American Peace Activist Shot in West Bank

[stratoman]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=514&e=7&u=/ap/20030405/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_american_shot_5

American Peace Activist Shot in West Bank

2 hours, 43 minutes ago Add Top Stories - AP to My Yahoo!

JERUSALEM - An American peace activist working as a human shield in the West Bank was seriously wounded on Saturday when Israeli troops allegedly opened fire on him.

Brian Avery, 24, from Albuquerque, N.M., heard shots fired and came out of his apartment building in Jenin to investigate just as an armored personnel carrier rounded a corner, said Tobias Karlsson, a fellow activist from Sweden.

Both Avery and Karlsson are members of the Palestinian-backed group International Solidarity Movement.

"We had our hands up and we were wearing vests that clearly identified us as international workers when they began firing," Tobias said. "Brian was shot in the face, and it looks like he was hit by a heavy caliber bullet because of the extent of the wound."

Avery was taken to a Jenin hospital but will be transferred to an Israeli hospital. There was no immediate comment from the army.

Tobias said he, Avery and a Palestinian medical worker not with the group were approached slowly by the troops and stood with their hands up for about 10 minutes. There was no communication with the soldiers, who Tobias says fired unprovoked.

Avery was semiconscious when taken in the ambulance, Tobias said. There were few Palestinians on the streets Saturday because of a curfew Israeli troops were enforcing.

Another American member of the group was killed on March 16 while trying to stop an Israeli military bulldozer in the Gaza Strip (news - web sites). She fell in front of the machine, which ran over her and then backed up, witnesses said.

Israeli officials are still investigating the bulldozer incident that killed 23-year-old Rachel Corrie, a student at The Evergreen State College in Olympia, Wash.

I guess birds of a feather flock together.

[Mad Mike]

Somone please tell me again how the Israelis are only targeting terrorists.

Contrast the way we treat civilians, the way we try to show respect, the way we try to provide humanitarian aid.

I keep hearing about how Israel is a valued ally, So how does it work? We give them 8 Billion a year in aid and what do we get in return? Hatred by association of a billion Muslims for our seeming condonement of their brutality. We need to tell them that this kind of sh!t must stop or they don't get a dime. Maybe then the PLO and the arab world will trust us enough to give peace a chance.

[stratoman]

just maybe, just maybe the stupid $hit American Protestors need to stay their a$$es at home sip there lattes, do their bong hits, peirce their body parts and stop putting theirselves in harms way!! :gus: :gus:

[Mad Mike]

Originally posted by stratoman

just maybe, just maybe the stupid $hit American Protestors need to stay their a$$es at home sip there lattes, do their bong hits, peirce their body parts and stop putting theirselves in harms way!! :gus: :gus:

And just what does that have to do with Israeli soldeirs shooting unarmed civilians? This is NOT an isolated incident. Ive seen video of the Israelis shooting at a news crew in a clearly marked SUV. Maybe they should stop reporting the news there too?

Get your head out of your @ss. It's bullsh!t behavior and it MUST STOP.

[Guest SkinsHokie Fan]

Damnit Isreal cannot be allowed to shoot AMERICAN CITIZENS. If this was ANY OTHER country we would be outraged at this. That government is so stupid and brutal

[stratoman]

Originally posted by Mad Mike

And just what does that have to do with Israeli soldeirs shooting unarmed civilians? This is NOT an isolated incident. Ive seen video of the Israelis shooting at a news crew in a clearly marked SUV. Maybe they should stop reporting the news there too?

Get your head out of your @ss. It's bullsh!t behavior and it MUST STOP.

so I guess ok for the Palestinians to kill innocent civilians including Americans!! Why don't you get your head out of the Palestinian's a$$ you have it up!! :doh:

[Blade]

Mike and Hokie,

Your rapid willingness to condemn Israel for something about which you have absolutely NO CLUE regarding the details is no different than the the Iraqi people believing Sadam Hussein when he says "We have mutilated the Americans at the airport!"

If you are that ready to be lead about by the nose by a nameless AP reporter then you are either looking for reasons to condemn the Israelis or you are just plain weak-minded.

Id hate to think that either are true, but until you have the story told by sources with biases both for and against Israel, then you dont have a clue about what really happened.

Remember that Israel is the ONLY democracy in the Middle East, and a country that is dealing with terrorist strikes against its children EVERY DAY.

The REAL bullsht is that they have to put up with imbeciles like these 'peace activists' getting in thier way of tracking down those guilty of terrorism against their people.

So, until you have the whole story, I suggest you take stratoman's advice.

[stratoman]

Originally posted by Blade

Mike and Hokie,

So, until you have the whole story, I suggest you take stratoman's advice.

[Mad Mike]

Originally posted by Blade

Mike and Hokie,

Your rapid willingness to condemn Israel for something about which you have absolutely NO CLUE regarding the details is no different than the the Iraqi people believing Sadam Hussein when he says "We have mutilated the Americans at the airport!"

If you are that ready to be lead about by the nose by a nameless AP reporter then you are either looking for reasons to condemn the Israelis or you are just plain weak-minded.

Id hate to think that either are true, but until you have the story told by sources with biases both for and against Israel, then you dont have a clue about what really happened.

Remember that Israel is the ONLY democracy in the Middle East, and a country that is dealing with terrorist strikes against its children EVERY DAY.

The REAL bullsht is that they have to put up with imbeciles like these 'peace activists' getting in thier way of tracking down those guilty of terrorism against their people.

So, until you have the whole story, I suggest you take stratoman's advice.

And you have what info to say this did not happen as told?

Let me answer for you. NONE. So it's OK for you to ASSUME everything is A OK in contradiction to a published news story?

I KNOW what I saw when I saw the video of Israeli soldeirs firing on a CNN vehicle. That thing was clearly marked and if it were not armored the news crew would have been dead.

Don't presume to tell me anything. I know the facts and I have said HUNDREDS of times on this board that I DO NOT CONDONE TERRORISTS in any way, shape or form. But in case your mommy didn't tell you TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT.

[Mad Mike]

Originally posted by stratoman

so I guess ok for the Palestinians to kill innocent civilians including Americans!! Why don't you get your head out of the Palestinian's a$$ you have it up!! :doh:

NEVER assume anything. You just end up making an @ss of yourself.

Did I say its OK for the Palestinians to kill innocents? DID I? NO I DID NOT. :jerkoff:

[Mad Mike]

Educate yourselves.

http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

* We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.

* We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.

* We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.

* We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.

* We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.

* We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.

* We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.

* We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.

* The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.

[Blade]

Originally posted by Mad Mike

And you have what info to say this did not happen as told?

Let me answer for you. NONE. So it's OK for you to ASSUME everything is A OK in contradiction to a published news story?

Like you, I have not read any other articles about this from any other source. Therefore, I have no idea what really happened.

Just like you don't.

But I am not the one trying to claim moral superiority over the Israelis. You are.

The only one ASSUMING ANYTHING is you... you are assuming that there is no good reason why the Israelis shot this person. All I have said is that you should get both sides of the story.

Considering your ASSUMPTION that you "know the facts", you remind me of one of the many kids I know who grew up being taught that "Jew" is a dirty word. And, now that the media is extremely anti-israeli, you are getting some vidication for your long-repressed anti-semitism.

I KNOW what I saw when I saw the video of Israeli soldeirs firing on a CNN vehicle. That thing was clearly marked and if it were not armored the news crew would have been dead.

Did anyone say where the vehicle was driving, and when? Was it during curfew? Was it in a restricted area? Considering that the Israelis have been tricked in numerous ways by terrorists, if the CNN car was in ANY WAY violating ANY military restriction, then they deserve to be shot at. Terrorists have been dressed up as **anything** (including priests, reporters, orthodox jews, etc...) to get into a crowd of Israeli children and civilians, and then blow up everything into cornbeef. I wont bother asking you to imagine living under such circumstances, since you really dont give a crap about the Israeli perspective... but perhaps if you imagined living under such circumstances in America, you would be a bit more willing to hear the details from more than one nameless reporter with an unknown agenda.

But since you've made your agenda quite clear, no one who desires a balanced perspective will give any credence to your shrill, biased voice on this issue.

I suggest you look up a fellow named Kefka who posted with a similar shrill voice, and see where things ended with him.

[Mad Mike]

And, now that the media is extremely anti-israeli, you are getting some vidication for your long-repressed anti-semitism.

Who the FVCK are you to call me anti-semitic?

Do you know me? NO. Newsflash. I have ZERO anti-semitism repressed or otherwise. Although not Jewish I spent a summer at a Jewish community center, learning about the religion and culture and singing the songs as a kid and I loved it. So who is making the assumptions here?

You make stupid comparisons by equating AP with the Iraqi news minister, dissmiss a news story from an established and respected news source and tell ME, that I am making assumptions?

Here's a suggestion, think twice before pinning a lable on somone you do not know. Or if that is the best argument you have, shut up.

BTW, are those Israeli soldiers who dissagree with how Israel is handling the situation anti-semitic as well?

I happen to believe that the best thing Israel can do for it's own security and for the good of the world is to kill every terrorist it can lay hands on AND allow Pallestinian civilians to live in the same peace, security and dignity that they themselves want. Or is that too much to ask?

If this get's me banned then so be it. I have my morals and I will not be labled or shouted down by you or anyone else.

[Blade]

Originally posted by Mad Mike

Who the FVCK are you to call me anti-semitic?

Me? I am the guy who pays the bills to keep this place around for you and everyone else to enjoy. And part of the reason that people continue to come here is that they want a place where they can TRY to get a balanced perspective on the Redskins, or in the Tailgate, on anything else. While the board may lean more heavily to the right on many issues than the center, one thing that has remained consistent is that we've ALWAYS insisted on people backing up thier statements with more than hearsay and opinion. Backing things up means at least ATTEMPTING to get balanced perspective on a subject.

Something that you have no interest in doing, and something that will get your arse banned from the Tailgate if you dont get smart real fast.

The AP is no more an unbiased news source, than the Iraqi News Service, Al-Jazeera, CNN, Fox News, the LA Times, etc...

The fact is that THEY ALL HAVE THIER OWN BIASES, which is the whole point of my entrance into this thread. You obviously have your own agenda on this subject, and I can tell you right now that I will NOT tolerate that agenda being propogated here.

Perhaps if you bone up on your reading comprehension, you'll see that I did NOT call you anti-semetic. I just said that your words reminded me of the many lazy twits out there who gleefully accept anything anti-israeli as justification for thier own repressed anti-semitism. However, if the shoe fits you, then feel free to wear it. You're not making a very good case against it at the moment.

For you to say such moronic things as "We give them 8 Billion a year in aid and what do we get in return? Hatred by association of a billion Muslims for our seeming condonement of their brutality..." makes it obvious that you have taken NO TIME AT ALL to educate yourself on the long history of war being brought upon Israel by its Arab neighbors for doing nothing but attempting to live in peace. If you think the Moslem world hates the USA because we support Israel, then you are probably just too stupid to waste any more of the cyberspace purchased by myself and those who have entrusted me with thier contributions.

Israel won its independence as a Jewish state in 1948. Do even know how many Arab countries today officially acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and have officially halted thier declared war upon Israel?

The website you cite above demonstrates BEAUTIFULLY the EXACT reason why we support Israel. Because they have THE ONLY DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST where its citizens are free to exercise civil disobedience and debate the moral implications of its government. I am proud that my tax money is helping to make this happen in Israel, that the democracy is WORKING, and that healthy debate is being exercized.

Unfortunately, the bias of the 60 Minutes Report from your website did not really give time to those who still favor keeping and protecting the Jewish settlements on the West Bank and Gaza. This perspective would certainly help everyone have a more balanced perspective on this issue.

[Blade]

Mad Mike wrote:

Do you know me? NO. Newsflash. I have ZERO anti-semitism repressed or otherwise. Although not Jewish I spent a summer at a Jewish community center, learning about the religion and culture and singing the songs as a kid and I loved it. So who is making the assumptions here?

Thats great Mike. You lived among Jews for a summer as a kid, and now you understand all the facts that surround living as an Israeli Jew in Israel. :doh:

Dude, one thing that is beyond assumption is that you are a shrill little twit who can not handle his lazy *** being told to educate himself on this subject.

You make stupid comparisons by equating AP with the Iraqi news minister, dissmiss a news story from an established and respected news source and tell ME, that I am making assumptions?

Respected by who? I dont respect what the AP says any more than I respect anything that Al-Jazeera says. Give me multiple perspectives on a subject as controversial as the middle east, and I will make my own opinions. I will NOT tolerate being force-fed only one perspective by a nameless AP reporter, and then have it fed to me as "fact" by some lazyass like you on my message board. You are so obviously clueless about Israel, the middle east, and the politics of both, that you dont make a good case for yourself being anything other than anti-semetic (or just plain stupid) on this issue. Showing me a website that celebrates Israel's democracy in action does nothing to justify your assinine statement about withdrawing US financial backing of Israel.

Here's a suggestion, think twice before pinning a lable on somone you do not know. Or if that is the best argument you have, shut up.

Thanks for the suggestion, Mike. Since you have shown yourself incapable of comprehending or arguing any point I have made on this subject, it's not me who should shutting his mouth.

BTW, are those Israeli soldiers who dissagree with how Israel is handling the situation anti-semitic as well?

No, they are Israeli citizens who think that ceasing the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza will solve Israel's problems with terrorism. An opinion that I, and many Israeli's, happen to disagree over. They are freely expressing thier opinions as citizens of a democracy. Something that no citizen of any other country in the Middle East can say.

But the Israelis LIVE the problems over there, and they know it 10,000 times better than you or I. And there certainly is no consensus over the right course of action among them, so it makes it even more important to understand both sides of the issues before making moronic statements like those that you have made.

I happen to believe that the best thing Israel can do for it's own security and for the good of the world is to kill every terrorist it can lay hands on AND allow Pallestinian civilians to live in the same peace, security and dignity that they themselves want. Or is that too much to ask?

It is too much to ask. Many of those same Palestinians who want to live in peace and security are the same ones who only want to live in such a way once Israel no longer exists. Otherwise, why would they cheer when Israel gets Scudded by Iraq and when the USA loses 5,000 civilians to terrorist attacks on the WTC? Or send thier children laden with explosives into Israel to blow up Israeli children? Or elect leadership that puts millions of dollars of aid into thier own bank accounts and does nothing to help its own people?

If there was such an easy answer, dont you think they would figured it out by now? Mike, please jump on a plane and head over there right now. I am sure that they would love to have your enourmous insight on this topic. Surely you can fix it.

If this get's me banned then so be it. I have my morals and I will not be labled or shouted down by you or anyone else.

If you consider it to be morally acceptable to under-educate yourself on highly emotionally charged issues, then spout off about them like you are some well informed expert, then I do have a problem with your morals. Furthermore, your rudeness, stupidity and laziness are problematic as well. These 3 qualities get more people banned from Extremeskins than anything else. Since you are so eager to join that club, I'll be more than happy to oblige.

Buh-bye. :kiss:

[stevea]

Blade,

I don't want to inumerate all of your points in this thread ... but I do want to say "WELL SAID".

Mad Mike,

I also don't know you ... and don't assume that you are anti-Semitic. But when I read your first comments in this thread I also judged them as being from someone who is either anti-Semitic or predisposed to thinking the Israelis are the bad guys.

The latter is not necessarily anti-Semitic. I'm married to a woman who fits that 2nd category. She worked for several years helping Palestinian and other Arabs in getting education in the U.S., along with other things. Her entire thought process on the Palestinian question has been poisoned; she's incapable of objective thought or analysis on the issue. For example, when the initial reports of a massacre at Jenin came out she was quick to believe them all. When Palestinian and U.N. sources concluded that there was no massacre ... that instead of 500 dead civilians there were a total of about 70 people killed and that most of them were combatents ... it was already 3 months later and too late to undue the emotional effects of the initial anti-Israeli propaganda.

Let me go a bit further about the case you mention.

I think any comparison to U.S. treatment of civilians in Iraq is unfair. The U.S. not only has an advantage in quality of equipment, but also has an advantage of quantity of armed forces members in all circumstances faced in Iraq. That makes an enormous difference.

Israel also has a qualitative advantage, but is at an unbelievable disadvantage in quantity. Though they go to great lengths to limit civilian casualties ... and personally if I were an Israeli voter I would vote to be more aggressive, not less ... they simply do not have the capability to protect civilians in their war against terrorism to the same degree as we can.

Finally, I don't think a voluntary "human shield" who stands in front of a terrorist's house to effectively say "you have to kill me if you want to destroy this terrorist's house" falls in the category of innocent civilian.

I know as we began the war against Iraq and heard the stories of voluntary "human shields" travelling to Iraq to interfere with our war effort ... I formed a very firm opinion that we should not be deterred from any of our military objectives by worrying about their lives. I still believe that to be the rational and moral conclusion ... and I also wouldn't want our military to incur greater risk for themselves by trying to avoid killing such shields.

Terrorism must be fought ... to refrain from the fight and not do everything in your power to kill the terrorists before they kill more of your population would be immoral, IMO ... and that goes for Israel as well as the U.S.

[Tarhog]

American's have only recently had any glimmer of experience living in the kind of fear the average Israeli lives. 9/11 was just a bump in the road compared to the percentages of Israelis killed by suicide bombers over the past several years. Were it American innocent men, women, and children getting blown up on the Metro, at Hard Rock Cafes and Starbucks, or outside the local elementary school, you'd hear no equivocating or see much moral hand-wringing over how best 'to handle' the situation. There would be holy hell to pay. Think about it. And we wouldn't be talking about negotiating over the legitimate beefs of those who were murdering our wives, brothers, and children. No American has any clue what its like to really live in fear every day of their life. Does this mean no atrocities have occured at the hands of Israeli forces? Of course not. But equating the sins of a terrorist who blows up cafe-goers to make a political point with an overly (perhaps) aggressive military force TRYING to uproot and destroy such murderers is pretty crazy logic. I think the bottom line is that until you renounce the innocent bombing of civilians, women, and children you don't get any consideration or quarter.

[panel]

To agree to be a human sheild, and expect to not be shot, is just stupid if you ask me. I mean, the name HUMAN SHEILD itself implies that your gonna get hit with somthing.

[AJWatson3]

not taking sides, just want to say that I read an incredible article on the Israeli situation and what they go through (in dealing with the threat against their civilians), and how they justify their actions. It was in Vanity Fair, I'll look for a link....

anybody else read the piece?

i read it on my way to the VT @ UMiami game, so it would be late 2002... actually jan 2003, if i remember correctly cameron diaz was on the cover.

[Burgold]

I won't say much, but I want to add to two of the thoughts expressed. First, given the fact that terrorists are civillians and not millitary in the usual sense how do you say Isreal should just get the terrorists and leave all the civillians in peace? How do you seperate them? They live and train in civillian houses. They build their bombs in civillian houses. They are fed and paid by civillian groups. Two, the article said that this was a human chain line advancing, but clearly labeled by clothing. As Die hard said, how is an Isreali soldier to know what their true purpose for advancing is? Palestinian terrorists are known for hiding guns or bombs while trying to look like innocents. Besides, if you read the article carefully what was interesting to me was that while it was about an American death, the American who was shot was being transported to an Isreali Hospital. The American death that was imbedded in the story was the one from last month. Placed in the story, though it's only a semi-parallel and placed in such a way as to inflame outrage. Isrealis have not been completely innocent in how they have dealt with their dilemma, but there is no innocent way to deal with the problem they have. The Palestinians have bombed on Holy Days, they have bombed holy places, they strike schools, discos, groceries, and every other place they can without any moral distinction as to women, children, civillian or millitary. The fact that you can get so upset and irate over one American death or two American deaths caused by Isrealis and ignore the hundreds of Americans killed in Isreal by Palestinians is shocking. Actually, it's not shocking which is what makes it really sad.

[Art]

One thing to possibly consider as well is when there's the sound of gun fire in an area, say, like Detroit, do you think people run to the door, jump outside and wonder what's up, or do you think they tuck and cover and wait for it to pass before running outside?

I ask this, and I could expand the answer. In Iraq, even now, we're dropping pamplets that tell the Iraqi civilians that we're not there to harm them, but, where they see American military, stay away because we might mistake them for a problem.

This story reads to me like the Israelis are engaged in a gun fight or military operation of some sort. They are pursuing people they are after. Instead of hunkering down and waiting to see what happened when the bullets stop flailing, this idiot kid ran outside. I'd have shot him too.

I'd have assumed, based on military rules of engagement that anyone running INTO a gun fight is a person to shoot. Even people wearing "international workers" uniforms because, you all do know that Palestinian terrorists don't actually wear an outfit with a big T-shirt reading, "I'm a terrorist" don't you?

Terrorists are dressing as civilians and attacking innocent Israelis. When the army moves forward, and someone runs outside, my first thought is, "Target, orange shirt." If you don't think that's precisely our rules of engagement in Iraq as well, you're kidding yourself. We are obviously not going to try to kill civilians, I think if we are rolling through the streets firing, and we round a corner, and three Red Cross workers ran out of a building in front of our tanks, we might pull the trigger first, before wondering if they were peaceful.

Given how the Israelis are forced to live due to the tactics of the Palestinian terrorists, I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt because, simply put, they don't target civilians. Civilians certainly die, but, remember a year ago when they went heavily into Jenin they refused to provide air cover so they could limit civilian casualties and this caused them to lose more soldiers than had they simply cleared the area.

I'm going to grant Israel wide latitude in dealing with the problem it is forced to deal with. Even if that means seeing an American die.

BTW, someone here wrote we'd be outraged if Americans were killed in any other country. I put a lot of blame on the people who are willing to place themselves in areas they have no business placing themselves. I think an "aid" worker who runs out into the streets during a gun fight probably needs to take a heavy portion of the blame for any injuries that happen to him. I think an "aid" worker who decides to sit in front of a military bulldozer deserves a great deal of the blame if she loses that game of chicken. Even if they are Americans, they need to display some common sense. You are IN A WAR ZONE. You are, further, in a war zone where the enemies don't wear uniforms. Innocents are going to die. And that doesn't even count the non-innocents who take on added risk like running into the fire fight.

[Guest SkinsHokie Fan]

Unlike 99.9999 percent of this board I have actually had the chance to walk through the occupied territories and go through the West Bank, Gaza and Ramallah. Until you see exactly what happens not through the lenses of the media or Isreali guides then you have no clue what the Isreali forces do and what their mission really is.

We responded the right way to Iraq and Osama Bin Laden. And I'll be damned if one of OUR soldiers were to ever shoot an Isreali peace activist in Iraq. But this is the second incident in a month of Isreali soldiers firing upon an AMERICAN CITIZEN. If America were to pull all of its aid out of Isreal that country would be overrun. Mabey they should think of that before shooting citizens from our country.

If we condemn Saddam Huessien (rightfully so because he is an evil ba$tard that needs to die) for WANTING TO KILL AMERICANS then we should condemn the Isreali government for ACTUALLY KILLING AMERICANS.

[stevea]

Originally posted by SkinsHokie Fan

Unlike 99.9999 percent of this board I have actually had the chance to walk through the occupied territories and go through the West Bank, Gaza and Ramallah. Until you see exactly what happens not through the lenses of the media or Isreali guides then you have no clue what the Isreali forces do and what their mission really is.

What a crock.

I've been to the West Bank, and also to Lebanon and Syria (including a Palestinian "camp"). The "lenses of the media" are overwhelmingly anti-Israeli; it is highly disengenuous of you to use that phrase in a way that implies the media is pro-Israeli. You clearly reveal your own bias when you use the phrase "occupied territories" casually, as if it were the only proper way to refer to Gaza and the West Bank.

Israel is in an impossible situation ... trying to live a day-to-day life with an enemy that refuses to end their state of war, refuses to negotiate a peace, refuses to stop terrorists operating out of their land, and pleads for AND RECEIVES worldwide sympathy for not having a fully controlled home of their own.

Americans would never put up with the cr@p that Israel does, and would not strive for so long to retain the moral high ground by bending over backwards in such an extreme way as to cost their own citizens' lives in order to limit civilian casualties in its war against terrorism.

[stratoman]

Originally posted by SkinsHokie Fan

I'll be damned if one of OUR soldiers were to ever shoot an Isreali peace activist in Iraq.

There wouldn't be any Isreali peace activists in Iraq.

[Omer]

Hey, I am living in Israel and I fill that I have to respond to this thread. Believe it or not, I am on the left side of the political map in Israel and my opinions are closer to Mike's more than the rest of the posters.

One of the problems of the American people is that they see everything in black and white. There is no bad and good in this conflict and there isn't right and wrong (but I am always right ).

Dealing with civilians is a large problem in the fight in terrorism.

I belive the israeli goverment is not willing to negotiate with the palestinians on the subject of peace agreement and the fault of the situation falls on both sides.

P.S I'm sorry about my bad English and I'm pretty sure I was misunderstood by some of you.