Tarhog Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Sorry about that crack EM. I'm stressed about the Gulf situation. Gonna put myself in time-out. Argue on brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 The deal may be you, EM. Think about it . Though, surprisingly, I understand what you are saying. We did overpay for a receiver with Coles' current pedigree. And, it is, seemingly, a good idea. However, the point against that view is that it is impossible to overpay when overpaying is required to make a move. Simply put, one can't offer too much if offering just that amount makes the deal possible in the first place. Just depends how one looks at it. Clearly though, there is something about the way you communicate that brings about questions. It is something you may want to address in your style, or, do as I do and discontinue complaints about being addressed so. If you don't enjoy a little vigorous inspection of your views, then, speak less, or, lean toward speaking more clearly so as to avoid such confusion based on what is frequently contradictory or flatly misstated comments in your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisrud Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Congrats you guys got him. I am gonna miss him. He is awesome. It was just too much money to give him. I guess I should be more pissed at the Falcons for setting the market with Price rather than Snyder, but it is just easier to dislike him. Coles is tough as F'n nails with a bad-*** attitude and a chip on his shoulder to boot. I am not a bitter Jets fan today though. I cannot wait for the Curtis Conway press conference as well as the introduction of punter Dan Strysinki. You guys are absolutely right about their other deals. The Chrebet contract last season is the reason we could not match Coles. The Fabini/Mawae deals I live with even CMart's restructure but the Chrebet one is the killer. See you on Opening Day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle red Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 I think one could perhaps argue that we overpaid for LC, but then there are degrees of overpaying - this is not some kind of "Flozell Adams $10 million signing bonus" type deal. I think we went somewhat above what Coles could have commanded were he on the open market, but it was necessary in order for us to give Spurrier a proven weapon for the offense. And as long as we have the cap space and we're not killing ourselves in the long run (which we don't appear to be), then "overpaying" is not necessarily a bad thing. And I am not ready to say that Coles is a top-5 receiver, but I am willing to say he is a top-12 receiver. And I would not want to bet against him improving that status dramatically in the Skins' offense over the next few seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaRock Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Originally posted by Yusuf06 :cry: :cry: :cry: Yo Thony get me da Kleenex will youse ? Sob Sob :laugh: worst accent in the world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisrud Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Originally posted by uncle red And I am not ready to say that Coles is a top-5 receiver, but I am willing to say he is a top-12 receiver. And I would not want to bet against him improving that status dramatically in the Skins' offense over the next few seasons. That is why the Jets could not match and Snydbrenner and the Skins are taking heat for the outrageous bonus. Keep in mind I am not knocking anyone here just real F'n bitter. If someone would have told me Lav Coles, Randy Thomas and John Hall would all be against us on Opening Night I would have said you are crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimboDaMan Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Heres the deal: the average of the top 5 receivers in the NFL is $5m a year. Thats what you have to pay if you franchise tag your WR. So unless Coles is as good as the top 5 -- we're talking Harrison, Moss, Owens -- he isn't worth $5m a year. But that ignores the fact that Moss signed for TWICE what Coles did. Owens counts for almost $7 million this year and is up for renewal - almost surely will go way over $5m/y. Harrison got a $12m bonus 3 years ago, when he runs out after 2004 or renegs earlier he'll be way ofer $5m also. The top 5 were going to go over 5 million anyway, the latest FA signings just ups the ante. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCS:BraveCaringSoul Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Here's an example of the actual crap they're saying about Coles including shameful prayers that he tears his acl. Coles last play as a Jet!!!! JonEJet Veteran Posts: 430 Registered: Jan 2003 posted March 19, 2003 13:51 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I went to the game in Oakland. The last thing I vividly remember Coles doing was.. 1st quarter, 1st drive. Penny to Coles in the end zone for a sure TD!! Not. Drop!! You have left New York, with alot of $$$$$, but have lost my respect!! You leave me with a bitter taste. IP: Logged Mean Yo Green Rookie Posts: 58 Registered: Mar 2003 posted March 19, 2003 13:58 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree, this has been dealt with previously but I say Fudge him, damn ingrate I hope we sign Boss Bailey and he knocks the living snot out of LC on opening night in his red #80 loser jersey, punk *** *****. If he just took the money and ran that would be one thing, but I cant digest him talking smack on the way out. IP: Logged pope All Pro Posts: 1503 Registered: Jun 2002 posted March 19, 2003 14:04 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- His first play as a skin, torn ACL, he he IP: Logged JumbalayaJet Board Administrator Posts: 1661 Registered: Nov 2001 posted March 19, 2003 14:25 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We had a huge momentum advantage if he comes down with that. The Rocky Horror Show was getting quiet. ------------------ The Patsies suck and are a total Fluke. The NY Jets rule the AFC East!!! What a motley crew. http://fractalcore.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Jets+Insider+Landing+Strip&number=115 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted March 19, 2003 Author Share Posted March 19, 2003 EM, my good man, Good lord is everyone around here so sensitive?? Yes. Take you, for instance. I noted that your first post seemed to argue against itself by saying that while the Coles move was bad, it was, in fact, also quite good ... then went on in some detail explaining why. You responded to my query by saying, basically, the same thing, only this time added to it by way of "clarification" a condescending little ditty on supply and demand. Brother, If you didn't expect a bit of a combative response to that, you may want to take a step back and realize that not everybody on this board is in high school. Your point is clear enough, I suppose, whether one agrees with it or not; it's the way you go about stating it is, at best, inartful and argumentative, and the "reasons" you use in support of it are ... well, let's see: Heres the deal: the average of the top 5 receivers in the NFL is $5m a year. Thats what you have to pay if you franchise tag your WR. Factually correct, but not altogether germane and certainly not persuasive. I won't presume you're in high school, bro, so I won't dredge up a cutesy way to illustrate the concept of median vs. average. Instead, I'll just assume you're familiar with it and can apply it here. So unless Coles is as good as the top 5 -- we're talking Harrison, Moss, Owens -- he isn't worth $5m a year. Please tell me you don't see things purely in terms of financial structure, EM. It would make the debate so damn boring. Coles is worth to the Redskins what it took to get him. He's worth what it took to get the Jets not to match. On the open market, he may have come a bit cheaper. On the restricted market, his price tag turned out to be ... $5 million. It's the price of doing business. The front office, based on the totality of the circumstances, determined that on this team he IS worth $5 million (we won't even go into the actual structure of the contract that renders that number almost meaningless, okay?). Had they called you first, they might have been persuaded otherwise (the water in the desert thing would have been particularly effective I think), but alas they did not. The figure "$5 million" is not carved on a stone tablet. You don't go to Neiman Marcus to the WR Section and find these guys lined up on a shelf by ascending price tags. You apply ALL the circumstances surrounding a player and what it takes to get him ... and you decide if he's worth it to you. It's only then that the NFL crunches the "averages" and tells the league what next year's top 5 restricted free agents will be worth when it comes to tender. And it's only then that guys like ... well, you .... decide by looking at their reception and yardage totals and hold forth on whether or not they are worth $4 million or $5 million to a given team. I just said "like $3m". I don't know if he's worth $3m or $4m, but i know he's not worth $5m. do you think he is? because if you do, you're saying he's as good as those guys. I see. He may be worth $4 million, but not $5. Definitely not $5. EM, the truth is I just don't think highly enough of myself to flatly state that a certain player is or is not worth a certain amount of money; certainly not without access to all the information about the man and how he fits into a given team's plans; his contract situation now and down the road, the makeup of my current roster and consideration of who else I plan to bring in to play around him, etc., etc. etc. You, on the other hand, clearly do think highly enough of yourself to state when one is not, right down to the potential average salary difference of a million a season over the life of a 7 year contract. Impressive. Promise us you'll use your powers for good, okay? He's good, but not that good. Last year, his bets year, he was like 10th best in yards, 37th best in TDs, 12th best in receptions. REally, really good. Not top 5. Not worth $5m a year.But the skins need a receiver to stretch the field real bad. bad enough to overpay for him. We've been over this. Read the thread again. i better explain it again so you understand it, because the whole "supply and demand" thing confused you. you're in the desert. you're thirst. you'll pay $20. your buddy is sipping coronas by the ocean. he laughs at you for paying $20 for water when he's paying $5 for beer. but he's wrong -- yes, you overpaid, but it was definitely worth it to you.So yes (ohh this is gonna get confusing for you again) i think the skins overpaid for him, and i think it was a good move. Hell, man, by now everybody knows YOU think that. I just don't happen to agree, and I've been silly enough to try to explain just a couple of the fallacies in your argument. There are so many, I had to just pick a couple. Why I care whether you continue to argue with yourself over this ("it IS a good move, not it's NOT") is beyond me. Even well-argued, that thesis is bereft of usefulness on practically any level. Argues as you have, it's an insult even to high schoolers. Maybe it's just that I haven't been around much and the absence has dulled my judgement ... as well as my debating skills. I know. Maybe you can explain that to me, too. * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganggreen76 Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Congratulations on getting Coles. He's a rising star. But I don't think I'm going out on a limb by stating the Jets still have a better team than the Redskins. I can't wait until Sept. 4th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Why don't you think you're not going out onto a limb with that commentary GG? You seem to be going well beyond just out on the limb. You appear to be going over a cliff. For the record, you guys were two games better than we were last year. Here are the factors that helped get you to that advantage that no longer exist. We were in the first year of new systems. We'd just overturned 30-plus players on the roster and were learning to play together. We were breaking in a rookie QB. None of these situations presently exists. That alone, if all else stated the same, would have evened our teams up some. Now, add to that the fact that we've taken your best receiver and may now have THREE receivers soon (with Ismail) who are easily or can be argued to be better than any single receiver you have or will probably have. Add to that we have your star offensive lineman. Add to that we have your kicker for the last six years. In fact, there's no legitimate way you can intelligently say you have the better team. You can hope the rest of the offseason improves you to the point that you are better, sure. But, you guys are getting beaten to high hell, and any comments that you are somehow better than the Redskins at this moment in time is beyond the pale for how silly and blind a fan can be. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom [Giants fan] Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 When you throw in the first rounder that you lost on top of what the contract is worth, I'd say you way over paid for Coles. Of course, you will truly be able to tell whether you over paid after several seasons and see how he performed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Brown #43 Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Originally posted by TheChosenOne OMG Colez is teh SUCK! U guys got RIPPED! OMG Danny is teh MORON! Coles is nothing, he just caught those passez cuz everyone wuz distracted by the Green Lantern.... it doesnt matta, we have da best WR named Moss in da league, Snyder is a joke! Coles is overrated, he's going to get hurt, he's too small to last in this league, unlike Chrebet and Moss! Idiot Deadskins! OMG, so OWNED! Classic!!!!! Sounds very familiar!!! :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Even Madder Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 OM, im beggining to think you cant read. I never said the move was bad. I said it was good. I said the skins overpaid, and they did, for a guy with coles production, but that was a good thing to do. what are you arguing? are you saying the skins didnt overpay? by your argument, the skins can never overpay. whatever they pay was the fair market value, becasue they paid it, right? ill simplify it for you, again. say theres a car you really want, and according to blue book its worth $30K. you and i get in a bidding war, and i offer $31k for it. is the car now "worth" $31k? No. it's still worth $30k. but if you really need it and you dont have a alternative that does what it does, then it might be a good value for you to outbid me. that's what the skins did for coles. they outbid the jets for him. coles isn't "worth" a $13m signing bonus and giving up a #13 pick, but he's still a good pickup for the skins. i dont know why thats so hard for you. i never contrradicted myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Even Madder Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 no prob tarhog. i heard they wont launch until two things happen: the sand storm dies down, and its night in Iraq. we fight nasty at night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franchise Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Hey Tom, that's the whole point of the Coles signing. We would have used the #1 pick on a receiver with a $10 mil signing bonus. So we give Coles a little more at $13 mil, but we get a proven commodity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggoDrill Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 I don't think anyone can definitively say we overpaid until we see what a comparable receiver would have cost us in the draft. Would getting Andre Johnson have meant trading away a 2nd or 3rd rounder? Would he have made it to camp? How much money would it take to get him in camp? Really, you can only compare the Coles signing to the Redskin's other options for achieving the same goal, which was to get a starter-quality burner receiver whom they could play immediately. Comparing the Coles signing to the salary of other WR's who were signing under completely different circumstances is ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathByLinebacker Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 You can also compare Coles signing to the Peerless Price signing since they put up similar #'s and were in similar situations. They both cost a #1 pick, although Atlanta's was a lower one Falcons | Contract Details: Price - from KFFL (http://nfl.kffl.com)March 7, 2003 19:21:21 PT Updating earlier reports, Len Pasquarelli reports for ESPN.com WR Peerless Price's seven-year contract with the Atlanta Falcons is worth $42 million, and includes a $10 million signing bonus Falcons | Contract Breakdown: WR Peerless Price - from KFFL (http://nfl.kffl.com) March 14, 2003 19:14:49 PT ESPN.com’s Len Pasquarelli reports the deal between the Atlanta Falcons and WR Peerless Price breaks down as follows: Price received a $10 million signing bonus. He’ll have base salaries of $530,000 (2003), $1.97 million (2004), $2 million (2005), $4.4 million (2006), $4.4 million (2007), $4 million (2008) and $5.5 million (2009). The final year voids if Price reaches certain predetermined playing-time incentives in any of the first six years. He’ll receive workout bonuses of $250,000 each 2004 and 2005 and $100,000 each for 2006 and 2007. There are also roster bonuses of $500,000 each for 2006-2007 and $1 million each 2008-2009. Coles seems right in line by that standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Even Madder Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 OK, let's see. Last year Dante STallworth was the #13 pick (top WR in the draft). He signed a 6-year deal worth $15m. That's a $6m signing bonus and $9m over 6 years. he caught 42 balls for 600 yards and 8 TDs. So coles was more expensive that whoever we'd get at #13, but he also has more production (except TDs). but what if we traded up? say we traded up to get Charlie Rogers. last year the #2 pick got a 7 year $50m contract. so coles is cheaper than that, and we'd have to give up probably at least a 2nd round pick. and everyone knows that rookie WRs suck. so what about vets? he cost more than price or boston, but boston wouldnt really fit in the offense spurrier wants. Price would have. So coles is cheaper than Charlie Rogers, more expensive than any compparably vets. I think you have to look at price as the benchhmark becuase he's the closest fit (young fast receiver) to coles. by that benchmark, yeah, they overpaid. Price was cheaper. But if you look at the risk/reward, you have to say that its a good pickup. Coles is less risky than any rookie, even a cant-miss guy like rogers who would be way more expensive, and he fits the offense better than Boston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted March 20, 2003 Author Share Posted March 20, 2003 I read just fine, Madder. In fact, I'm pretty voracious. I just get bored reading the same thing over and over ... especially in the comic book section. Perhaps you might take your own advice and actually read somebody's posts but your own as well. I threw a good half-dozen concepts at you in my last post that were actually NOT repeats of previous posts. Ones that went directly to your whole valuation thing. They weren't great, because I was rushing ... but they're there. You chose to answer or addressed exactly .... none. Instead, you said the same thing again, this time throwing in a little used car angle instead of the bottled water thing. Yawn. Guess it comes down to your being adamantly sure that the Redskins "overpaid" -- by the apparently unassailable criteria you raise -- and my trying unsuccesfully to introduce the concept of grey into your black and white world. On to brighter pastures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdsknbill Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Originally posted by BallCoachSpurrier What a motley crew. http://fractalcore.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Jets+Insider+Landing+Strip&number=115 Man, I just made a visit to that site, and they are ruthless to each other. What a bunch of bitter whiners wallowing in denial! :laugh::laugh: :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Originally posted by Even Madder OK, let's see. Last year Dante STallworth was the #13 pick (top WR in the draft). He signed a 6-year deal worth $15m. That's a $6m signing bonus and $9m over 6 years. he caught 42 balls for 600 yards and 8 TDs. So coles was more expensive that whoever we'd get at #13, but he also has more production (except TDs). but what if we traded up? say we traded up to get Charlie Rogers. last year the #2 pick got a 7 year $50m contract. so coles is cheaper than that, and we'd have to give up probably at least a 2nd round pick. and everyone knows that rookie WRs suck. so what about vets? he cost more than price or boston, but boston wouldnt really fit in the offense spurrier wants. Price would have. So coles is cheaper than Charlie Rogers, more expensive than any compparably vets. I think you have to look at price as the benchhmark becuase he's the closest fit (young fast receiver) to coles. by that benchmark, yeah, they overpaid. Price was cheaper. But if you look at the risk/reward, you have to say that its a good pickup. Coles is less risky than any rookie, even a cant-miss guy like rogers who would be way more expensive, and he fits the offense better than Boston. How is Coles more expensive than Price? I admit that I haven't looked at the actual contract breakdowns, but my impression is that, while Coles' SB was higher (which it had to be due to Coles being a RFA signing versus Price being a trade), his base salaries accelerate less. Basically, their cap #s are pretty similar. In addition, they each cost the acquiring team their first round pick in this year's draft. So, how is Coles more expensive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Even Madder Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Well, for starters the skins paid the #13 pick for coles. the falcons paid the #23 pick for price. Moving up 10 spots in the first round would cost you a second rounder, so the skins paid about a second rounder more. The skins also pay more money upfront ($13m) than price ($10m). Theyre both 7 year deals, and both of them escalate, but it really doesnt matter because 7 years is too far in the future to even guess and the average career is much less than 10 years. They arent wildly different deals, but it looks like the skins tie up about $1m a year more than the falcons in the first couple of years. Thats another decent player's worth of cap room the falcons can afford that the skins cant. But maybe the skins just see something in coles that makes him that much better than price. I don't, but i dont review film and all that like they did. Maybe coles is worth that much more than price. just looking at production on the field they look pretty even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Whaaatavuh......... Yous guys think you had soch a grweat offseason with getting ahr best playuh, but whos gonna trow to 'em? Who is yo qwataback? Rab Jhansen?????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baralufficus Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 I have been visiting that site , and boy are they a touchy group ...I think i got the whole board pissed ....and it feels so good... HTTR!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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