The Treatment of Bush Has Been a Disgrace

[Mad Mike]

I base the following on listening to Barrack Obama's gracious homage to John McCain in his speech last night:

When Barack Obama speaks publicly about George Bush at some point during the transfer of power, he will demonstrate how you can express vehement disagreement with a man's policies and actions in office without denigrating the man himself. That is a lesson clearly lost on many people in this thread, and sadly, among many in the political climate today. Too bad.

Agreed. And just for extra perspective. The "evil" Bush's comment on the election of Obama....

Bush: Obama's election shows 'promise of our nation'

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/05/reaction.bush/index.html

President Bush on Wednesday hailed the election of Barack Obama as "a triumph of the American story."

"Americans can be proud of the history that was made yesterday," President Bush said Wednesday.

Obama's rise to become the nation's first black president is "a testament to hard work, optimism and a faith in the enduring promise of our nation," Bush said in the White House Rose Garden.

"No matter how they cast their ballots, all Americans can be proud of the history that was made yesterday," said Bush, whose second term in the Oval Office will end when Obama is sworn in on January 20.

That bastage!

[Gibbsisgod2006]

Which is clearly completely different from, say, forcibly lowering somebody's body temperature to the point of unconsciousness.

Or drowning people to make them talk. Or suspending people from their shoulder sockets. (Both of which, I'll point out, were defined as torture by the founders of this country.)

Sorry, but what I see is that your clear distinction (which anybody who can't see is a moron) is akin to "well, they both robbed banks, but one of them robbed bigger banks."

Do you think that terrorists are just going to give you vital intel that you need by asking them over and over? No they won't, sometimes you have to do some dirty work to get the questions answered. These are terrorist do you think the terrorist's would take it easy on our soliders?

[MurrayH81]

So Bush really only listened to the conservative side of things. What is Obama going to do? He has voted for his party 97% of the time. Is that all of a sudden going to change? To blame Bush for everything is extremely ignorant. What could he have been impeached for..its not like he cheated on his wife with an intern in the white house.

I believe your partisanship makes you fear that President Obama will perform as poorly as President Bush did regarding partisan politics. We can only hope that he won't, but beating up someone for something that they may do versus what someone has done is fundamentally different. Only a blind partisan Democrat blames President Bush for every problem in the country. The rest of us blame him for the things that he has done wrong in our opinion, based on facts and results. It is certainly true that President Clinton had moral and ethical challenges, and abused his personal power at work with a paid employee of the government. Certainly enough for him to resign or be impeached IMO. It is also true that President Bush has violated US Law and his oath of office to defend the Constitution. Certainly enough for him to resign or be impeached IMO. President-elect Obama has not done anything to warrant such treatment as of yet (at least as President-elect). If you are wary and watchful of him, that's super. I hope we all are ready to be involved in running our country again. Check your anger, resentment, hate and fear at the door until he earns them please.

And if Bush's biggest (public knowledge) mistake was cheating on his wife, America would be in far, far better shape right now.

QFT

Granted the war was run badly and Bush should be called out for that but Democrats all act as if they were lied to - if that was true allot of those democrats were lying before W was even elected.

Lies from the left and the right are bad for the country. Let's work hard to keep them in line and honest, otherwise, the pendulum will swing, the hate will swell, and we will all fail.

I consider his greatest fault to be in the selection of those that he surrounded himself with at the highest levels; Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, and Rove as examples.

Nothing like bad advice from trusted associates to screw up the legacy of a man who only made time to listen to 'Yes, Sir' appointees.

Right. Everybody respected Clinton. Was polite to him. Spelled his name correctly. Didn't call him names.

And you're right, again. There hasn't been a single case here in Tailgate of Bush supporters telling people who disagree with the President that they aren't Americans, and telling then to get out of the country if they disagree, the way all the Clinton people did when people criticized him.

Yep, it was Clinton who spent his entire Administration yelling "Treason!" whenever anybody disagreed with him.

lol, how dare you point out the start of modern partisan political behavior. You are spoiling their rants!

This thread is proof that Obama's rhetoric on unity and bipartisanship will result in virtually nothing, just as Bushs's did. Obama's supporters do not want unity, they want their pound of flesh. This election was not one on unifying the country, it was won on throwing the bums out. Obama's victory is thanks to the ridiculous hatred and vitriol that has been whipped up about the current president and it will not be satiated without "revenge" of some kind.

There will be at least three years of investigations and hearings. Debate will be cut off, opposition silenced and the Democratic agenda will be forced through, due to their new majorities in Congress.

What I don't know today, is whether this will be an overreaching that results in a swing back to the middle, or if my country has changed so much that it will be welcomed and applauded. I wake up this morning feeling for the first time that I may not belong here anymore. Clinton's eight years did not make me feel this way, but something about the way that this election has unfolded gives me an odd feeling of alienation.

You are projecting what you fear. Your fear is not yet reality. You are correct that the pendulum awaits those who lean too far in any direction. Let's let the President-elect make mistakes before we tar and feather him, mkay? We were all behind President Bush post 9/11, and waited until he flushed and waived to point out that the emperor has no clothes.

It's not crap, it's true. Just give this some time to sink in. Things are sure to unwind.

Self-fulfilling Prophet.. You have a phone call line 1. Glad you are with us to do your part governing the country. :doh:

What Saddam and his sons were doing were far worse comparison. You have to get the intel some way. You think that terrorist are going to tell you right off the bat?

No, that's what the FBI says, and that's what we as a country decided to do when we signed the Geneva Conventions, passed laws in the US, and wrote the guidelines for conduct for the military. One man doesn't get to over-rule all those things without trampling all over the very "outdated" document that gives him authority to be President. No one was suggesting that the Hussein boys were in line for saint hood. They were hardly a threat to main street USA. Now, if some al-Queda folks needed a little extra fast persuasion, rendition did occur prior to President Bush taking office. Sullying the Consitution, solemn treaties and our country to accomplish the same thing wasn't a good idea.

[Prosperity]

Advocating naming a SEWER plant after the man out of spite or advocating insultive behavior toward a president is not respectful: it displays a high level of immaturity on the behalf of that individual.

Listen, people like politicians need fame and respect as a reward, it is part of their existence. When someone fails so miserably, they ought to be treated like a disgrace. Bush meets the criteria of a failure and he should be treated as such. He is a disgrace by anyone but his most partisan supporters. He ought to be treated as such. It's not like he should be made fun of to hurt his feelings, it's part of the reward punishment system in our society. It will show other future Presidents that they can't disgrace themselves to such a level and still maintain a high level of respect.

This goes both ways. I would say that people insulting Clinton or people insulting our President elect Obama suffer from a maturity level that lends itself to grade school playground-like behavior of calling others names.

I'm not interested in your lip service

And like I've said countless times already in this thread and throughout other threads is that it is inappropriate and immature to disrespect the office of the presidency like this. Again, vehemently disagreeing with the president, being upset about how he has run his office are NOT disrespectful...but devolving into name-calling, sewer plant-naming, and other insulting behaviors are.

Disgraceful people ought to be treated as such. He has failed in his duties to the American people and the Office of President. I recognize that when he is the acting President he demands a certain level of respect, but once out of that office I don't care if he is called "Mr. President" or if he has a pension or a set oval office napkins. He ought to be punished for his failures, and maybe others will learn from it.

[Gibbsisgod2006]

I believe your partisanship makes you fear that President Obama will perform as poorly as President Bush did regarding partisan politics. We can only hope that he won't, but beating up someone for something that they may do versus what someone has done is fundamentally different. Only a blind partisan Democrat blames President Bush for every problem in the country. The rest of us blame him for the things that he has done wrong in our opinion, based on facts and results. It is certainly true that President Clinton had moral and ethical challenges, and abused his personal power at work with a paid employee of the government. Certainly enough for him to resign or be impeached IMO. It is also true that President Bush has violated US Law and his oath of office to defend the Constitution. Certainly enough for him to resign or be impeached IMO. President-elect Obama has not done anything to warrant such treatment as of yet (at least as President-elect). If you are wary and watchful of him, that's super. I hope we all are ready to be involved in running our country again. Check your anger, resentment, hate and fear at the door until he earns them please.

QFT

Lies from the left and the right are bad for the country. Let's work hard to keep them in line and honest, otherwise, the pendulum will swing, the hate will swell, and we will all fail.

Nothing like bad advice from trusted associates to screw up the legacy of a man who only made time to listen to 'Yes, Sir' appointees.

lol, how dare you point out the start of modern partisan political behavior. You are spoiling their rants!

You are projecting what you fear. Your fear is not yet reality. You are correct that the pendulum awaits those who lean too far in any direction. Let's let the President-elect make mistakes before we tar and feather him, mkay? We were all behind President Bush post 9/11, and waited until he flushed and waived to point out that the emperor has no clothes.

Self-fulfilling Prophet.. You have a phone call line 1. Glad you are with us to do your part governing the country. :doh:

No, that's what the FBI says, and that's what we as a country decided to do when we signed the Geneva Conventions, passed laws in the US, and wrote the guidelines for conduct for the military. One man doesn't get to over-rule all those things without trampling all over the very "outdated" document that gives him authority to be President. No one was suggesting that the Hussein boys were in line for saint hood. They were hardly a threat to main street USA. Now, if some al-Queda folks needed a little extra fast persuasion, rendition did occur prior to President Bush taking office. Sullying the Consitution, solemn treaties and our country to accomplish the same thing wasn't a good idea.

Right or wrong someone has to do the dirty work.

[DCMONEY]

Bush is the worst. Please :doh:

[DCSaints_fan]

Do you think that terrorists are just going to give you vital intel that you need by asking them over and over? No they won't, sometimes you have to do some dirty work to get the questions answered. These are terrorist do you think the terrorist's would take it easy on our soliders?

Funny story(if you're into dark humor) that used to be told in the old Soviet Union:

One day Stalin goes to his office and notices his cigar box is missing. He orders the head of the KGB to find the thief. Later on that day, he finds he had misplaced his cigar box in his bedroom. He calls into the head of the KGB to inform him to call off the search. He responds "But Comrade Stalin, several culprits have already confessed to the crime"

Moral of the story: If you torture someone, they'll tell you what you want to hear, whether its true or not.

Another disadvantage is allies who don't agree with torture would be less willing to hand over suspects to us if we are known to use torture.

[headexplode]

With Bush, as with Clinton, there was always a question of legitimacy.

Bush was originally painted as a buffoon, and was the butt of many late-night jokes. After 9/11, however, Bush was given a great opportunity to lead this country in a difficult time. All but the most cynical Americans stood behind him, regardless of any residual bad feelings about the 2000 election, and for a short time, Bush delivered what we all needed. He had approval ratings of more than 90%. He squandered it all (with a lot of help from his friends).

The respect for the Office should be shown, ultimately, by the person that holds that office. Bush's obvious disrespect for that office, and for the people he was supposed to represent, has been far more consequential than the name of a sewage plant or the name of a porno movie. The Office is an abstraction, an ideal. If one that occupies it cannot live up to that ideal, then we are no more obliged to show them more respect than they are willing to reciprocate.

[81artmonk]

Give me a break.

People accused Bill and Hillary clinton of MURDERING his long time friend, Vince Foster, and then covering it up....

Doesn't get any worse then that.

People in general or do you mean, the media, celebs, politicians. Cause the only people who did that to Bill was people in general. EVERYONE was after Bush.

[Gibbsisgod2006]

Funny story(if you're into dark humor) that used to be told in the old Soviet Union:

One day Stalin goes to his office and notices his cigar box is missing. He orders the head of the KGB to find the thief. Later on that day, he finds he had misplaced his cigar box in his bedroom. He calls into the head of the KGB to inform him to call off the search. He responds "But Comrade Stalin, several culprits have already confessed to the crime"

Moral of the story: If you torture someone, they'll tell you what you want to hear, whether its true or not.

Another disadvantage is allies who don't agree with torture would be less willing to hand over suspects to us if we are known to use torture.

That's may be true but it is the only way to get information from terrorists. Like I said before they are not just going to give up valuable information.

[The 12th Commandment]

That's may be true but it is the only way to get information from terrorists. Like I said before they are not just going to give up valuable information.

No it's not. You get good intel from feet on the ground. To achieve feet on the ground you must have diplomatic relations or be on the right side of the issue so the locals help out from a perspective of helping themselves. Bush did neither acting like a bull in a china shop. A unilateral bull I might add. torture is wrong. My country shouldn't do it. If it does it must be so limited and of such a last resort that we never hear about it. When you're not able to cover it up you're doing it to much IMO. Plausible deniability.

[Gibbsisgod2006]

No it's not. You get good intel from feet on the ground. To achieve feet on the ground you must have diplomatic relations or be on the right side of the issue so the locals help out from a perspective of helping themselves. Bush did neither acting like a bull in a china shop. A unilateral bull I might add. torture is wrong. My country shouldn't do it. If it does it must be so limited and of such a last resort that we never hear about it. When you're not able to cover it up you're doing it to much IMO. Plausible deniability.

Oh cry me a river.....

[The 12th Commandment]

Oh cry me a river.....

What? That's a weird reaction and I don't get it. I'm suggesting they be sneaky for Christ sake. You think we should be torturing people on the Mall or what?

[SkinsOrlando]

Before this thread gets hi-jacked any further about what constitutes torture and it's usefulness can I please refer people back to the article I posted.

[Gibbsisgod2006]

What? That's a weird reaction and I don't get it. I'm suggesting they be sneaky for Christ sake. You think we should be torturing people on the Mall or what?

Sorry about that I didn't read the last sentance I was called away from my desk so I just replied.

[MurrayH81]

Right or wrong someone has to do the dirty work.

Can you give me a hint here of what specifically in my post you are talking about?

That's may be true but it is the only way to get information from terrorists. Like I said before they are not just going to give up valuable information.

Oh cry me a river.....

Okay, at least three people have given you a conflicting viewpoint, and all you are doing is recycling your argument and refuting their claims.

The trouble with this whole torture issue is - nothing can be conclusively proven because both the acts of interrogation and the information gained are entirely shrouded in secrecy, so some of us are okay following the foundation, laws, treaties and science of the issue. You are offering nothing other than your say so in reply. Ah, I get it, you are really Vice Presidnt Cheney trolling the boards. Thanks for the hint.

[Gibbsisgod2006]

Can you give me a hint here of what specifically in my post you are talking about?

Okay, at least three people have given you a conflicting viewpoint, and all you are doing is recycling your argument and refuting their claims.

The trouble with this whole torture issue is - nothing can be conclusively proven because both the acts of interrogation and the information gained are entirely shrouded in secrecy, so some of us are okay following the foundation, laws, treaties and science of the issue. You are offering nothing other than your say so in reply. Ah, I get it, you are really Vice Presidnt Cheney trolling the boards. Thanks for the hint.

Torture has been proven very valuable in gathering intel. I wish I could give you examples but I would lose my job.

[brianm23]

Uh, because you should respect the office of the president.

No. No. No. **** that. George Bush is a murder. He didn't pull the trigger, but he sure ordered other people to do it. The invasion of Iraq is proof and point. He knowingly invaded a country without ANY evidence of wrong doing and has caused thousands upon thousands of deaths by US soldiers and Iraqi civilians.

He's broken laws that have existed in this country for ages (illegal wiretapping, torture, etc). He's a ****ing common criminal and should be tried and convicted of his crimes.

You want me to respect that all because the American people voted him in? Are you ****ing serious? Hold your breath on that one as I'll call him George if I ever see him. He doesn't deserve the title Mr. President in my book.

[brianm23]

Torture has been proven very valuable in gathering intel. I wish I could give you examples but I would lose my job.

I assume this is a joke. If not, you surely don't believe in the Constitution or have any respect for the rights and freedoms of Americans. I suggest you go serve China with that mindset.

[Gibbsisgod2006]

I assume this is a joke. If not, you surely don't believe in the Constitution or have any respect for the rights and freedoms of Americans. I suggest you go serve China with that mindset.

I do have respect for the constitution I respect the right and freedoms of Americans but not TERRORISTS.

[brianm23]

I do have respect for the constitution I respect the right and freedoms of Americans but not TERRORISTS.

Trial by Jury? Apparently you don't give a **** about the Constitution or at least only when it benefits something you want.

It's people like you that make this nation a loose cannon.

[Gibbsisgod2006]

Trial by Jury? Apparently you don't give a **** about the Constitution or at least only when it benefits something you want.

It's people like you that make this nation a loose cannon.

Once they commit acts of terror against this country they lose that privilege. No it is people like you that make the US weak. I don't like it but sometimes it has be done to get what you need to protect our rights and this nations

[headexplode]

Trial by Jury? Apparently you don't give a **** about the Constitution or at least only when it benefits something you want.

It's people like you that make this nation a loose cannon.

Sounds like someone hasn't taken his medicinal marijuana today.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Once they commits acts of terror against this country they loose that previllage. No it is people like you that makes the US weak. I don't like it but sometimes it has be done to get what you need to protect our rights and this nations

Complete lack of understanding displayed here.

[Gibbsisgod2006]

Complete lack of understanding displayed here.

I guess I don't understand.