Drunken Master III Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 After several issues have risen, is anyone opposed to starting over and trashing this west coast experiment and a defense which is effective but not aggressive enough. I for one am not opposed to the idea. With CP and Zorn bickering through the media, smoot uncharacteristically speaking out, the use or lack of use of our rookies, and other questionable decisions something has to give. I don't think the Skins are a west coast team. I don't even think Campbell is the ideal QB for a WCO. To be honest with you, I think if Gibbs were still here with the same weapons that Zorn has now our old O would be much further ahead. The rookies' development seems to be stumped by a rookie coach who is still trying to develop his own ideas. We really had few choices with Gibbs stepping down with little time to spare. Sometimes I wonder would Cowher be all that bad next season. If Zorn stays, he needs to find a new offensive coordinator who actually has experience. That seems to be Zorn's biggest mistake IMO. As far as the D goes, it has been very effective. Of course the loss of S. Taylor had a huge effect on the D, but to me the defense isn't agressive enough with the lack of pass rush from the front four. I don't think Blache honestly believes it, but he says all the time that sacks don't matter. Really?!?!? They don't? If you can't generate a pass rush with your front four, then you had better try to pressure the QB in some fashion. I think I've seen only one CB blitz all season long. I understand that the D played fairly well against the Ravens, but to blitz a rookie QB only once or twice is ridiculous. What makes it worse is that the Ravens receivers don't scare anyone. So you ask the question, who should be brought in to replace Blache and his schemes? None other than Gregg Williams. You ask why. I ask why not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSkins2006 Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 After several issues have risen, is anyone opposed to starting over and trashing this west coast experiment and defense which is effective but not aggressive enough. I for one am not opposed to the idea. With CP and Zorn bickering through the media, smoot uncharacteristically speaking out, the use or lack of use of our rookies, and other questionable decisions something has to give.I don't think the Skins are a west coast team. I don't even think Campbell is the ideal QB for a WCO. To be honest with you, I think if Gibbs were still here with the same weapons that Zorn has now our old O would be much further ahead. The rookies' development seems to be stumped by a rookie coach who is still trying to develop his own ideas. We really had few choices with Gibbs stepping down with little time to spare. Sometimes I wonder would Cowher be all that bad next season. As far as the D goes, it has been very effective. Of course the loss of S. Taylor had a huge effect on the D, but to me the defense isn't agressive enough with the lack of pass rush from the front four. I don't think Blache honestly believes it, but he says all the time that sacks don't matter. Really?!?!? They don't? If you can't generate a pass rush with your front four, then you had better try to pressure the QB in some fashion. I think I've seen only one CB blitz all season long. I understand that the D played fairly well against the Ravens, but to blitz a rookie QB only once or twice is ridiculous. What makes it worse is that the Ravens receiver don't scare anyone. So you ask the question, who should be brought in to replace Blache and his schemes? None other than Gregg Williams. You ask why. I ask why not. You've got some really good valid arguments there and I agree with you on mostly everything. The funny thing I find about blache is that, what he said about gadget plays.."We don't plan for them"...WHY NOT!? thats freaking stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinz4Life12 Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 give zorn another year. let him make things right with the players and coaches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saqs Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Uhh, no. We're 7-6 even with no pass rush, a QB still learning, one threat at WR, an old banged up offensive line who's weakness is pass blocking, and a rookie head coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I think we should keep Zorn. Not many of us thought we would be 7-6 through 13 games this season at the beginning of the year. Yeah we have started to regress towards the end, but Zorn is learning on the job. We should be improving but its not all on him. He can't help that the o-line can't block or that the WRs drop passes on 3rd down. If we get rid of Zorn after this year, then this whole year was a waste. I want to see what Campbell can do if he is in an offense for more than one year. If we can fix the o-line then we will solve alot of our problems on offense. Look what a rebuilt o-line is doing in Miami and Atlanta. I also do not think we need to let Blache go either. If anything, the defense is the strongest point on this team. If it ain't broke don't fix it. We have a top 10 defense and have no problem stopping the run. I don't think anyone would argue that we could use some more sacks and get pressure on the QB, but is that Blache's fault or the FO's fault for not drafting bigger and younger d-linemen? Its not like when Gregg Williams was here that we were leading the league in sacks. Our secondary is young and can be one of the best in the league in a few years. We need to stop having knee-jerk reactions when everything is going bad. Yeah we're in a slump. But firing everyone is not going to fix it. If we do let someone go it has to be Vinny. We need a GM with a good football mind, not one of Danny's friends. This team isn't that far off and has the talent. Juss give the coaches some time to get it all worked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neophyte Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Does anyone really believe it will make a difference with our FO? Seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngestson Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I think you have to look at the coaching much the same way we have to look at rookies and 2nd year guys. It takes time and ojt to really figure out how to perform in this league. Zorn has shown flashes of being the real thing, and deserves the chance to show what he can and can't do. I know our offense stincks with Zorn, but it also stunk with Al Saunders who is generally seen as a offensive master mind. It also stunk with Joe Gibbs, HOF class of 1996 and designer of some offensive machines during his first stint in the NFL. This (along with our own eyes) tells a tale of woeful personel moves dating back 10 years or more (see Wilbon). Zorn needs the fair shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justice98 Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 If you change coaches next year, you really need to start the whole program from scratch. That’s the only way you’re gonna keep stability is allowing a rebuilding to occur from the ground up. But they keep trying to refuel in mid air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boy2Der Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Everybody always talks about how much this organization has so much turnover and their sick of it and they want to build through the draft. Well the reason why we haven't built through the drat for years is because it takes time to really know what the player will develop into. Jim Zorn needs to be here at least 3 years before I write him off he is a smart guy and he will have these problems solved just give him time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAFGA Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 THe only thing consistent on this team is change. People are calling for Zorn's head on here and some want to stay the course. Battle lines are being drawn. I, for one, would like to stay the course. No one player is bigger than the whole team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#98QBKiller Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I want Blache to stay. Offensively, I'm not opposed to a coaching change. We've seen through teams like NO and Dallas that a team can be explosive in a first-year offense if you have the right coaches teaching the right way. Fix our OL and we have all the tools for a proven offensive coordinator to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSkins2006 Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I think we should keep Zorn. Not many of us thought we would be 7-6 through 13 games this season at the beginning of the year. Yeah we have started to regress towards the end, but Zorn is learning on the job. We should be improving but its not all on him. He can't help that the o-line can't block or that the WRs drop passes on 3rd down. If we get rid of Zorn after this year, then this whole year was a waste. I want to see what Campbell can do if he is in an offense for more than one year. If we can fix the o-line then we will solve alot of our problems on offense. Look what a rebuilt o-line is doing in Miami and Atlanta.I also do not think we need to let Blache go either. If anything, the defense is the strongest point on this team. If it ain't broke don't fix it. We have a top 10 defense and have no problem stopping the run. I don't think anyone would argue that we could use some more sacks and get pressure on the QB, but is that Blache's fault or the FO's fault for not drafting bigger and younger d-linemen? Its not like when Gregg Williams was here that we were leading the league in sacks. Our secondary is young and can be one of the best in the league in a few years. We need to stop having knee-jerk reactions when everything is going bad. Yeah we're in a slump. But firing everyone is not going to fix it. If we do let someone go it has to be Vinny. We need a GM with a good football mind, not one of Danny's friends. This team isn't that far off and has the talent. Juss give the coaches some time to get it all worked out. But he can help the fact that if those WRs would catch the ball they'd still be 3 yards short of the first down with his horrible play calling. Not only that but he can also help the line by not putting a back-up center at strong side! He put Geisinger and Campbell in serious danger when he did that. Should have realized in the first place...huh? A back-up center going against terrell suggs? Wow I can't do that maybe I should put heyer over to the left side and put geisinger over on the weakside. Some of his mistakes have been worse than a rookie head coach should be making, and not only that but blache saying they don't plan for gadget plays? Thats just assinine. The coaches are a huge flaw to this team and thats because of there mistakes, HUGE mistakes that a rookie coach shouldn't even make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHard86 Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 in order to get the benefits of consistency, you have to be consistent, even when you're 7-6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter_R Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Musical chairs with the coaching staff. How'd that work out about a decade ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 But he can help the fact that if those WRs would catch the ball they'd still be 3 yards short of the first down with his horrible play calling. Not only that but he can also help the line by not putting a back-up center at strong side! He put Geisinger and Campbell in serious danger when he did that. Should have realized in the first place...huh? A back-up center going against terrell suggs? Wow I can't do that maybe I should put heyer over to the left side and put geisinger over on the weakside. Some of his mistakes have been worse than a rookie head coach should be making, and not only that but blache saying they don't plan for gadget plays? Thats just assinine. The coaches are a huge flaw to this team and thats because of there mistakes, HUGE mistakes that a rookie coach shouldn't even make. I'm not saying that Zorn is perfect, but we have to give him a chance. Mid-season everyone was talking about him as a Coach of the Year candidate. Now everyone wants to fire him. Belichick went 5-11 his rookie year and New England didn't fire him after a bad year. Joe Gibbs started 0-5 in his first year with the Skins. Zorn is 7-6 and we're still very much alive in the playoff race. For as many things that are wrong with this team, its impressive that we have a winning record and can still make the playoffs. Don't give up on Zorn yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttr77 Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 We don't need change just for the sake of change. However, if there is change, it also has to include a change in philosophy across the board. No quick-fixes...this FO needs to realize that this team is not THAT close to being a consistent winner and take the necessary steps to build one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chump Bailey Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 From what we have to go on from this point currently - no... I would retain Bugel and Blache. Zorn and Smith would be jettisoned and I would make a strong push for either Gruden or Cowher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaimeDeCurry Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Zorn is 7-6 and we're still very much alive in the playoff race. For as many things that are wrong with this team, its impressive that we have a winning record and can still make the playoffs. Don't give up on Zorn yet! This is where I am. For all the obvious on-the-field problems this team is having, we're still 7-6. The only incompetence I seem to see from our coach is knowing WHAT you're allowed to be open with the media about, and what you need to keep between you and the players. That seems remarkably fixable to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brotherz Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I have two conflicting thoughts. 1) Obviously, we have been in flux and have been a very unstable organization under Snyder and I really wanted to believe that Zorn would be here a good long while so generally I would be very opposed to cutting a coach after one year. Furthermore, think back to how we got Zorn in the first place. NOBODY (sans Fassel who will coach for anyone) wanted to come here because of our erratic ownership and meddling. Spags backed out to stay a coordinator, and we were interviewing guys off the street to fill one of 32 head coaching jobs in the entire world at the highest level. That's pretty sad. Everyone just starts screaming Cower and Shottenheimer etc. What makes you think after firing Zorn after on year that our rep will get BETTER than it was when we couldn't pay anyone enough to come here LAST year? We just perpetuate a cycle of incompetence this way. Not to mention now we have these recievers, the TE, etc that were specifically selected for this system and this coach. Likewise, are we gonna EVER know what the hell we have with Campbell? Everyone is making excuse after excuse for the guy as it is despite the Joe Flaccos and Matt Ryan's of the world showing us beyond a doubt that "new system", "new coach" and even NEW LEAGUE doesn't necessarily translate to sucking. We go change philosophies again and we will all be fighting next year about why Jason still sucks. We will never get off of this carousel and he is in a contract year next year further risking us getting embroiled in a multi year deal with a franchise QB who can't sustain a franchise. 2) Now for the flip side. I am deeply concerned by a couple of things. This guy's draft picks with the exception of a lightning bolt (luck?) in the 7th round in Horton ALL have not panned out. That is a big problem for me because it leads me to one of two conclusions - one - he has no idea what to look for or - two - the players can't pick up the system because Zorn doesn't know it himself so he certainly can't teach it. Which leads directly into my biggest concern: We can debate whether CP's comments were appropriate or not all we want but clearly there are some real issues. In week 14 of the NFL system Zorn is telling us that the reason his QB is getting the crap knocked out of him is "communication". In Week 14?? Seriously? We don't know who to block yet? Getting trucked because Suggs is quicker and stronger than you is one thing - not knowing where to line up or who to block is something entirely different. Whether he should have benched portis or not is debatable. WHY he benched portis is just concerning. Portis is saying that they tell him to chip and he gets in trouble for not releasing. He releases and he gets in trouble for not staying in to help out. They have 25 different protection schemes and they apparently don't know them. Some of these guys are 10 year veterans. Again, getting physically beaten (which is also happening don't get me wrong) is one thing, not knowing the protections is coaching. All of a sudden zorn's calling out everyone on the team and constantly saying "execution" is the problem is no longer "refreshing". Its now throwing his team under the bus. The rookies are ALL too dumb to pick up this system and get on the field? Rinehart isn't ready to come in and help out with TWO starting offensive lineman out now? Fred Smoot is ****ing about playing time? CP is blowing up completely, asking to be put on IR, saying maybe we should "split ties" in the media? The offense is absolutely atrocious and there is absolutely NO sign of it getting better. In fact it is getting significantly worse every week. He looks really lost out there. Now if we were in week 2 I could get over it but in week 14 with a team that was in the playoffs last year and completely unified at the end of the season, we now have completely begun infighting. If the guy is totally lost, and the ownership now realizes that he is completely over his head (let's remember he is a life long position coach) and we are definately going to be getting rid of him next year anyway because he just can't cut it then go ahead and rip the bandaide off before we end up with more crappy recievers in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooley4President Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Wait, crap, I voted "yes" to starting over but meant "no". Teams need time to learn, practice, and understand. Campbell deserves time to learn a system, and I mean really learn it, like learn it enough to feel comfortable. Look at Eli now, he's been working with the coaches for 5 years now and look how comfortable he looks compared to a year or two ago. And Zorn needs time to learn how to relate to players. If players have a problem with what he's doing, why do we assume he's out? Can't a coach learn like players can learn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoRnAndRaiSedSkinsFan Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 No way do we start over. Think about this, there were a handful of coaches offered our HC position and all turned it down. We got Zorn, who is looking better than expected when he was given the job. If Zorn were to be fired this offseason, who would come in and coach this team. NOBODY would. Nobody legit that is. Yea this isn't a west coast team...yet. Coaches have to get some personnel in to fit what they need. I expect an overhaul on the O and D lines the next 2 seasons. We have the beast secondary. We have young talent at the skill positions on offense. We need to build the lines while the offense matures. I think we can have a good team in a few seasons, we just need to keep a coach. I want it to be Zorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttr77 Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 No way do we start over. Think about this, there were a handful of coaches offered our HC position and all turned it down. We got Zorn, who is looking better than expected when he was given the job. If Zorn were to be fired this offseason, who would come in and coach this team. NOBODY would. Nobody legit that is. I think if Danny offered enough money and FULL CONTROL, he could get almost anyone available. Even some that are not. But I'd be willing to bet that this type of offer will not be on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAFGA Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 We don't need change just for the sake of change. However, if there is change, it also has to include a change in philosophy across the board. No quick-fixes...this FO needs to realize that this team is not THAT close to being a consistent winner and take the necessary steps to build one. Judging by some people on this board, people want change for the sake of change, or they got their feelings hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAFGA Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I think if Danny offered enough money and FULL CONTROL, he could get almost anyone available. Even some that are not.But I'd be willing to bet that this type of offer will not be on the table. Why didn't he do that last time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttr77 Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Judging by some people on this board, people want change for the sake of change, or they got their feelings hurt. Well, when you have an unsuccessful season, you can only generate excitement in one of two ways: 1. Replace the coach 2. Replace the players Which one is more likely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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