Palestinians Whoop It Up

[Soliloquy]

Again, from WSJ's best of the web.

Palestinians Whoop It Up

"There were many smiling faces in Ramallah on Monday as Palestinians celebrated the capture of American and British soldiers by the Iraqi army," the Jerusalem Post reports. The pathetic Palestinians take pleasure in the plight of individual Americans and seem oblivious to America's overwhelming strategic strength:

"This is a big day for the Iraqi people and all the Arabs and Muslims," said a policeman at Yasser Arafat's battered headquarters.

"Everyone here was happy to see pictures of American soldiers in Iraqi custody. This is a big blow for [George W.] Bush and [Tony] Blair. I don't believe they will be able to continue with the war now that many of their soldiers are being killed or taken prisoner."

A member of Yasser Arafat's presidential guard adds: "Saddam has once again proven that he is a great leader, a defender of Arab rights. His men are brave. They have been able to teach the American and British dogs an unforgettable lesson. The Iraqis are much better at war because they have more experience. The American and British soldiers are cowards and spoiled kids."

Arafat won a Nobel Peace Prize in 1994.

Of course these Palestinians are in the throes of delusion. America will not give up the fight merely because Saddam Hussein's forces, using criminal tactics, have killed or captured a few of our men. And yet the Iraqi regime seems to be counting on just such a lack of resolve. The New York Times describes a prerecorded Saddam Hussein speech that aired yesterday on Iraqi television:

Iraq's aim, Mr. Hussein said, should be to drag out the war, denying the United States and Britain the quick victory they planned and dragging them into "this quagmire."

"Today we are standing in a position that would please a friend and anger an enemy and all the infidels," he said. "But we are going to be victorious and we are causing them to suffer.

"These are your decisive days," he added. "Hit now. According to what? According to what God has ordered you to do--'Cut their throats, and be patient.' "

Saddam also hopes to maximize Iraqi civilian casualties, as Mark Steyn observes:

Saddam was greatly heartened by the big round-the-world demos by the NION narcissists (Not In Our Name), and he evidently feels that if he throws enough of the Iraqi citizenry into the path of Anglo-American tanks the NIONist Entity will take to the streets of San Francisco, Glasgow and Sydney and force President Bush to give up. You can't blame him for thinking that way: As he sees it, Western wimpiness in 1991 gave him another 12 years.

After Sept. 11, though, it's clear that Western wimpiness, at least as far as America is concerned, no longer rules the day. Remember how Palestinians whooped it up as the twin towers were burning?

Remember how they took to the streets in protest when America liberated Afghanistan? Neither do we, because it didn't happen. We'll know victory is at hand when the Palestinians shut up about Iraq and Saddam.

[Riggo-toni]

It has been to my great frustration and bewilderment that our country continually seeks to give these people so many chances; that we pressure the Israelis into making so many concessions. They have been our enemies or allied with our enemies since the beginning of the 20th century. I wish we could simply extricate ourselves entirely from the middle east.

It is a great tragedy and a sign of our own country's lack of conviction that we have continually screwed over our allies the Kurds who have tried to be our friends ever since they were led by Barzani in the 70s. We abandoned them as a concession to the Shah, looked the other way when they were gassed by Saddam, urged them to revolt against Saddam, then stood idly by while he slaughtered them. Even now, a condition for liberating them is that they denounce any claims to their own state as a favor to our fairweather friends Turkey and Syria; yet all the while we are simultaneously insisting on the creation of a Palestinian state. No matter how many times the Palestinians spit in our faces and dance on the graves of our dead, we continually succumb to some kind of bleeding heart compulsion to appease them. Perhaps if the Kurds started hijacking airplanes or shooting Olympic athletes, we might feel like listening to them for a change. :doh: :doh:

[Guest SkinsHokie Fan]

Just never forget about the brutal repression of the Isreali government on the Palestinains. The Saddam Huessien regime and the regime in Iran must fall however.

[Ryman of the North]

Brutal repression? Read up on the situation if you want to talk repression. 1 days oil revenue from fellow arab states would BUY enough land for every refugee in the palestinian camps(i say fellow arab because they are always fellow arabs when attacking israel or the US.bottom line the islamic terrorists use the camps as breeding grounds for terrorists and cant afford for the problem to be solved thats why they kill any arab leaders who talk peace with israel.the us needs to quit trying to appease these freaks who condone the killing of women and children!

Riggo i totally agree that the US should look after its friends better and the Kurds are the perfect opportunity to do so!but look at the last time a developed nation aided in the creation of a new nation (israel)do you think that the other nations would let them be or just continue to try to committ genocide?

[BG]

Sounds like Micheal Moore......:puke:

[Ryman of the North]

what does iambg?

[TennesseeCarl]

I really have a tough time empathizing at all with the Palestinians. The image that keeps coming to mind are the celebrations on hearing the news of 9/11.

They're poor...they're Muslim...they caterwaul for the media at the drop of a hat.

But before we jump on this, we might want to remember what we're fighting for in Iraq.

Last I heard, we're after Saddam 'cause he's thumbed his nose at a UN resolution. Right?

Well, there's a UN resolution to the effect that Israel is to withdraw from it's West Bank occupied territory (No. 242 or somesuch). And that resolution is about 30 years old.

I wouldn't expect a lot of sympathy from the Palestinians....

[Art]

The Israeli's are NUTS for brutally repressing the Palestinians. The repression is so great, the Palestinians can't get guns, and bombs and kill Israelis anymore. Oh, wait, it's not so brutal or repressive afterall.

[The Consigliere]

I don't take UN Resolutions seriously in regards to Israel. There is a deep anti-semitic bent in the UN in my view (remember the anti-semitic non-sense going on in the weeks preceding 9/11?), and beyond that there is the fact these territories were never the palestinians in the first place. The territories have been controlled for thousands of years by a variety of different cultures, but the Palestinians have never been able to claim the land as their own. The tragic truth, is that both the Palestian's and the Jews have been the proverbial 'ugly little step children' of the middle east, orphan cultures without a homeland, minorities wherever they are, wherever they go. They've been ethnicly cleansed out of Jordan, and Kuwait just in the past forty years but you won't hear them make a peep about it, because they were brother muslim's doing the ethnic cleansing, its the infidel Jews who are unacceptable (a horrible reality considering that early on these two cultures got on beautifully) to them.

The truth is, there was a mandate on the table in the UN to create homelands for the Jews and the Palestinians, but by the time this was on the table, the one time brotherhood that existed between these peoples, and the surrounding Arab and Islamic states had degenerated into unconcealed hatred and distrust (sewn in part by Hitler and the Nazi's and much earlier as well). Palestinians rejected the deal, and surrounding Arab and Muslim Nations promised that the land would be free of Jews and the Palestinians alone. But instead, the Israeli's kicked the crap out of the vastly superior (in numbers and technology, but not in will and determination and tacts) firepower and numbers of the attacking states. In the Six day war of '67 and the Yom Kippur war, Israel again kicked arse and won the territory fair and square. If there is one thing history tells you, it's that when you kick someones but up and down the field in war, what you conquer is yours. The Israeli's conquered new territories in part for greater security and they have every right to those territories. They already released previously conquered territories to Egypt following the Peace Process with Sadat and would do the same with the Palestinians if they had a legit interest in the peace process. Unfortunately there is a huge minority (possibly small majority) of Palestinians who wan't nothing less than all of Israel, and to push the Jews into the sea. Fair enough, there will be no peace then, until there is a legitament desire on the part of the Palestinians for peace. Sharon is in power for one reason, because the Israeli's no longer believe that Palestinians want peace, and to share borders, and independent homelands. I don't blame them at all. I feel for the harsh reality of the palestinians every day lives, they are horrible to say the least.

But they've chosen their leadership, and much like other area's in the ME, they have chosen to resolve issues with violence and terrorism, rather than via honest negotiations and/or peaceful civil disobediance if the negotiations fail. The biggest problem in the ME today is the fact that there is zero accountability, virtually no representative governments, and religious interference in education. This means that few are being truly educated, few, if any, have any hand in choosing their own government, and there is a sense that Islam would be succeeding if it was not betrayed, backstabbed, and destroyed via the west. The unfortunate truth is that since the days of the Mongol incursions into the ME, Islamic Culture has set about destroying it's own educational/scholastic heritage, and has in truth, immolated itself through corruption, lack of accountability in the government, and the trust in the truth of Islam and only Islam, over the value of reason, science, and modern intellecutal scientific discourse and inquiry.

Every culture has the tools to succeed, it's up to them as to whether they succeed or not. The Palestianians, as well as Iraq, Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt, etc have only themselves to blame, it's no coincidence that Japan was a country in ruins, it's cities raised, it's sense of cultural superiority crushed, found the ability to rise from the dead, Phoenix like, to become the most powerful technological and economic power in the world outside the US and possibly West Germany in the eighties. Japan was certainly as bad off as much of the ME in 1945, but unlike Egypt, and Syria, and Saudi Arabia, Japan had embraced parts of the western culture (mostly the technological and scientific side) in the nineteenth century, and following the destruction of the Bushido/Samurai Cultural Superiority Ethos that ruled in the twenties/thirties/forties, Japan took up representative democracy, market based economics, built up a powerful education system, got rid of emperor worship, and took up reason, and scientific inquiry as never before and became a powerhouse. And in doing so, they didn't abandon their cultural identity, they just modified it to cope with what is required to succeed in the modern world. Until the Arab and much of the Muslim and the Palestinian World realizes what works, and what doesn't, they will continue to futilely blame anyone but themselves for the economic, and political failures that have left their varied cultures in such dire straits. With India right across the border from Pakistan, you'd think they'd at least pick up on how India's become one of the most prodigious world contributors to the new information economy and the new technologies via their incredibly rigorous, if one dimensional, education system. Even if it's not working on all cylinders, and is not totally effective, India has still managed to produce a huge percentage of the most prestigious electrical and civil engineering, and computer scientist graduates in the world.

But no, let's build madrasas, and teach our Palestinian children to strap bombs to themselves, and that f'ing bushes and trees will one day tell muslims a jew is hiding behind it, and they must come and kill that jew. Nope, as you can tell by yet another longwinded diatribe from the consigliere, that I, indeed, do not have a lot of sympathy for Palestinians, or the ME in general. The time you start taking accountability for your reality is the time you can finally start changing things for the better. I'm still waiting, suffice it to say....

[Brave]

Originally posted by Soliloquy

Saddam has once again proven that he is a great leader, a defender of Arab rights. His men are brave.

Yes, those BRAVE Iraqis who tried to surrender before the damn war even started. Those brave souls who surrendered to news crews last time around.

Those brave soldiers whose best offensvie weapon is the fake surrender and attack of the soft-target rear units.

Oh yeah, those are some model soldiers.

[StuckinIA]

Great post Consigliere!

[Canyonero!]

I'm so happy to know that these people are so grateful to our President. He's going to seriously endanger Israel's existance by helping to create a Palestinian state.

More on The Consigliere's feelings about the UN and Israel, here are some facts that most people don't know about:

1. In 1948, when the armies of five surrounding Arab dictatorships invaded tiny, newborn Israel--in what the secretary general of the Arab League announced was a "war of extermination" against "the Jews"--the United Nations sat on its ***. And did not send a fact-finding mission.

2. Among the nearly 200 nations represented at the U.N., only Israel has ever been assigned special--reduced--membership privileges, its ambassadors formally barred, for 53 straight years ending only recently, from election to the Security Council.

3. The U.N. Commission on Human Rights, which regularly--and unreprovingly--accepts delegations from any number of homicidal tyrannies across the globe, has issued fully a quarter of its official condemnations to a single (democratic) country: Israel.

Meanwhile, since 1955, Israel has had no less than 65 UN Security Counsil Resolutions passed against them. This is the public figure that passed the Security Counsil votes. There's no telling just how many didn't make it out of the vote.

It's been clear to those of us that pay attention to this crap way to often that the UN is made up of anti-Israeli (read: anti-Semetic) factions. This, coupled with the fact that the UN can't enforce it's own resolutions on Iraq and many other issues makes me wonder how much longer it will take before the UN becomes The Leage of Nations II (in other words, non-existant).

On a side-note; with all the goings on in Iraq, how happy should we all be the Israel destroyed that French built Nuclear Reactor in Iraq back in June 1981? Menachem Begin had some balls I'd say.

[Golgo-13]

Was that an actual article written by a journalist? Or was it a script for this weeks Weekend Update on Saturday Night Live? That ranks up there as one of the worst pieces of published material I have EVER read.

[Ryman of the North]

Thank you Canyonero and consigliere! i was starting to think only navy, art and myself were realising what israel has to go through and i posted some of that stuff under different threads earlier(especially about the reactor and gerald bulls super cannon).

Its funny because the muslims accuse the U.S. of favoritising Israel but after 1973 when Israel was driving to cairo possibly ending the morass, the only thing that stopped them wasnt the brave competent arab soldiers but the U.S,who threatened removal of aid if the Israelis continued their advance!

[Guest SkinsHokie Fan]

I have never said Isreal does not have a right to exist or defend itself. However its policy of expansion and sending settlers and ultimately trying to drive out all the Palestenians is wrong. And that is the ultimate objective- to get as many of the world's Jewish population to Isreal and make it THE Jewish homeland. In order to do that you gotta drive out the Palestenians. Hence para military settlers and the systemtic tourture of the Palestenians living there. Do the Palestenians not have a right to stick up for themselves also?

[The Consigliere]

Canyonero:

Did you get a chance to catch that great History Channell Story on the Israeli attack on the Iraqi Nuclear Facility? God it was an amazing story, and it included the interesting fact that Iran tried to Bomb the facility as well, but they sent only two planes in, and the bombs rolled off the roof and blew up fuel depots beside the Facility. The Israeli's decided to send 8 F-16's on the mission, each with specific bombing targets (the roof, the top floor, second floor, basement etc) to insure that a hole was punched through the roof and the ensuing bombs destroyed everything inside it. It was well thought out, and was a last resort mission after their desperate plea's to the world community, and to France and Italy were ignored, and potentially assasinations and blackmail failed to stop it.

I've come to love how Ballsy Israel can be in dealing with it's own security. They are not naive enough to expect protection from the UN or the world community, they know that they can only trust themselves and thus act accordingly, not always wisely, but certainly prudently and they take nothing but sh!t for it. Happily, there is at least to some degree growing support for Israel in this country, although after the behavior of Palestinians on 9/11 (multiple parades with security provided by Arafat's own party, most of this not reported over here for politically correct reason and because of threats Arafat put on journalists) and recently after the video of P.O.W.'s and executed P.O.W.'s was shown.

Thanks to Canyonero for his great post as well. And i send my appreciation to Ryan and StuckinIA, it drives me to distraction to see the b.s. constantly spewed from the ME on these subjects and particularly from the far left that I used to be a part of in the bay area. I think my allignment with the far left, which was growing more and more precarious in recent years, collapsed while listening to a radio broadcast of the Memorial for the Flight 93 Heroes a week or two after 9/11. Some complete and utter jackarse was screaming, "What did you do America, what did you do? When you refused to sign Kyoto this year, when you refused to join in rebuking Israel and calling Zionism racism in the UN last month!!! When you ask how could this happen? Think, what did you do America!" Anyway most of it's paraphrased but I distinctly remember the the What did you do America cr@p, the references to Kyoto, and the UN's resolution to refer to Zionism as racism and how America is an imperialist, economically exploitave den of thieves, whose chickens are coming home to roost." The crowd cheered, and our senators, and families of the bay area hero's (Bingham and Tom Burnett) got up and left the stage in the middle of the arsehole's speech. I saw my fellow leftists, who I tended to agree with on some social issues and the environment, but rarely on geo-politics (hey, I was a history major ), make such colossal arses of them selves, such a shameful display of themselves, that I found myself almost ashamed to be a leftists myself, and in truth, I began to realize that I really am not alligned to the left or the right. I don't trust either, and would prefer to think for myself (I'm not alligned with Libertarians either, however) and never allow myself to become complacently associated with any party again.

That's enough babbling about me, did anyone else hear about that speech in California during that Memorial?

[Guest SkinsHokie Fan]

There is a major difference between our conflict with Al Qaeda and Iraq and Isreal's conflict with the Palestenians.

As a lot of you know who have ever followed what I post I am a young Muslim born in America to Pakistani parents and I lean very much to the right on economic and geo political issues. However I like many people can be very independent minded.

Its pretty obvious why we need to attack Iraq, Afghanistan and dismantle Al Qaeda. They pose a serious threat to our security not because of anything we did but because they simply hate us and use us as an excuse for their failures. Instead of holding themselves accountable they blame problems on America which and keep themselves in positions of power by being enemies of America. They also exploit the situation the Palestenians are in and blame America for Isreal's transgressions. This is how Saddam, Osama and other of my fellow "Muslims" (I dont consider them Muslims because no Muslim would kill innocents) keep themselves in power.

The Isreal-Palestinian conflict is a whole different monster with different reasons why it has been occuring. First of all you can't say there is no brutal repression occuring until you have been to the West Bank, Gaza Strip and other Palestenian territories. If you ever get a chance in your life to see this without having to go through Isreal do it because it will change your views. What the Isreali army does to these people almost reaches to the lows of what Saddam does to his own people.

Quite simply road blocks are set up everywhere. In order to walk 3 miles you must pass through 5 roadblocks each asking for paper work and each holding you in upwards of 30 minutes to an hour. You have settlers in the region with shot guns who fire indiscriminantley at people with brown skin. You have Isreali tanks that randomly fire at houses. This is as close to hell as you can get in my opinion.

So why do these Palestinians kids believe in the nonsense they are taught. Thats why. They see nothing else but Isreali military and psuedo military units (settlers) harrasing them and making their life a living hell. American military units on the other hand HELP Iraqi's HELP the Afghans HELP the Saudia's. Saddam and Osama's hate is based on keeping themselves in power.

I agree that Isreal has every right to exist and defend itself. However roadblocks are the most unneccessary thing ever. Thank goodness I had an American passport but even then they questioned me and asked for paperwork. In Isreal-Palestine there is a cause and effect that is happening. In terrorism against America that does not exist at all.

Now before calling me an anti-semite I am simply against the tactics of the Isreali government and for that matter the PLO. I dont like Arafat, I think he is ineffective but he will be there as a symbol at minimum. He has done too much for the Palestinians.

I have several jewish friends and simply see past that. However I wont ever stop seeing past the transgressions of the Isreali government.

[Kilmer17]

I hope this comes across the way I intend it.

What else is Israel supposed to do? Those roadblocks prevent homicide bombers from continually targeting and killing Jewish civilians.

Israel has offered peace agreements over and over. And offered up to 97 percent of what the PLO wanted, but Arafat walked away. I see Israel making every attempt possible to allow for a Palestinian state, while at the same time I see the PLO/Hamas/Etc offering no peace until the Jews are "driven into the sea".

How should they respond?

[The Consigliere]

My take is simple. I think what Palestinians are going through is horrible. I also think it is a creation of their own making, both based on decisions they made in, I believe it was '47, and in decisions they made in the ensuing years, choosing terrorism, war and murder, over negotiating honestly and openly, and fairly. Both negotiations and/or Peaceful Civil Disobediance could have accomplished all that those who wanted a home land without the destruction of Israel could have wanted. Unfortunately the terrorists won out, Palestinians chose a terrorist for a leader, war for an answer in '47, and terrorism as a means to solve the lack of statehood. Israel has responded to this, not always wisely (i think settlement building is nuts, I would have created a no man's land buffer zone in those regions, not settlements, and I definitely do not agree with Sharon's behavior in Lebanon, and in many of his actions since the latest intifada). The problem in my view, is that Israel has come to believe that a majority, or at least a very large minority of Palestinians want it all, and want Israel and it's Jews to vanish. This cannot and will not happen, and so the governments of late have decided that security is paramount. It's a paradox, the more aggressive, and crazy the security measures, the more powerful the terrorist movement gets, and the less support among Palestinians for peace, but when Israel attempts to move with more concilatory gestures, and toward a potentially lasting peace, the terrorist groups that supposedly do not represent Palestinian leadership or Palestinians themselves, attack civilians, and murder at a prodigious rate to forestall the peace process (obviously because they want all the Jews dead and/or gone, they most assuredly do not want peace) and of course there are celebratory parades (think that spineless scumf--- ******* and his friends who showed to a cheering crowd, his blood drenched hands following the murder of two old reservists back in October of 2000 if I remember right), and an education system that preaches hate, and suicide for glory at its core in many of the camps.

Nobody wants peace there more than I do, I have many friends in Israel and do not want them dying in a war against cultural cousins (that share essentially historical ostracism from neighboring cultures, and are the 'ugly step childs' of the ME so to speak, its a terrible shame that these two cultures can't realize how much they once shared in common), but for peace to occur, Israel has to believe that Palestinians will stop murdering them by the dozens, and will stop their quest to destroy Israel itself. Israel does not believe that and with good reason. The only way peace can happen is if that belief can be restored and that will take a Palestinian with the heart, mind, and wisdom of MLK, and corresponding monumental trust and wisdom in Israel. It doesn't seem likely. In my darker moments, I'd approve a peace process that offered Palestinians contiguous territories, a homeland that was not sections independent from one eachother geographically but rather contiquous, but I would not allow for right of return and voting rights (it would destroy the Jewish Majority in Israel and Jerusalem, the whole point of Israel in the first place, since Palestinian reproductive rates are at an enormously higher level than Israeli) in greater Israel itself. But all this would be done with one caveat, if terrorist attacks continued after this agreement, it would be all out war.

I don't think that's an answer, but other than wise, and credible leadership among the Palestinians, and corresponding trust from the leadership in Israel, this situation can't be resolved. It's freaking horrible.