The reality of Todd Collins and Jason Campbell

[SnyderMustGo]

This pretty well sums it up.

From Dan LeBatard at the Miami Herald:

Q: dan how would you explain the redskins turn around? Its hard not to believe that the taylor tragedy has made them a better team.

jaxx, miami 12/24/07

A: oh, for the love of dear god, please tell me you are joking....what a false positive that is....first of all, they lost the first game at home after his death....secondly, jason campbell can't play....he held back those skill-position guys all year....i wrote after game 1 of miami's season that the dolphins had just lost to the worst qb on their schedule.....todd collins, by merely not being jason campbell, has brought out their skill guys......i've had this argument for weeks now with the guys at the station....kurt warner was a nobody, a grocery-store clerk....and his skill guys made him league mvp....i believe 50 qbs in the league could have been kurt warner with tory holt and isaac bruce and marshall faulk and orlando pace and az hakim......warner was a bag boy....i'll never understand why we ignore how much amazing skill guys can make even a bad qb good and a decent qb great......randall cunningham at 40 and out of the league running a tile business came back and was mvp because he had ridiculous skill guys in minnesota.....and it is a tribute to just how bad campbell is that he couldn't do anything with santana, randle-el, cooley and portis....but let's go ahead and say a funeral is the reason they're playing better....i'm always fighting this stuff in sports.....i'm a sports atheist in a world where you guys desperately want to believe in the abstracts.....the redskins lost at home to a bad bills team after that funeral....and they're winning now because they changed quarterbacks....i always wonder why sports fans so desperately want the intangibles to be reasons....if i told you a magic unicorn was responsible for the redskins winning, would you believe that? ....or how about that the redskins have been praying really hard? is that why they're winning?....it is just as silly as the idea that emotion or fate is the reason they're winning......

Dan Le Batard 12/24/07

[SnyderMustGo]

That quote should probably be a separate post if anyone wants to post it for me.

[Guest Spearfeather]

Todd Collins is the best quarterback we have.

[uvaskins]

I totally agree with this post. TC has run a well-balanced offense during JC's absence. How will TC deal with his first true test (a tough Seattle defense that is playoff-tested?)

[Soup]

If your a coach How can you just throw away the talent Jason has? Yes, he's raw and needs to be coached Up. But imagine Jason's abilities with Todd's knowledge of the offense, that would make this team dominate. I just hope Jason can improve because it would be a waste

[Thiebear]

I just hope JC is taking notes about the timing of the offense.

Al Saunders 700 pages doesnt work unless you hit the underneath check down 3 or 4 times to OPEN up the big play.

TC is making that decision on his second step back into the drop, JC would hold the ball to see if the larger play would develop. Check down.

We have quality depth at QB. Not many teams in the league can say that. Who do we owe our thanks to?

.. he's hitting the spots... the receivers are arriving on time.. it helps.

[seoulman]

I don't post on this forum too frequently but I really wanted to chime in on this because I think people are getting too emotional about the choice between JC and TC because we're winning.

The way I look at the QB position I think there are 2 distinct qualities that each QB must possess to be a really good player in the NFL. First, they must be able to "manage games" and play within the offense. That means going through their progressions, reading defenses, and making the smart play. Secondly, they have to be play makers. When your back is against the wall and you've got to make a play, you need someone with a bit of gunslinger in them to make it happen.

TC has the first quality in spades but pretty much none of the second. He's never had to play with his back against the wall, he's not a playmaker in the traditional sense of the word. Frankly, he's too old to ever be a playmaker. He will never be the guy that will make something happen when a play completely breaks down. Let's face it, he's 35 years old. He's not getting stronger and more athletic, what you see is what you get.

JC, is definitely more of the second. He's big and strong with a great arm. The way he runs the 2 minute offense is great. He can make plays with his arm and legs. His big problem is that he hasn't gotten to the point where he's really going through all his progressions and sometimes makes bonehead plays. Nevertheless, with my money I stick with JC long term. The first trait can be learned with time. Over time, he will become more comfortable in the offense and get his timing down. The second is not something you can learn. You've got to have that mentality, that "go for it" mentality that makes players like Brett Favre so awesome to watch. JC has that in him. There are risks sometimes...turnovers and bad throws will come but so will game winning drives.

To me JC if he reaches his potential will be like a Ben Roethlisberger. He'll have the strength, size, and mentality to run a game winning drive with 2 minutes on the clock and will be able to make smart throws most of the time.

Now, all that being said, I think you stick with TC this season. He's playing lights out ball and seeing Al Saunder's offense open up has been great. But for all you JC haters out there, I would really love to hear your opinions on TC the first time we're down by 2 scores late in a game, the opposing defense is playing a prevent and the only shot we have is thread passes into double coverage.

[SearchHorizon]

So you dont think the defense has played better since Collins has taken over. I wish I wasnt too lazy too look that up, because I think you are wrong.

Actually, I agree that the defense has played better. I disagree that offense this year has played better because of the defense. For example, take the first Dallas game. The defense gave the offense ball back twice at the end of the game -- the offense, despite the elevated level of play, couldn't pull off a win.

[tonyriggins]

Actually, I agree that the defense has played better. I disagree that offense this year has played better because of the defense. For example, take the first Dallas game. The defense gave the offense ball back twice at the end of the game -- the offense, despite the elevated level of play, couldn't pull off a win.

I though that you were disagreeing with me at the top of this page (4). The OP was saying the offense was playing better now because of D. And my point was you could turn it around say the D is better becausse of the offense play now. I think we are on the same page, you disagree with the OP also.

[Bigmuss1]

I'm in the crowd that believes Todd should continue to start as long as he's doing well on the basis that you don't want to mess with whatever chemistry the team has right now, but that said I'm also with the crowd that is adamant that JC is our starter next year and on regardless of how we finish this year. TC, while definitely worthy of our gratitude, is the backup.

This quote should make the redskin fan bible on how to react when your starter gets hurt and the backup does what he is supposed to do!!

[gortiz]

I don't post on this forum too frequently but I really wanted to chime in on this because I think people are getting too emotional about the choice between JC and TC because we're winning.

The way I look at the QB position I think there are 2 distinct qualities that each QB must possess to be a really good player in the NFL. First, they must be able to "manage games" and play within the offense. That means going through their progressions, reading defenses, and making the smart play. Secondly, they have to be play makers. When your back is against the wall and you've got to make a play, you need someone with a bit of gunslinger in them to make it happen.

TC has the first quality in spades but pretty much none of the second. He's never had to play with his back against the wall, he's not a playmaker in the traditional sense of the word. Frankly, he's too old to ever be a playmaker. He will never be the guy that will make something happen when a play completely breaks down. Let's face it, he's 35 years old. He's not getting stronger and more athletic, what you see is what you get.

JC, is definitely more of the second. He's big and strong with a great arm. The way he runs the 2 minute offense is great. He can make plays with his arm and legs. His big problem is that he hasn't gotten to the point where he's really going through all his progressions and sometimes makes bonehead plays. Nevertheless, with my money I stick with JC long term. The first trait can be learned with time. Over time, he will become more comfortable in the offense and get his timing down. The second is not something you can learn. You've got to have that mentality, that "go for it" mentality that makes players like Brett Favre so awesome to watch. JC has that in him. There are risks sometimes...turnovers and bad throws will come but so will game winning drives.

To me JC if he reaches his potential will be like a Ben Roethlisberger. He'll have the strength, size, and mentality to run a game winning drive with 2 minutes on the clock and will be able to make smart throws most of the time.

Now, all that being said, I think you stick with TC this season. He's playing lights out ball and seeing Al Saunder's offense open up has been great. But for all you JC haters out there, I would really love to hear your opinions on TC the first time we're down by 2 scores late in a game, the opposing defense is playing a prevent and the only shot we have is thread passes into double coverage.

well said ...

I never wanted this post to be about "should JC start when he comes back" but you made some good points.

[ceviker]

Most of us are not burying him; we're just saying that Todd should be the starter for the rest of the year. And if anyone thinks JC should start in the playoffs, they're out of their mind.

[tonyriggins]

This quote should make the redskin fan bible on how to react when your starter gets hurt and the backup does what he is supposed to do!!

But what if the backup exceeds the so called what he is suppose to do?

[taylorcoreskin]

Yep, like usual. When JC does well, he is awesome, and going to the probowl. When he does poorly, everyone around him sucks, but not him. Collins comes in and consistently picks defenses apart, and it's because everyone around him suddenly remembered how to play. Weird...

Dude, I predicted that people would respond this way before we even won the Bears game with Collins. I now realize that you can't expect very much from MOST of the posters on ES. I find it amazing that they fail to identify that Jason had the exact same offensive personnel around him. Amazing that our yards after the catch has significantly increased once Jason went down? Not really. Any knowledgable fan knows yards after the catch by a receiver are as much a result of physical ability as they are the accuracy of the quarterback. Jason just isn't accurate. He wasn't the most accurate quarterback at auburn and he isn't the most accurate quarterback on the team. I can't believe the redskins pulled the trigger to get this player in the first round.

Sure he's a great athlete. Being athletic isn't a prerequisite to being a successful quarterback. You guys are failing to mesure Campbell by what actually matters.

You guys need to start watching the game and see how Collins takes his drop and then gets it out just after he finishes taking the drop. I love how I can watch the skins play with my brother and predict when Collins gets the ball out just by looking at him. It's like "he takes his drop. OUT" The ball is out right after the completion of the drop.

You guys need to stop drooling in awe at Campbell's physical skills as an athlete and look at the skills he LACKS that are fundamental to the QB position.

[mcarey032]

It is like in Basketball, when a guy has his jump shot going you continue to give it to the hot hand until he goes absolutely cold. I really like Campbell, but I feel the best way for us to win is to keep Collins in their. Besides, it might actually create competition for the starting job which will make Jason work harder. I am not saying he wasn't working hard before, but I do feel that competition will get us better production from a position that we have had futile performances overall the last decade and a half.

[VuV]

I agree 100%.

The o-line is playing great, Caldwell has been a huge help and both Moss and Randel El have started every game during this streak.

Collins plays extremely safe...but he scares me every time he puts the ball in the air. Dude has one of the weakest arms I have seen. He is getting the job done no doubt, but I think 21 has a lot to do with that, not Todd Collins.

How come when JC fumbles on a sack he gets ripped apart on this board, but everyone seems to forget that Todd Collins did the same thing yesterday????

I don't think it is going to be an issue because JC isn't ready to come back yet, but if you take away his position you risk a lot of damage for the future.

[VuV]

Dude, I predicted that people would respond this way before we even won the Bears game with Collins. I now realize that you can't expect very much from MOST of the posters on ES. I find it amazing that they fail to identify that Jason had the exact same offensive personnel around him. Amazing that our yards after the catch has significantly increased once Jason went down? Not really. Any knowledgable fan knows yards after the catch by a receiver are as much a result of physical ability as they are the accuracy of the quarterback. Jason just isn't accurate. He wasn't the most accurate quarterback at auburn and he isn't the most accurate quarterback on the team. I can't believe the redskins pulled the trigger to get this player in the first round.

Sure he's a great athlete. Being athletic isn't a prerequisite to being a successful quarterback. You guys are failing to measure Campbell by what actually matters.

You guys need to start watching the game and see how Collins takes his drop and then gets it out just after he finishes taking the drop. I love how I can watch the skins play with my brother and predict when Collins gets the ball out just by looking at him. It's like "he takes his drop. OUT" The ball is out right after the completion of the drop.

You guys need to stop drooling in awe at Campbell's physical skills as an athlete and look at the skills he LACKS that are fundamental to the QB position.

Not sure you could point to four games in a row that Campbell started in that both Randol El and Moss were healthy...Can you???? NO, because it didn't happen. Randol El left both the Dallas and Tampa Bay losses early with injuries. So when JC was forced to win the game with his arm he was looking to? Caldwell has made some clutch catches on 3rd down...he wasn't even active for most of Jason's games...AND...probably most importantly...TODD WADE IS NO LONGER STARTING WITH COLLINS UNDER CENTER. Todd Wade is the high caliber tackle that was responsible for JC getting destroyed on the majority of his fumbles...Todd Wade...AKA...Vrable's B1tch (amongst others).

Look at both Cowboy games as a source of comparison between Campbell and Collins...The offensive production was pretty comparable. We put up 23 with campbell and 27 with collins...the difference on offense was the oline and Portis being able to run the ball. Both QB's had fumbles in those games and lets not forget that Collins got REAL lucky that PI was called because the interception that he through in the 1st quarter looked TERRIBLE (the receiver had no chance at getting to the ball).

The biggest difference between the two QB's has been the defensive support they are receiving. Again, look to the Cowboy games. We gave up 28 in the first game and 6 in the 2nd!!!! Was JC responsible for TO getting loose on every play in the 1st game????

Another difference, Shaun Suisham has played great since Collins has come in. He had missed 2 field goals in the Bears games before Collins took over that would have already had that game in control. He missed a field goal in the 1st Dallas game that would have changed the entire complexion of the end of that game. JC would not have been trying to force a throw to the end zone, they would have been kicking running it up the gut looking for a shot to tie the game.

[Skinem]

Truly Funny, Todd Collins is playing great and I'm hoping he continues to do so and takes us on a continued run for the Gold. I don't believe coming off injury that Jason would have the needed confidence in his knee to immediately watch what is going on downfield. The one and only thing I hope, is that Jason is picking up how effective the checkdown is when the long or intermediate play is not there, that is what i've seen at the games and truly watching. Collins dumps it off and gets the positive yardage. I like Collins as the backup now and in the future, but some folks forget there are 11 others on the defense that have a say in matters relevant to success, case in point... JC faced the number 1, 4, 6, 9, 11, 12, 13th and 18th ranked pass defenses in the NFL That's 4 in the top 10 and 4 more in the top 20 of the Game, not to mention the dropped passes in key situations during that span, The Early Giants game was lost by poor coaching and non-execution inside the 5 yard line and the GB game was lost by key turnovers from Moss and Portis. JC had the Skins in position to win every game he played in except the Patriots, and they did go 16-0. JC did make some horrible decisions (ala the early cowboys game) and at some very crucial times, (Man Elway and Farve never did that), but, he also put us in the position to win the game when it looked un-win-able. Todd Collins is a great story and I want him to take us to the Big Bowl, but, 2 of his 4 wins were against the 20th and 28th ranked pass defenses in the league with Clinton burning for more than 100 in two of the 4, and I'll take em all, but, Portis only went for 100 twice in all 12 games with JC. Seattle being 19th against the pass, I expect TC to thrash them very methodically, with the great poise he has shown, and for Jason to watch how he dumps it off when in trouble, adding the needed component to his Rocket. To the poster indicating his terrible accuracy in college as sometype of premonition, check his completion to Int %, while remembering he led his Auburn team to an undefeated season, While being selected MVP by the Coaches in the "easy" conferece we know as the SEC. Our Skins are set at QB for a long time barring more injury, and the decision to bring along Todd Collins with Al Saunders appears "in hindsight" to be a smart one. To All the Jason Doubters, when the team is rolling into the Playoffs... > I'll use foresight instead of the easy way and say Jason is gonna be a Pro-Bowler once the mechanics are down. Bring on Seattle!!!

:helmet:

[taylorcoreskin]

Look at both Cowboy games as a source of comparison between Campbell and Collins...The offensive production was pretty comparable. We put up 23 with campbell and 27 with collins...the difference on offense was the oline and Portis being able to run the ball. Both QB's had fumbles in those games and lets not forget that Collins got REAL lucky that PI was called because the interception that he through in the 1st quarter looked TERRIBLE (the receiver had no chance at getting to the ball).

Collins played so much better against Dallas than Jason did. Collins had 7.9 yards per pass play, Jason had 6.4. That's an astronomical difference. I'm really not going to pay much attention to posts like these since I said you would all attribute our 4 straight wins to the players around Collins before the Bears game made it to the half! You guys are just so predictable sometimes. I know Jason was the primary problem with this offense and I knew we'd win 4 straight when he went down - because he was a major contributor to our losses. Open your ****ing eyes and stop coming up with these predictable and dull excuses.

[heatman28]

Our defense is playing LIGHTS OUT and giving the O not only confidence, but good field position and extra snaps that undoublty is a major contributing factor to the success on offense the last 4 weeks.

Negative the defense has played well in ALL first quarters of this season's games until good ol' Gregg Williams decides to change the schemes for the second half and let the other team make a come back and win. If any of you haven't seen this all year long then you are completely blind to the game. I want Williams fired and out of DC!!!

[heatman28]

Truly Funny, Todd Collins is playing great and I'm hoping he continues to do so and takes us on a continued run for the Gold. I don't believe coming off injury that Jason would have the needed confidence in his knee to immediately watch what is going on downfield. The one and only thing I hope, is that Jason is picking up how effective the checkdown is when the long or intermediate play is not there, that is what i've seen at the games and truly watching. Collins dumps it off and gets the positive yardage. I like Collins as the backup now and in the future, but some folks forget there are 11 others on the defense that have a say in matters relevant to success, case in point... JC faced the number 1, 4, 6, 9, 11, 12, 13th and 18th ranked pass defenses in the NFL That's 4 in the top 10 and 4 more in the top 20 of the Game, not to mention the dropped passes in key situations during that span, The Early Giants game was lost by poor coaching and non-execution inside the 5 yard line and the GB game was lost by key turnovers from Moss and Portis. JC had the Skins in position to win every game he played in except the Patriots, and they did go 16-0. JC did make some horrible decisions (ala the early cowboys game) and at some very crucial times, (Man Elway and Farve never did that), but, he also put us in the position to win the game when it looked un-win-able. Todd Collins is a great story and I want him to take us to the Big Bowl, but, 2 of his 4 wins were against the 20th and 28th ranked pass defenses in the league with Clinton burning for more than 100 in two of the 4, and I'll take em all, but, Portis only went for 100 twice in all 12 games with JC. Seattle being 19th against the pass, I expect TC to thrash them very methodically, with the great poise he has shown, and for Jason to watch how he dumps it off when in trouble, adding the needed component to his Rocket. To the poster indicating his terrible accuracy in college as sometype of premonition, check his completion to Int %, while remembering he led his Auburn team to an undefeated season, While being selected MVP by the Coaches in the "easy" conferece we know as the SEC. Our Skins are set at QB for a long time barring more injury, and the decision to bring along Todd Collins with Al Saunders appears "in hindsight" to be a smart one. To All the Jason Doubters, when the team is rolling into the Playoffs... > I'll use foresight instead of the easy way and say Jason is gonna be a Pro-Bowler once the mechanics are down. Bring on Seattle!!!

:helmet:

Now this is a smart and accurate post! :applause:

[wbar3383]

I like the way Collins is playing, and I always root hard for the starter no matter what.

I rooted for Brunell, I rooted for Campbell, and I will root for Collins.

But lets keep this on an even keel. Todd Collins = 4 fumbles in 4 games.

This is the same thing people were bashing Jason for.

What is going on with our QB's and fumbles. Maybe its time we starting asking the QB Coach about his teaching techniques.

[wbar3383]

Collins played so much better against Dallas than Jason did. Collins had 7.9 yards per pass play, Jason had 6.4. That's an astronomical difference. I'm really not going to pay much attention to posts like these since I said you would all attribute our 4 straight wins to the players around Collins before the Bears game made it to the half! You guys are just so predictable sometimes. I know Jason was the primary problem with this offense and I knew we'd win 4 straight when he went down - because he was a major contributor to our losses. Open your ****ing eyes and stop coming up with these predictable and dull excuses.

You are a walking agenda.

No one takes you seriously because your opinion is borderline zealot.

Collins is a good game manager and is playing well, but he is not the reason we are in the playoffs.

The team is. Portis, Santana, Defense, and opponents crumbling.

You are the predictable one. Right now I classify you as a troll trying to push an agenda, using coincidence to further an arguement that you had a 50/50 shot at being right.

So sad. I repeat, no one takes you seriously now.

[SkinsfanFL]

Jason is one of the best young quaterbacks in the NFL. When Coach Gibbs calls for number 17 he, and the rest of the team will be ready...Who knows, Coach Gibbs might just wait til the Superbowl to give him his next start...17 after all, is his lucky number.

Way to go Skins, way to go!

HTTR

[fansince62]

Not sure you could point to four games in a row that Campbell started in that both Randol El and Moss were healthy...Can you???? NO, because it didn't happen. Randol El left both the Dallas and Tampa Bay losses early with injuries. So when JC was forced to win the game with his arm he was looking to? Caldwell has made some clutch catches on 3rd down...he wasn't even active for most of Jason's games...AND...probably most importantly...TODD WADE IS NO LONGER STARTING WITH COLLINS UNDER CENTER. Todd Wade is the high caliber tackle that was responsible for JC getting destroyed on the majority of his fumbles...Todd Wade...AKA...Vrable's B1tch (amongst others).

Look at both Cowboy games as a source of comparison between Campbell and Collins...The offensive production was pretty comparable. We put up 23 with campbell and 27 with collins...the difference on offense was the oline and Portis being able to run the ball. Both QB's had fumbles in those games and lets not forget that Collins got REAL lucky that PI was called because the interception that he through in the 1st quarter looked TERRIBLE (the receiver had no chance at getting to the ball).

The biggest difference between the two QB's has been the defensive support they are receiving. Again, look to the Cowboy games. We gave up 28 in the first game and 6 in the 2nd!!!! Was JC responsible for TO getting loose on every play in the 1st game????

Another difference, Shaun Suisham has played great since Collins has come in. He had missed 2 field goals in the Bears games before Collins took over that would have already had that game in control. He missed a field goal in the 1st Dallas game that would have changed the entire complexion of the end of that game. JC would not have been trying to force a throw to the end zone, they would have been kicking running it up the gut looking for a shot to tie the game.

nice post...but dealing with both sides of the obvious isn't what most folks are interested in.....you are spot on....the time will come this year or next when the defense plays down to its abilities, receivers are dropping the ball and TC has to make up a 14 pt deficit....won't happen...he's not built for that.

so let's enjoy the run...and wait til next season...barring an injury to Collins...to fret over how the Skins are punting away the future for a 37 year old! for he moment...let's applaud him...he's an important part of the overall team effort you point to!