TennesseeCarl Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 I guess today is Victory in Iraq Day. Like many, I've been glued to the t.v. night after night, mesmerized by the coverage. For what it's worth, a few thoughts... 1. I didn't think this war was necessary in the sense that Saddam posed a threat to us. I still don't. Nonetheless, I'm mighty proud of the manner in which our military conducted itself in both skill and decorum. 2. Those same throngs in the streets of Baghdad would be beating their shoes on pictures of George Bush and whipping American P.O.W.s if the war were going the other way. Let's not get too maudlin over their affection. 3. Fashioning any sort of post-war government not dominated by fundamentalists will be difficult. If I'm not mistaken, one of the precepts of Islam is not to live under a government that's not Islamic. These folks do not share any of our values about free speech...free religion...free assembly. 4. The entire Arab world - and I specifically include our dear ally, Saudi Arabia - hates our guts and would love to see a few more Osama bin Ladens out there, heaving rocks at us. 5. Those images of Iraqi kids kissing our troops and Iraqi women giving our G.I.s flower make me feel good - proud to be an American. And I don't believe for a minute that Arab t.v. will be showing those images to their people. 6. Our presence in the Middle East is getting pretty outlandish. Where all do we have troops now? Kuwait...Qatar...Iraq...Afghanistan...some in Saudi Arabia...some in Yemen..some in Pakistan...some in Turkey. I hope there's some limit. 7. For whatever reason, pan-Arabists cannot grasp the concept that just because someone opposes the U.S. does not make them noble. 8. Because those same pan-Arabists live in nations with media that's so skewed against the U.S., they are astonished when they find out we cut through Iraq's military - a force they feared - like crap through a goose. We are not dealing with adversaries who have a rational view of the world. This makes dealing with these folks difficult, as their actions are based on bizzarely-incorrect views of the U.S. Jeez...I'm not sure why I'm writing this....just wanted to pontificate a bit. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Good post, I tend to agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 Well said. I agree with everything 'cept numero uno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cskin Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 I have a question. If we care for and safeguard Israel like a big brother to his little sister, at what point do we allow them to make decisions and make "life mistakes" on their own? I ask because I too am appalled by the number of troops we have in the Middle Eastern Region. Might we be best served to pull out of the area as a show of faith, and allow them to solve their own problems.....the same ones they've been trying to solve since the beginning of time? I myself have grown tired of my hard earned tax dollars going to prop up the economy of Israel, giving them the means to buy state of the art weapons and technology to defend themselves. Shouldn't they be capable of taking care of themselves at this point? The Palestinian conflict is incredibly complex, but in the end it takes to parties capable of creating peace for it to work. To this point, it appears neither are capable of stopping the violence long enough for negotiation and peace to occur. At what point do we just allow "suvival of the fittest" and nature's laws to take their course? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 I disagree with your #2. Today is the first day in decades that the Iraqies have been able to say what they want to say. If there were to come out and agree with us or be against Sadam then they would be killed. These people are so happy for what we did that none of us will ever know how it feels.The scene today was very similiar to when Paris was free in 1944. This war was necessary because of a couple of things: 1. Sadam hated us and was working with others, and yes he does have WMD. 2. This sends a message to countries in the Middle East and to North Korea, that you do not want to mess with us at all, especially to all of these countries that are helping terrorists. Hopefully they get smart and go after the terrosists themselves. Pakistan has done an incredible job in rounding terrorists. 3. The only way we will ever have a "Peaceful" world is to oust Dictators such as Sadam. The UN should have had the guts do this earlier, he has killed and tortured thousands and treated his people like dirt for so many years. 4. In the long run this will look good on the US in the Middle East, and might be the start to creating the Palestine State. If this changes the mind of some of the Middle East countries then it is a huge win. 5. I hope all the ignorant people who all along thought this was about OIL, I would love to hear what they think now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gridironmike Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 Wow, a lot to swallow. Maybe with a choice, they wouldn't all choose to be Islamic. Far-fetched maybe, but freedom is a powerful thing. This is a short reply to a well-thought-out post, but I hope the lure of freedom provides these people with some incentive to break from the norm and try something different, including form of government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SkinsHokie Fan Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 This is a great day for us Muslims. I had tears watching those statues fall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 2. Those same throngs in the streets of Baghdad would be beating their shoes on pictures of George Bush and whipping American P.O.W.s if the war were going the other way. Let's not get too maudlin over their affection. This is only partly true. Yes, if the situation were reversed there would be Iraqis in the streets doing as you say to pics of Pres. Bush and burning American flags and such. However, the difference is they'd be doing so under the watchful eyes of Saddam's thugs. The demonstrations of hatred of Saddam we've witnessed have been fully spontaneous. There's a big difference. As for your point #3 there is no problem within Islam regarding living under non-Muslim rule. For once, try to seperate the tenets of Islam from the totally unIslamic paterns of the regimes of the Middle East. Rather, it has been the rule of Middle Eastern despots who either were rewarded with their rule for doing favors for western powers (like the Al-Saud royal family), have been supported despite their abysmal human rights records (like the Mubarak regime and the former Shah of Iran) or just plain old took power like Saddam did who have shaped the current state of affairs as it regards the lack of personal freedoms in the Middle East....NOT the faith that the people adhere to. Iraq has a chance to be something unique in the Middle East, an Arab democracy. For the sake of the Iraqi people, I hope it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins24 Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 I have a question. If we care for and safeguard Israel like a big brother to his little sister, at what point do we allow them to make decisions and make "life mistakes" on their own? ?? Isreal does make it's decision's on it's own. Of course some things, we have to step in for. If we didn't Isreal would be about 50 times bigger than it is today. People from Egypt to Iraq would be speaking Hebrew right now.... Let's say that the countries which surround Isreal and hate Isreal with a passion decide one day to attack it. After a while it becomes too much for Isreal, they call on us to help. Are you saying that we shouldn't help our only true allies in that area?? We should just "allow "suvival of the fittest" and nature's laws to take their course"??? Now why would anyone in their right mind allow that to happen? Don't be ridiculous. If we pulled every troop in the region out today, would that make the hate go away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gmac61 Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 I disagree with your #2. Today is the first day in decades that the Iraqies have been able to say what they want to say. If there were to come out and agree with us or be against Sadam then they would be killed. These people are so happy for what we did that none of us will ever know how it feels.The scene today was very similiar to when Paris was free in 1944. This war was necessary because of a couple of things: 1. Sadam hated us and was working with others, and yes he does have WMD. 2. This sends a message to countries in the Middle East and to North Korea, that you do not want to mess with us at all, especially to all of these countries that are helping terrorists. Hopefully they get smart and go after the terrosists themselves. Pakistan has done an incredible job in rounding terrorists. 3. The only way we will ever have a "Peaceful" world is to oust Dictators such as Sadam. The UN should have had the guts do this earlier, he has killed and tortured thousands and treated his people like dirt for so many years. 4. In the long run this will look good on the US in the Middle East, and might be the start to creating the Palestine State. If this changes the mind of some of the Middle East countries then it is a huge win. 5. I hope all the ignorant people who all along thought this was about OIL, I would love to hear what they think now. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just a few thoughts on your points : 1. The jury is still out on these points. Al-Qaida may have had operatives in Iraq, but any real connection between Sadam's government and Bin Laden's terrorist network is unproven. Same for WMD. The fact that no bio or chem weapons have been used makes it harder to beleive they had any real quantities of them. There's no way to say this war was unaviodable and it remains to be seen whether we've made ourselves any safer. 2. You may be right here, but it begs the question how these countries will react to their new found respect for our power. Will they decide accelerating their own WMD programs is a necessity? 3. Well, I am in the military. I for one DO NOT want to be the global Superman trying to save the day. The people in these countries must find their own way, just as we did. It is also worth remembering that we supported and embraced Sadam as a valued friend while he did what we wanted (i.e. fighting Iran). And he is by no means the only ruthless dictator we have propped up for our own purposes. I bring this up only because we need to always watch who we call friend. 4. Will this look good in the Middle East? As usual, this will draw mixed opinion and ultimately probably settle nothing. 5. Not just about oil, but it plays heavily into the equation. After all, we only care about the Middle East because of the oil. All you have to do is look at other troubled areas (Africa for one) and look at our policies to see that. So what does this all boil down to: 1. We got the Iraqis out from under a brutal dictator and are giving them a golden opportunity. Whether we did any good will hinge on how the Iraqis play this out. Sadam is gone, but even a passing knowledge of history will tell you that things could easily end up worse than before. 2. This action in Iraq has probably done little to protect us from future terrorism. Our ports and borders are still open to easy transit and that is something that needs to be more aggressively addressed. 3. Dealing with North Korea will always be a tougher issue since the Chinese will be involved. Having to deal with another legitimate superpower will make the rules a little harder to dictate. 4. As Americans, we should always applaud well thought out opposing points of view. Disagreeing with someone's politics doesn't make them evil. Opposing a President's point of view is not treason. That being said, I do feel it's wrong to openly criticize our leaders abroad. If you have something to say, say it here where it can do some good. The English or Canadians don't elect our leaders. Well, thanks for the time (as I step off the soapbox...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 It would go a long way towards robbing Al Quaeda of one of its biggest issues if we removed our troops from Saudi soil, and victory in Iraq gives us the perfect pretense for doing so. Iraqis are among the more educated, middle class people in the middle east, but Iraq also has enormous ethnic/religious differences. A Swiss style democracy that gives various regions significant autonomy while protecting the irghts of those in the minority in each region, with some kind of power sharing accord in the federal government is what we need to hope for. Let's just hope we can temper Shiite and Kurdish desires for revenge killings. Pre-PLO Lebanon gives us some clue as to how such a society can prosper peacefully, as well as letting us know potential pitfalls to be avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golgo-13 Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 I think Turkey is a good example of where Iraq should hopefully be headed. Turkey is an almost exclusively Muslim country, however, they have managed to achieve recent success as a democratic state. I realize there are significant cultural differences between the Turks and the Persians, but they have shown us that it can be done. I am very concerned about what the future hold in Iraq because I think it will be a deciding factor in how things go in the middle east. Only time will tell I guess.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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