The final pukes' game should give worry puke fans...

[Bware_Dware]

and according to BigD, Crayton is the #2 :laugh:

So im gathering from your comment that because a Cowboys fan on a MB says Crayton is the teams true #2 than that is what the public and Cowboys FO must accept?

Crayton is the teams #3 receiver until 1) Glenn is formally dismissed from the organization and/or is injured again or the team claims Crayton as the teams #2. Yes he did fill in as the #2 last year, and did a pretty darn good job for the most part.

[Bware_Dware]

Care to even consider that Crayton had a fully healthy OL and QB all season?

This statement is false. There were injuries to both the OL and Romo sits to pee during the season, nothing too serious, but there were injuries.

[elkabong82]

So im gathering from your comment that because a Cowboys fan on a MB says Crayton is the teams true #2 than that is what the public and Cowboys FO must accept?

Crayton is the teams #3 receiver until 1) Glenn is formally dismissed from the organization and/or is injured again or the team claims Crayton as the teams #2. Yes he did fill in as the #2 last year, and did a pretty darn good job for the most part.

Until Glenn is released, or Crayton beats Glenn for the #2 spot in TC and preseason, as of RIGHT NOW, Crayton is the #3 WR. HOWEVER, if you are making a statistical comparison of Crayton to any other WR based on 2007, then you CANNOT say Crayton outperformed someone else as a #3 WR. His stats, your whole proof for the argument, is based upon his playing time as a #2 WR.

And yes, Crayton did put up good numbers as the #2 WR in 2007 in Dallas. I don't think anyone here denied that. They shouldn't anyways, as the stats say otherwise. Does that mean Crayton IS a solid #2 WR? We don't realistically know yet. ONE season isn't enough of a gauge. Only time will tell.

[elkabong82]

This statement is false. There were injuries to both the OL and Romo sits to pee during the season, nothing too serious, but there were injuries.

I'm sorry, how many games did Romo sits to pee or your starting O-linemen miss? You knew what my point was there, don't try to manipulate it. Since this is the only response I've gotten from you and your bretheren in here (outside of THA ) I'll assume you guys have conceded what I said is true (on Crayton).

[Bware_Dware]

Until Glenn is released, or Crayton beats Glenn for the #2 spot in TC and preseason, as of RIGHT NOW, Crayton is the #3 WR. HOWEVER, if you are making a statistical comparison of Crayton to any other WR based on 2007, then you CANNOT say Crayton outperformed someone else as a #3 WR. His stats, your whole proof for the argument, is based upon his playing time as a #2 WR.

And yes, Crayton did put up good numbers as the #2 WR in 2007 in Dallas. I don't think anyone here denied that. They shouldn't anyways, as the stats say otherwise. Does that mean Crayton IS a solid #2 WR? We don't realistically know yet. ONE season isn't enough of a gauge. Only time will tell.

I not once in this thread compared stats, I simply pointed out while you were talking about Moss's career numbers and such and relating him to crayton in an indirect way, I merely reminded you crayton is a #3 receiver. And yes, 1 season is nothing to judge on, we will have to see how he improves over the next few years.

[THEHEREAFTER]

1) You said Crayton outperformed Moss and El in '07. Outperformed includes more than just TDs, it includes receptions and yards. It is hypocracy, especially when you pick and choose where your proof does and does not apply, only to selfishly suit your own needs, rather than the truth.

What you quoted doesn't even suggest that I said "outperformed?" I said better #'s which obviously meant TD's. I only said this to demonstrate that Crayton had a solid season. The fact that Witten and Cooley were even introduced into this discussion is absolutely ludicrous. You guys falsely assumed my premise was that Witten had a superior season to Cooley to invalidate my statement about Crayton.

2) By your terminology, Cooley did outperform Witten, as he had more TDs on less receptions. You used that terminology to say Crayton outperformed Moss and El, but now you deny it when it isn't working for you. All of a sudden, those receptions and yards matter again.

The problem is I never said "outperformed." I simply said he had better #'s. If you want to say I should have specified td's then fine. I'm sure you understand the fact that Witten only had one less TD yet far better #'s than Cooley in other significant categories doesn't demonstrate a parallel here right? Not that these two should have even been introduced into the discussion.

3) It's not hatred, I just dislike when people try to manipulate stats to their own benefit, and then lie when they are called on it. Either Crayton did not out perform Moss and El if you look at yards and receptions as well as TDs,..., or Cooley outperformed Witten if you are only looking at TDs.

All nonsense. All I said was that Crayton had "better #'s" (ie TD's) to make a point which obviosly has been lost on you.

[Bware_Dware]

I'm sorry, how many games did Romo sits to pee or your starting O-linemen miss? You knew what my point was there, don't try to manipulate it. Since this is the only response I've gotten from you and your bretheren in here (outside of THA ) I'll assume you guys have conceded what I said is true (on Crayton).

Actually no I didnt know what your point was or I would not have posted that response, you said they did not have injuries, yet I remember throughout the season there were problems with injuries with the O-line and Romo sits to pee...

week 17...

Romo sits to pee - bruised thumb on throwing hand...

Gurode - out

Week 16-

Gurode- out

Columbo - Prob.

Week 15-

Columbo- Prob.

Week 14-

Columbo- Quest.

Week 12-

BIGG Davis - Prob. ankle

Week 11-

BIGG Davis - Quest. ankle...

Though nothing severe, there were linguring injuries to the line and Romo sits to pee....

[THEHEREAFTER]

See, you should have said this from the get-go. That is an accurate statement. Your #2 WR last season did outperform our #1 WR in terms of TDs.

This is what I meant but yes, you're right I should have been more specific.

BTW, I never argued your point that Crayton had a solid year. Dfitz quoted you as simply saying Crayton outperformed Moss, which in terms of overall stats is false.

Well considering Moss only had 11 more receptions, 300+ more yards, only 3td's and a lesser avg., one could atleast make an argument that he did "outperfom" Moss LAST YEAR however I only stated that he had better #'s in TD's.

And if you did argue TC gave the WRs a better shot, than you'd have to concede our WRs were hampered for the majority of the season. You guys do have a good OL, though it is overrated IMO. How does a center who can't snap well out of the shotgun make the probowl? But anyways, I was just listing a major impacting factor. You know as well as I how important OL is to the pass and run game. Losing the right side of your line essentially has a major impact on WR production.

I would give you that argument. I would agree that JC hampered your passing game all year. Ray Charles could see that TC came in and the passing game started clicking. Once again, Gurode snapped the ball over Romo sits to pee's head 3, count'em 3 times all year. I haven't done the math but I'm sure that works out to less than 1% of all shotgun snaps delivered all year. Why does the fact that Gurode is one of the best centers in the NFL bother you so much? Losing lineman certainly can hurt but doesn't keep EVERY WR out of the endzone for several weeks to begin a season nor does it prevent your top 2 receivers from catching more than 4 TD's all season. Sorry.

[elkabong82]

I not once in this thread compared stats, I simply pointed out while you were talking about Moss's career numbers and such and relating him to crayton in an indirect way, I merely reminded you crayton is a #3 receiver. And yes, 1 season is nothing to judge on, we will have to see how he improves over the next few years.

I didn't say you did compare stats. I simply as furthering my argument against those saying Crayton outperformed Moss as a #3 WR.

THA brought up Moss and Crayton is a direct comparison, not me. I simply refuted the point.

And I agreed with you that right now, on the depth chart, Crayton is a #3 WR.

[Bware_Dware]

I didn't say you did compare stats. I simply as furthering my argument against those saying Crayton outperformed Moss as a #3 WR.

THA brought up Moss and Crayton is a direct comparison, not me. I simply refuted the point.

And I agreed with you that right now, on the depth chart, Crayton is a #3 WR.

[elkabong82]

This is what I meant but yes, you're right I should have been more specific.

Well considering Moss only had 11 more receptions, 300+ more yards, only 3td's and a lesser avg., one could atleast make an argument that he did "outperfom" Moss LAST YEAR however I only stated that he had better #'s in TD's.

I would give you that argument. I would agree that JC hampered your passing game all year. Ray Charles could see that TC came in and the passing game started clicking. Once again, Gurode snapped the ball over Romo sits to pee's head 3, count'em 3 times all year. I haven't done the math but I'm sure that works out to less than 1% of all shotgun snaps delivered all year. Why does the fact that Gurode is one of the best centers in the NFL bother you so much? Losing lineman certainly can hurt but doesn't keep EVERY WR out of the endzone for several weeks to begin a season nor does it prevent your top 2 receivers from catching more than 4 TD's all season. Sorry.

1) Your terms of considering Crayton outperforming Moss a feasible argument can be directly applied to saying Cooley outperforming Witten is a feasible argument. You've since revised your statement to say Crayton had more TDs, but initially all you said was "outperform" which isn't true.

2) Gurode doesn't bother me so much, I just think he's overrated. Why do you have to act like anytime a Skin fan has an argument, it means something is bothering them? Just stick to the topic. We'll have to agree to disagree on Gurode's ranking among centers in the NFL. I'd def. say he is in the top half, but I myslef wouldn't say he is "one of the best".

3) When you're team only has succesful runs going to the left, and the QB is blindsided on the right side every game, causing his fumbles to skyrocket from the previous year, it is going to have an impact. I should also point out that El had several catches he took to the 1 yd line, only to be stopped just short of the endzone. Close doesn't cut it, yes, but it's not like they weren't even coming close. The WRs taking so long to score did suck though, but faults in the redzone don't automatically mean a WR with more TDs, but less yards and recepetions, is better, or outperformed them.

Injuries, system, coaching, etc. all play a factor. And even without WR TDs right away, the team was still compettive with the best in the NFL, save the Pats. That same WR group and QB who didn't connect in the endzone until later on, were able to come within one play in the final minutes of beating your team in their home. So maybe the WRs not getting TDs right away isn't as important as you are trying to make it be. The team still went 9-7, and still made the playoffs, despite the low TDs by WRs.

[elkabong82]

Actually no I didnt know what your point was or I would not have posted that response, you said they did not have injuries, yet I remember throughout the season there were problems with injuries with the O-line and Romo sits to pee...

week 17...

Romo sits to pee - bruised thumb on throwing hand...

Gurode - out

Week 16-

Gurode- out

Columbo - Prob.

Week 15-

Columbo- Prob.

Week 14-

Columbo- Quest.

Week 12-

BIGG Davis - Prob. ankle

Week 11-

BIGG Davis - Quest. ankle...

Though nothing severe, there were linguring injuries to the line and Romo sits to pee....

I didn't see Gurode missed 1 game, but if you are going to address someone, typically it helps if you actually know what they are talking about, lol.

THA and I were discussing WRs, and I said injuries to our OL impacted the production. That is a no brainer, and you know our RG and RT missed almost the entire season, where as the Boys didn't see the kind of injuries on their OL that would have severely impacted their game. You have been following along in this thread though, and you know how much more impacting the Skins OL injuries were than the Boys. You guys tell us to put the hatred aside, I would suggest you all do the same. I am not really bashing the Cowboys in here, so you can stop with the act that the Cowboys OL injuries were anywhere near as devastating as the Skins were.

[tr1]

Crayton is the teams #3 receiver until 1) Glenn is formally dismissed from the organization and/or is injured again or the team claims Crayton as the teams #2. Yes he did fill in as the #2 last year, and did a pretty darn good job for the most part.

We don't need convincing...talk to BigD.

:laugh:

[Birdlives]

The problem is I never said "outperformed." I simply said he had better #'s. If you want to say I should have specified td's then fine.

All nonsense. All I said was that Crayton had "better #'s" (ie TD's) to make a point which obviosly has been lost on you.

Crayton hasn't proved himself? His numbers last year were better than your #1 receiver.

Just quit tapdancing THA. Everyone knows what you said and has enough of a grasp of the english language to understand what the above statement means.

Had you meant TD's you would have said TD's. At least have enough backbone to admit what you said was wrong.

In all fairness, your comparing the Redskins #1 to the Cowboys #3 with stats. Ive always liked Santana and always felt he could never show his ability because of 1) inability to stay healthy all season 2) Lack of a supporting cast.

Same goes for you. Crayton was the starting WR for all of 2007. Ergo he was the cowboys #2 receiver. What he is now and what he's viewed as by fans is not relevant to the original argument here.

[THEHEREAFTER]

1) Your terms of considering Crayton outperforming Moss a feasible argument can be directly applied to saying Cooley outperforming Witten is a feasible argument. You've since revised your statement to say Crayton had more TDs, but initially all you said was "outperform" which isn't true.

Dammit elk, I have laundry to finish and I have to go to the grocery store dude... :laugh: You are a persistent SOB aren't you? Just playin, but seriously, I believe I never said "outperform" but that Crayton had "better #'s" (ie TD's). Go back and check the thread.

2) Gurode doesn't bother me so much, I just think he's overrated. Why do you have to act like anytime a Skin fan has an argument, it means something is bothering them? Just stick to the topic. We'll have to agree to disagree on Gurode's ranking among centers in the NFL. I'd def. say he is in the top half, but I myslef wouldn't say he is "one of the best".

Honestly center is one of the harder positions to gauge as an average armchair QB like most of us are. Most "experts" for whatever it's worth consider him to be amongst the leagues best. I'd say he's top 5 definitely.

Injuries, system, coaching, etc. all play a factor. And even without WR TDs right away, the team was still compettive with the best in the NFL, save the Pats. That same WR group and QB who didn't connect in the endzone until later on, were able to come within one play in the final minutes of beating your team in their home. So maybe the WRs not getting TDs right away isn't as important as you are trying to make it be. The team still went 9-7, and still made the playoffs, despite the low TDs by WRs.

Well this year we'll get to figure out if JC's the real deal, how good your O-line is, and how Zorns offense works out. You guys had some tough breaks but the league doesn't care. That's just the way it is the same way you guys could giving a rats behind as to why regressed in December and lost in the playoffs yet again.

[elkabong82]

Dammit elk, I have laundry to finish and I have to go to the grocery store dude... :laugh: You are a persistent SOB aren't you? Just playin, but seriously, I believe I never said "outperform" but that Crayton had "better #'s" (ie TD's). Go back and check the thread.

Honestly center is one of the harder positions to gauge as an average armchair QB like most of us are. Most "experts" for whatever it's worth consider him to be amongst the leagues best. I'd say he's top 5 definitely.

Well this year we'll get to figure out if JC's the real deal, how good your O-line is, and how Zorns offense works out. You guys had some tough breaks but the league doesn't care. That's just the way it is the same way you guys could giving a rats behind as to why regressed in December and lost in the playoffs yet again.

You did say "outperform". Me and dfitz quoted you on it. It's on page one of this thread, in your 3rd post I believe. Gimme a second, I'll post it in here too.

Center is hard to gauge, which is why I won't say Gurode is "one of the best" like you did. I did concede he is in the top half, and I do think overall is a quality center, despite his occasional snap snafus. I'd say Kreutz is the best right now.

Fair enough on the last part.

And post #11 in this thread:

Crayton hasn't proved himself? His numbers last year were better than your #1 receiver.

Maybe not exactly "outperform", but that is what you meant, and it is still just as wrong.

[THEHEREAFTER]

Just quit tapdancing THA. Everyone knows what you said and has enough of a grasp of the english language to understand what the above statement means.

Had you meant TD's you would have said TD's. At least have enough backbone to admit what you said was wrong.

No tapdancing Bird. I was fully aware that Crayton had more TD's than Moss/Randle-El combined yet your receivers had better #'s than Crayton in other areas respectively. I'll concede that I said "better #'s" for emphasis but I was fully aware of the stats. I meant TD's without saying it but you don't have to believe me.

Same goes for you. Crayton was the starting WR for all of 2007. Ergo he was the cowboys #2 receiver. What he is now and what he's viewed as by fans is not relevant to the original argument here.

I've already conceded that Crayton earned his #'s as our #2 receiver last year. I was merely pointing out that the flip-flopping and waffling works both ways. Further IMO, I do think Crayton's natural role and how he's regarded is relevant to the discussion in a sense.

[elkabong82]

I've already conceded that Crayton earned his #'s as our #2 receiver last year. I was merely pointing out that the flip-flopping and waffling works both ways. Further IMO, I do think Crayton's natural role and how he's regarded is relevant to the discussion in a sense.

That does merit consideration. At the same time you should consider El was a #3 WR, and then was forced into the #2 role last season. Though it was b/c of laziness by another WR, not injury.

You did originally try to pass Crayton off as #3 WR outperforming our #1, and that isn't true. You have since conceded though.

[THEHEREAFTER]

Maybe not exactly "outperform", but that is what you meant, and it is still just as wrong.

See this is where you're getting yourself in trouble. :laugh: "Outperform" is more of a definitive statement which encompasses the totality of a season as it pertains to this discussion (ie taking all aspects into consideration). I simply said "better #'s" and I conceded I should have been more specific earlier. By no means am I a "stat guru" but if you Bird, and others want to believe that I was oblivious to how Crayton compared to Moss/ARE in terms of yards and receptions, you're kidding yourselves. It's what I meant.

[elkabong82]

See this is where you're getting yourself in trouble. :laugh: "Outperform" is more of a definitive statement which encompasses the totality of a season as it pertains to this discussion (ie taking all aspects into consideration). I simply said "better #'s" and I conceded I should have been more specific earlier. By no means am I a "stat guru" but if you Bird, and others want to believe that I was oblivious to how Crayton compared to Moss/ARE in terms of yards and receptions, you're kidding yourselves. It's what I meant.

Better #'s isn't a definitive statement? What else besides "outperform" would one construe from "better #'s"?

You did concede though, so it really is a moot point now. I'll take you at your word that you only meant TDs (though it is awfully fishy), just try to be more careful/concise in the future.

[THEHEREAFTER]

That does merit consideration. At the same time you should consider El was a #3 WR, and then was forced into the #2 role last season. Though it was b/c of laziness by another WR, not injury.

You did originally try to pass Crayton off as #3 WR outperforming our #1, and that isn't true. You have since conceded though.

I'm ok with this. Actually DWin will tell you that I argue that Crayton is a capable #2 (as it relates to the prospect of taking on that role again) whereas he feels that he's "no better than and nothing more than a natural #3."

[Bware_Dware]

I didn't see Gurode missed 1 game, but if you are going to address someone, typically it helps if you actually know what they are talking about, lol.

THA and I were discussing WRs, and I said injuries to our OL impacted the production. That is a no brainer, and you know our RG and RT missed almost the entire season, where as the Boys didn't see the kind of injuries on their OL that would have severely impacted their game. You have been following along in this thread though, and you know how much more impacting the Skins OL injuries were than the Boys. You guys tell us to put the hatred aside, I would suggest you all do the same. I am not really bashing the Cowboys in here, so you can stop with the act that the Cowboys OL injuries were anywhere near as devastating as the Skins were.

Im not sure if you are saying that Gurode didnt miss or did miss games in the first part.....

As for the impact of injurie the skins faced vs the Cowboys, well I never once in this whole thread talked about the skins oline, but you did say they didnt have any injuries, and I pointed out they did. Again, please dont pretend I said something I never even hinted towards. As for the hatred, I do not "hate" the skins, I do consider them a rival and dislike the organization. In fact, a couple of my favorite players to watch and follow through their career play on the skins.

[elkabong82]

I'm ok with this. Actually DWin will tell you that I argue that Crayton is a capable #2 (as it relates to the prospect of taking on that role again) whereas he feels that he's "no better than and nothing more than a natural #3."

I'd say the evidence points to both those things about Crayton being true right now, and that only time will really tell which one of you is truly correct.

[THEHEREAFTER]

Better #'s isn't a definitive statement? What else besides "outperform" would one construe from "better #'s"?

You did concede though, so it really is a moot point now. I'll take you at your word that you only meant TDs (though it is awfully fishy), just try to be more careful/concise in the future.

Ehhhhh, not necessarily. I guess it all depends on the context and tone. If I say that Braylon Edwards (who was a fantasy stud for me last year) had better #'s than T.O. (which he did in terms of TD's), one shouldn't necessarily infer that I'm implying that Brayon "outperfomed" T.O? Your points about being specific are well taken though.

[bubba9497]

You guys tell us to put the hatred aside

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

gawd, I love poke fan speak

When anyone states facts about the pokes that is negative.... it's just their hatred..... never because it's true

yet when Poke fans openly make inaccurate and misleading statements about the Skins... usually on their own, lashing out in revenge..... they are supposedly unbiased in their opinion :jerk:

THA for the record you stuck your foot in your mouth and was :owned: by Elk.