Sarge Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 fan, I couldn't disagree more. What you have just posted which seems to allow no room for discent, change, evolution, new ideas... Burgold, I don't think anyone has a problem with dissent. What people have a problem with is that people that who protested the war didn't have the decency to shut the fu(k up once policy was initiated adn the shooting started. That is EXACTLY what has been happening for years. The majority doesnt agree with the opinions and rantings and lies spewed by Maines, Moore, Sarandon et al; but for years they have remained silent. Not any more. Bingo, Kilmer. And now that the mainstream majority is finally finding a voice, their views are "PC". These people have gotten a pass for far too long, but they actually deluded themselves into thinking their views were mainstream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 It's not American to walk around town at a war protest with a sign that says "We support our tropps when they shoot their officers". I'll keep going, if you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Burgold...I think you are confusing your own reflection in the mirror and those of your friends...who are no doubt great Americans even if opposed to the war....and the folks I'm talking about......watch the ANSWER people sometime....listen to the rhetoric....these people really do think they live in a repressive, rascist, economically unjust, immoral country......there is no doubt in my mind that they hate the existing political-economy and desire radical change.........they are anti-American...this isn't some nice college protest by folks who aren't respsonsible for anything or hoping to get laid....I'm talking about people with an ideology who truly hate what this country is, the peopl who lead it, and those who succeed in it........... also...I was very careful to seed the thought on progressives in my previous post........they also dislike much of what they see....but strike me as wanting to preserve the system, the culture, etc....while moving folks to favor their chosenb caues be it the environment, health care, etc., in a manner that recognizes tradeoffs are going to be made to achieve ends..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by fansince62 these people really do think they live in a repressive, rascist, economically unjust, immoral country......there is no doubt in my mind that they hate the existing political-economy and desire radical change.........they are anti-American... isn't this why we have the right to vote? when we want change we work to make it so by electing people that share common beliefs. you must use the pre-arranged legal avenues to make this change though... just because these people want change that isn't supported by the two parties that represent the 300+million Americans doesn't make them un-American. it makes them extra-American in my book. they have the conviction to stand by their ideals when being bashed by the left, right, and centrists. of course they could just leave the country, but then they are just weak, spineless quitters who gave up on the idea of america being a true democracy. i guess if all these people turn out to be KGB or something then this would change things, but if they just happen to americans with differing opinions.... then that is what they are. the beauty of america-- freedom of expression. the melting pot still has a few lumps left in it thankfully. this thread was about the dixie chicks-- they will sell-out every seat on the tour... make hundreds of thousands of fans incredibly happy for their performance... earn sh*t-loads of money doing so. i really think the majority of their fans care more about the experience of seeing them in concert than remarks they said about Bush (release 2.0) during the short-lived war. more people agree with natalie means' remarks than people would like the think. the remarks were untimely and cowardly, but represent the views of millions. maybe those people will end up buying the tickets not wanted by the ex-chix fans... a question: if a member of your favorite professional sports team (redskins) made similar remarks would you boycott them? not go to any more games? not watch them on tv? is their political opinion that important to you? is the view of one member of a team (or group) important enough for you to disregard the opinions of all the other members of said team? just curious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 more people agree with natalie means' remarks than people would like the think. You can keep telling yourself that, but the polls and the proof says the exact opposite. Michael Moore would be proud of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 i am not talking about michael moore and am not suggesting that a majority of the population dislikes the president. there is a segment of the country (which includes millions of people) that don't like Bush for whatever reason. you can start with those who voted Gore and didn't win... myself excluded. while all of them might not dislike bush on a personal or political level are you gonna tell me that they all love bush? that is an idiotic statement.... along the lines of saddam receives 100% of the vote last election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Sorry to pounce, but that's different than what you posted. Who said anything about love as well? The fact (supported by the polls) show that more than 70 percent of Americans approve of the job he's doing. That alone is the basis for judging his appeal. As for whether I would support a team if a player made remarks. I hated Deion, but rooted for the team. So I can distinguish between the two entities. If a favorite individual sport participant (Fred Couples ie) made a comment like that, YES, I would stop rooting for,supporting, or paying to see him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 so 30% disapprove then (or are neutral)... that has to be more than you were expecting. isn't that what i posted and what you quoted? and disregard love, change to support. doesn't really change anything though. i am not gonna say all these people would side with natalie means, but all i have heard is from those who bash her. "they are gonna lose so much money. no one is gonna go to their concerts. everyone is gonna boycott them." for a few days people burned a couple of cd's... not much has happened since then... there are gonna be people that agree with her politically and those that don't really give a sh*t. agreed on deion. he is and always will be a bi*ch in my book but he never stopped me from loving the skins. nor will any player whose beliefs differ from my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Actually it's right about where I think it should be. There are 25 percent of people that will hate Bush and the GOP regardless of the policy. Diehard anti-Bush liberals. (The same exist on the GOP side) So it's not too much of a stretch to see that out of the 50 percent of the country that makes opinions based on events and not on toeing party lines, 40-10 approve of Bush. Yes that's millions, but I would guess that there are millions that still believe the earth is flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratoman Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by Burgold I really find this "disagree with the President you hate the country" logic disturbing. Love shouldn't be blind, you know. Glad you guys weren't around in the days of the first George we disagreed with... King Geroge III. I agree, I couldn't stand Clinton but I love my country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Exactly, Stratoman. Funny, you know what first colored my opinion of Clinton. It was the first day after his inauguration. I picked up the Washington Post and read the banner headline. It read, "Why the Clinton Administration is Failing." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Kilmer, During the war, approval for the war was just over 60% not 70%. Atleast that was the case in poll after Gallup poll reported on the WP and NYtimes (though not conducted by them). I wonder if not finding any WMD might have changed anyone's mind. I also suspect there are people out there who hate that the first 2 big contracts went to oil companies with huge political ties including Cheaney's old company. Oh and let's not forget that they were awarded without going through competetive bids like other government contracts (stupid stupid stupid). I haven't seen a recent poll, but it's not crazy to me to think the numbers in favor of the war may have gotten worse. Keep in mind, I've been fairly consistantly in favor of the war before you say I just want to believe people don't want the war. In fact, I cringe now more than ever, because my fear all along was that we would go to war and not stay long enough to make things any better. I've expressed that worry from time before the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 AJ... 1) You're making assumptions based on human psychology that I doubt you are qualified by training or statistics to support. I know lots of folks who have ceased to purchase Dixie Chick albums/cds and have chucked out what they previously bought. boycotts can have an impact - otherwise the left wouldn't resort to them so often as their tactic of choice.......riddle me this.....if Means were to make another anti-American statement would the Chicks survive it? don't forget....entertainment is a "fungible" good...there are alternatives for the consumer dollar/disposable income 2) The notion of freedopm of speech that is being spoon-fed to us on this board is arrant.....*rap.........there is a profound difference between expressing an opinion and the ends implied in the expression of that speech. who do many of you on this board think you are kidding? are you so niaive in your relativism that for you all speech is detached form real ends, real means, real power? listen to what these folks are saying - they are not interested in freedom of speech....thery are not interested in democracy...they are interested in power....they are interested in controlling the means of production....they are intersted in radical changes in the distribution of power and resources........in order for them to succeed they have to control the levers of power....you seem to imply that even if they achieve this power by manipulating undereducated illegal immigrants, promulgating dishonest polemics, employing emotionally charged rhetoric so achieve tallies at the voting booth - it's ok....I say that there are others who will fight these people when the threat grows serious enough.......if change is considered a good, then it better be by progressive means that preserve the broad details of the system while moving us all toward some SHARED notion of just outcomes.........the ANSWER folks (and their soulmates) have something very different mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 gbear, the polls after the first week were all over 70%. After the initial "oh god it's another vietnam" syndrome ended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Truth is, we won't know if the war is right for at least ten years. Long ago when we were funding Bin Laden and Sadam and gave them the tools to become what they were/are, the conservatives who did so believed that they were right. There was pretty good approval in the enemy of my enemy approach too. In the 1800's the majority of people believed certain things about the shape and density of an atom. Turns out they were wrong. If only the consenting opinion is heard constructive progress is never made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 gbear, the polls after the first week were all over 70%. After the initial "oh god it's another vietnam" syndrome ended. I can't speak for every poll, but I took part in one by phone call to my house and the question was "do you support the troops" and I said that I did, so I am included in that "70%" of war supporters in that poll... The truth is that polls are manipulated by the way the questions are asked and can get a person to be on the opposite side of the end result. just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 I dont think anyone here disagrees with the assertion that polls can be manipulated. But lacking a better source of info, we're stuck using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 I dont think anyone here disagrees with the assertion that polls can be manipulated. But lacking a better source of info, we're stuck using them. I agree.. I was just pointing that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Originally posted by Skins56 Plus remember, their fan base isn't exactly made up of rocket scientists. Funny you should say that. My wife's a big fan and... she's a rocket scientist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 solilo....first funny thing I have heard all day!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 A point to remember, My wife is a big Chix with Dix fan... my wife is against the war, but only in the sense that her brothers are both over there and she doesn't want anything to happen to them, other than that, she is Un-Political... meaning she could care less either way. The majority of people that I know are not very political. They support the war because that's the "American" thing to say or the are against it because the only want peace... but beyond that, they don't know much and don't care to... I would venture to say, that's how the majority of the nation thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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