selfish

[texasthunder]

thanks. can you name one player thats worth a lick in KC? the mystique of playing in KC is long gone and the only thing they have going for them is their cool little spin on the National Anthem.

you forget the one INT. and once again, the Raiders dont have a stellar D. and by not stellar I mean they were pretty bad.

he threw the ball 49 times bro. you should do good against a tem if you throw the ball almost 50 times!! still lost though.

I dont say that he is. I say he is a benefit of playing in a horrible division and is flashy. He has a great zip on the ball and can throw it a mile but he also doesnt have to face the same teams we do. and we all know that marshall is a stud. a screw up, but a stud.

Ok, you make some good points about KC and Oak.

So how did JC do against similar ranked defenses?

The Rams, who beat us BTW, have a defense ranked below the Raiders-

Jason threw for 208 yards on 26 attempts

Against Seattle, who ranks two spots lower then then Rams-

Jason threw for 206 yards on 33 attempts.

Now I will also throw this out-

Against the Lions, the worse team on defense-

Jason did throw for 328 yards on 28 attempts.

[BigMike619]

Ok, you make some good points about KC and Oak.

So how did JC do against similar ranked defenses?

The Rams, who beat us BTW, have a defense ranked below the Raiders-

Jason threw for 208 yards on 26 attempts

Against Seattle, who ranks two spots lower then then Rams-

Jason threw for 206 yards on 33 attempts.

Now I will also throw this out-

Against the Lions, the worse team on defense-

Jason did throw for 328 yards on 28 attempts.

oh, I dont want to act like Im pounding the Campbell drum but I am not for trading away any first round picks for Cutler.

I think Cutler is a better QB but I just dont think he is the missing piece and I dont want to give away someone like Cooley to get him.

I would rather give Colt a shot if we are going to demote Jason at all first and then move on from there. Cutler isnt the last QB in the league.

and NICE stat pulls bro. I cant do anything but respect your style of debating.

[texasthunder]

To make it simple without complicating things, I'd say Cutler would be a help to our team.

That said, coming off the deals to Hall and Haynesworth, I don't think we should be trading away too many draft picks/players in order to get the guy. Had we not gotten Haynesworth it would be a different story.

Cutler is an upgrade to Jason Campbell, 2008. We haven't seen Campbell 2009, though, and he improved from '07-'08. There is hope he can improve again.

I'm not completely on either side, to be honest. Cutler would be nice, Keeping Campbell and giving him one more year would be a good thing as well.

I'd like to find a way to get Cutler and keep Campbell as well, but that's just selfish

So if we could make a trade like this:

Jason Campbell, Todd Yoder and next years 1st round pick,

for Jay Cutler and his present contract,

then you would push the button to make it happen ??

[KDawg]

So if we could make a trade like this:

Jason Campbell, Todd Yoder and next years 1st round pick,

for Jay Cutler and his present contract,

then you would push the button to make it happen ??

Perhaps. I'd also want to talk extension with Cutler and see what he was looking for money wise. If the cap stays in tact, a deal for Jay Cutler could cripple us cap wise having both a huge QB contract and Haynesworth's deal on our books.

Yes, yes, cash beats cap. I'm aware. Doesn't mean that two huge contracts (Plus other huge ones, like, say, Portis et al) won't hurt our ability to spend.

[Oldfan]

To make it simple without complicating things, I'd say Cutler would be a help to our team.

That said, coming off the deals to Hall and Haynesworth, I don't think we should be trading away too many draft picks/players in order to get the guy. Had we not gotten Haynesworth it would be a different story.

I'm missing the connection to Haynesworth. What does he have to do with upgrading the QB position?

Cutler is an upgrade to Jason Campbell, 2008. We haven't seen Campbell 2009, though, and he improved from '07-'08. There is hope he can improve again.

I'm confident that Jason will improve, but equally confident that he will never have the potential to be as good as Cutler.

Given Cutler's age and his ability, I see this as an unprecedented opportunity to put the Skins at the top of a mediocre heap for the next ten years. Jason is probably worth a mid-level #2 pick in trade. I'd happily send Jason, this year's #1 and next year's #1 to Denver. I think they'd be foolish to accept.

At this point, they should offer to renegotiate Jay's contract. I think that's what this fuss is all about anyway.

[KDawg]

I'm missing the connection to Haynesworth. What does he have to do with upgrading the QB position?

Uhhh.

$$$.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Perhaps. I'd also want to talk extension with Cutler and see what he was looking for money wise. If the cap stays in tact, a deal for Jay Cutler could cripple us cap wise having both a huge QB contract and Haynesworth's deal on our books.

Yes, yes, cash beats cap. I'm aware. Doesn't mean that two huge contracts (Plus other huge ones, like, say, Portis et al) won't hurt our ability to spend.

His contract as is, is less than Jason is scheduled to make next year.

And knowing what riches Snyder would give him, I'm sure it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for him to sit on his current deal for one more year, then get compensated handsomely when we have more cap space.

Hail.

[cphil006]

There has never been a QB win a ring without a good defense in the history of the game. There were some that lacked a great defense.

Sure there has: 2006 Colts, despite their "improved defense", they were not good, allowing an average of over 22 points a game...

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=1345

In fact, at least five teams that won the super bowl allowed over 19 points a game... but they all had one thing in common: Awesome QB's...

[Oldfan]

Uhhh.

$$$.

Uh, not a problem. A huge bonus in a deal with Cutler is that he has three years remaining on a bargain basement contract. He's not in a position to bargain strongly for what he's actually worth.

[cphil006]

Uh, not a problem. A huge bonus in a deal with Cutler is that he has three years remaining on a bargain basement contract. He's not in a position to bargain strongly for what he's actually worth.

bargain basement contract??

Cutler, the 11th pick in the NFL draft, agreed to a package worth up to $48 million over six years

Not Albert Haynesworth, but still significant.

[BigMike619]

Sure there have. 2006 Colts, despite their "improved defense", they were not good, allowing an average of over 22 points a game...

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=1345

In fact, at least five teams that won the super bowl allowed over 19 points a game... but they all had one thing in common: Awesome QB's...

thank you...

[Oldfan]

Sure there have. 2006 Colts, despite their "improved defense", they were not good, allowing an average of over 22 points a game...

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=1345

In fact, at least five teams that won the super bowl allowed over 19 points a game... but they all had one thing in common: Awesome QB's...

Points allowed per game is a stat that measures the quality of the offense almost as much as it does the defense since a good offense keeps it defense off the field and doesn't give the opponent short-field advantages.

As for your claim that "awesome QBs" are a common factor, the typical, uninformed fan declares QBs awesome because their teams won rings. It has nothing to do with their individual accomplishments.

I think Terry Bradshaw was barely above average as a QB, but he has four rings due to the best supporting talent, offense and defense, ever assembled. I can't prove that, but can't be proven wrong either.

[Oldfan]

bargain basement contract??

Cutler, the 11th pick in the NFL draft, agreed to a package worth up to $48 million over six years

Not Albert Haynesworth, but still significant.

The current contract has him counting two mil against the cap, one of the lowest of the starting QBs in the league.

[Meatsnack]

Here are some additional facts for the fire from Pro Football Reference:

(Warning: Long, Math-heavy)

The sysnopsis is that by the formula they derive in the article, Cutler ranks as the 4th most valuable QB in the league behind Drew Brees, Matt Ryan, and Phillip Rivers. Teh formula takes into account the number of years of "prime production" projected based upon production at certain age marks.

Campbell, by way of comparison is 13th, behind (of all things) JaMarcus Russell. I have a few problems with the formula and don't think we should get Cutler in any case but an interesting and well thought out article.

[cphil006]

The current contract has him counting two mil against the cap, one of the lowest of the starting QBs in the league.

What he counts against the cap and what his contract is can be confusing.

If we trade Campbell to get Cutler, then the remaining portion of his signing bonus will be dead money against the cap. I would count that as to what Cutler's cap hit would actually be.

But wait, why are we even talking Cutler when he plays for the Broncos and will not be in Washington this season???

[cphil006]

Points allowed per game is a stat that measures the quality of the offense almost as much as it does the defense since a good offense keeps it defense off the field and doesn't give the opponent short-field advantages.

As for your claim that "awesome QBs" are a common factor, the typical, uninformed fan declares QBs awesome because their teams won rings. It has nothing to do with their individual accomplishments.

I think Terry Bradshaw was barely above average as a QB, but he has four rings due to the best supporting talent, offense and defense, ever assembled. I can't prove that, but can't be proven wrong either.

I referred to awesome QBs in this case as Hall of Fame QBs... a typical uniformed fan may not know what QBs are in the Hall of Fame... and some would argue Jim Plunkett derserves that as well, since he played best when it mattered the most...

As for Terry Bradshaw.., leading his team to 4 SB titles says a lot, and if you want to call him average... that's your own business.

As for defenses winning Super Bowls... Pittsburgh's couldn't handle Larry Fitzgerald and Arizona... and ironically enough... it was Pittsburgh's QB: Ben Rothleisberger who was clutch and led them to the title... A QB... imagine that.

[cphil006]

Points allowed per game is a stat that measures the quality of the offense almost as much as it does the defense since a good offense keeps it defense off the field and doesn't give the opponent short-field advantages.

So when JAX scored 44 points on them that year, it's because the Colts went down the field and scored so much (17 points)??

Are you saying a good offense will keep it's defense off the field? I think the Colts had a pretty good offense... esp. since they won the SB that year with a defense that allowed 22 points a game.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I think Terry Bradshaw was barely above average as a QB, but he has four rings due to the best supporting talent, offense and defense, ever assembled. I can't prove that, but can't be proven wrong either.

Couldn't agree more OF, I've had the argument on him a few times.

And you can throw in the current Steelers starter there too.

Big Ben will doubtless go to the HoF, due to the rings, and no doubt he's a great leader and tough SOB. But as a pure QB? He's nothing special, certainly not to get into the Hall on his talents alone.

I guess it comes down to how you judge greatness.

Hail.