Rate of ice melt shocks warming experts

[pjfootballer]

You expect me to believe that somebody can show that the north polar ice cap, shrank to 50% of the size of it's previously smallest ever, in a period of only 5 years, 800 years ago?

You got a link to the satellite images?

Don't be a jerk. I said I read it in an article in the Charlotte Observer. Go on line, sign up for the online paper and read it yourself. I was just adding a little to the conversation. I never said it was true, I never backed it and quite frankly I could give a rats ass about the polar ice cap. By the time it melts, I'll be dust.

[Larry]

There are hundreds of scientific methods that don't include satellite photos from 8 centuries ago. Ever heard of soil samples?

I'm quite aware that it's at least possible to make pretty good guesses, from indirect evidence, about what things were like when nobody was looking.

If reputable scientists claim that "800 years ago, the ice cap was smaller than it is now", then I'm willing to believe that he's at least constructed a theory that he believes in.

If, however, his statement is "800 years ago, it was this size, and 804 years ago, it was twice that size", then I've got trouble believing.

For example, I don't believe it's possible to claim that "this change took 5 years", without also being able to state exactly what year it was.

I don't think it's possible to claim that "point A and point B are less than 5 years apart, but I don't know what decade either A or B were in." If your uncertainty about when A was is plus or minus 100 years, and the uncertainty about B is 100 years, then the uncertainty about B-A has to be at least 100 years.

[thehogs]

You expect me to believe that somebody can show that the north polar ice cap, shrank to 50% of the size of it's previously smallest ever, in a period of only 5 years, 800 years ago?

You got a link to the satellite images?

Ice! drill down in ice and you will find the chemical history of the planet. Its pretty good for keeping a pretty clean record locked away. It will indicate the abundance of certain chemicals and the climatic temperatures at the time and give you an idea of how cold/warm an area was at different times. I dont know about 5 years but you dont need satellite images.

One problem with Greenland is that large bits of it has seasonal ice i.e. it melts then comes back so it does cause problems with trying to assess its history.

And of course there is written history which helps with scientific findings. The Vikings gave 'Greenland' the name we know it as today. Odd name if it was covered in ice at the time they landed. By about 1000 AD the vikings were farming in small pockets in Greenland but by 1200 AD conditons went down hill.

[The Evil Genius]

ANd as for the SUV argument, the methane from cattle flatulence and waste produces more greenhouse gases than cars, trucks and planes combined...but you never hear guys like Al Gore or Hollywood celebrities take on farmers. Hmmmm.....

I have seen that said a few times here and never a source was given. Does anyone know where I can find the data that supports those facts?

[Larry]

I have seen that said a few times here and never a source was given. Does anyone know where I can find the data that supports those facts?

The source is the back end of a cow.

^ Hint: this means "joke". Laugh, or I'll underline you.

[hokie4redskins]

The problem here is how FAST the current change appears to be happening, and whether or not we are causing the change to happen so FAST, and whether we are in a position to adapt to a massive FAST change in our weather.

WRONG! We're not trying to "adapt" to weather. We're trying to control it. And that's the problem with these global warming alarmists. They want billions of unnecessary dollars to fund their cause and they want government intrusion to enforce their agenda.

And how do you know these changes are happening faster now than during the Paleozoic, Jurassic, or Cretaceous periods? Can anybody prove the Earth has warmed faster now than when velociraptors were running around 85 million years ago? How do you know the Earth isn't just still recovering/melting from the last Ice Age 130,000 years ago? Maybe the current ice levels in the Arctic are above the average mean over 6 BILLION years.

But the fact that Greenland was once GREEN should at least open some eyes to the absurdity that is Global Warming hysteria.

THINK, man.

[alexey]

Don't be a jerk. I said I read it in an article in the Charlotte Observer. Go on line, sign up for the online paper and read it yourself. I was just adding a little to the conversation. I never said it was true, I never backed it and quite frankly I could give a rats ass about the polar ice cap. By the time it melts, I'll be dust.

As a respect to fellow posters please read the article we are discussing before posting.

Sometimes you can take away from something by adding to it.

[Larry]

And how do you know these changes are happening faster now than during the Paleozoic, Jurassic, or Cretaceous periods? Can anybody prove the Earth has warmed faster now than when velociraptors were running around 85 million years ago? How do you know the Earth isn't just still recovering/melting from the last Ice Age 130,000 years ago? Maybe the current ice levels in the Arctic is above the average mean over 6 BILLION years.

Well, now, there's a great argument: "It is impossible to know everything, for the entire history of the planet, therefore dumping half a billion tons of pollution into the atmosphere every single year must not only continue, but we should be increasing it".

After all, when it comes to pollution, it's only logical that the pollution must continue until after it's not only producing harm, but the harm must be proven to be the worst in the history of the planet.

Edit: Now that I think about it, I understand that the theory is that at one time, there was no liquid water in the surface of the Earth, because it was too hot. Therefore I guess your position would be that so long as there remains a single drop of water in the oceans, then things aren't as bad as they were a long time ago, therefore we should keep polluting?

After all, heaven forbid we stop polluting when the damage isn't the worst in the history of the Earth.

[alexey]

hokie4redskins,

Are you aware of the connection between extreme weather and Global Warming?

Also, can you summarize your general stance on this issue? You're jumping around and screaming a lot, but I cannot seem to detect an actual point of view behind all that... I know what you disagree with and things you can say to back that up. Yet you have not provided anything remotely resembling a coherent position on this.

[thehogs]

Can anybody prove the Earth has warmed faster now than when velociraptors were running around 85 million years ago?

Ice!

[Predicto]

WRONG! We're not trying to "adapt" to weather. We're trying to control it. And that's the problem with these global warming alarmists. They want billions of unnecessary dollars to fund their cause and they want government intrusion to enforce their agenda.

And how do you know these changes are happening faster now than during the Paleozoic, Jurassic, or Cretaceous periods? Can anybody prove the Earth has warmed faster now than when velociraptors were running around 85 million years ago? How do you know the Earth isn't just still recovering/melting from the last Ice Age 130,000 years ago? Maybe the current ice levels in the Arctic is above the average mean over 6 BILLION years.

But the fact that Greenland was once GREEN should at least open some eyes to the absurdity that is Global Warming hysteria.

THINK, man.

I do think. I think that thousands of presumably honest scientists are not deliberately lying to me. I think that their arguments appear to make sense and should be taken seriously, but are subject to reasonable scientific challenge as well. I think that natural climate change can and does happen, but this does not negate the possibility of abrupt man-made climate change either.

And I think that you are motivated more by your political allegiances than by any detailed study of the science behind this issue.

I also think that the reason that Greenland is called Greenland is not because it was green during any recent age, but because some areas around the southern fjords were green, and a Viking leader started a settlement there and wanted to get people to migrate to join his settlement, so he called it "Greenland" rather than "freaking enormous sheet of ice with a little bit of green at the bottom Land" like it deserved. This may be a myth, however.

The name Greenland comes from Scandinavian settlers. In the Icelandic sagas, it is said that Norwegian-born Erik the Red was exiled from Iceland for murder. He, along with his extended family and thralls, set out in ships to find the land that was rumoured to be to the northwest. After settling there, he named the land Grænland ("Greenland"), possibly in order to attract more people to settle there.[2] Greenland was also called Gruntland ("Ground-land") and Engronelant (or Engroneland) on early maps. Whether green is an erroneous transcription of grunt ("ground"), which refers to shallow bays, or vice versa, is not known. It should also be noted, however, that the southern portion of Greenland (not covered by glacier) is indeed very green in the summer, and was likely even greener in Erik's time because of the Medieval Warm Period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland

[hokie4redskins]

Well, now, there's a great argument: "It is impossible to know everything, for the entire history of the planet, therefore dumping half a billion tons of pollution into the atmosphere every single year must not only continue, but we should be increasing it".

What are you talking about, dude? I never said we should increase pollution so quit twisting my words.

I recycle as much as the next guy. But I'm not going to be forced to buy carbon offsets or be told which cars to drive.......which is exactly where we're headed with Al Gore's cult.

You want to save the planet? Find a cure for volcanic eruptions. One Vesuvius spews more carcinogens and CO2 (which is what we exhale, maybe we should just quit breathing to save the planet) into the atmosphere than every industrial revolution and every car ever driven in the HISTORY of mankind.

Wait until Yellowstone blows. What on Earth will Al Gore do then?

[alexey]

You want to save the planet? Find a cure for volcanic eruptions. One Vesuvius spews more carcinogens and CO2 (which is what we exhale, maybe we should just quit breathing to save the planet) into the atmosphere than every industrial revolution and every car ever driven in the HISTORY of mankind.

Wait until Yellowstone blows. What on Earth will Al Gore do then?

Are you saying something about amounts of CO2 released into the atmosphere by humanity? If so, what is it? Is it neglidgible? Is it something else? State your point.

[Predicto]

What are you talking about, dude? I never said we should increase pollution so quit twisting my words.

I recycle as much as the next guy. But I'm not going to be forced to buy carbon offsets or be told which cars to drive.......which is exactly where we're headed with Al Gore's cult.

You want to save the planet? Find a cure for volcanic eruptions. One Vesuvius spews more carcinogens and CO2 (which is what we exhale, maybe we should just quit breathing to save the planet) into the atmosphere than every industrial revolution and every car ever driven in the HISTORY of mankind.

Do you ever provide a link for any of your "scientific" assertions?

Wait until Yellowstone blows. What on Earth will Al Gore do then?

If that happens, 99% of us will die. I'm not in a particular hurry to get to that point, however.

[Larry]

Hey, it's hard to argue with the fact that, as some glaciers in Greenland and Switzerland retreat, in places where they've been permanently covered for years, that they expose human structures that were under the ice.

Makes it pretty convincing that yeah, this ice hasn't always been here.

[Predicto]

Hey, it's hard to argue with the fact that, as some glaciers in Greenland and Switzerland retreat, in places where they've been permanently covered for years, that they expose human structures that were under the ice.

Makes it pretty convincing that yeah, this ice hasn't always been here.

Absolutely. But that hardly answers every question, does it?

There is evidence that people used to farm all over areas in Iraq and North Africa that are now desert. Things do change.

But how fast do such changes happen? Do they happen all over the earth at the same time? Are we making them happen right now When They Might Not Otherwise Be Happening? Those are real questions.

[The Evil Genius]

Look it up if you want to...but large volcanic eruptions actually cause global cooling (via the haze effect).

[Predicto]

Look it up if you want to...but large volcanic eruptions actually cause global cooling (via the haze effect).

The effect also only lasts a year or so, because the soot that causes the cooling gets brought down with rain over time. But why rudely interfere with Hokie's fine talking point?

[hokie4redskins]

hokie4redskins,

Are you aware of the connection between extreme weather and Global Warming?

Also, can you summarize your general stance on this issue? You're jumping around and screaming a lot, but I cannot seem to detect an actual point of view behind all that... I know what you disagree with and things you can say to back that up. Yet you have not provided anything remotely resembling a coherent position on this.

My position is quite simple.

This Earth has existed for 6 billion years. Let's try to understand the enormity of that amount of time. If you converted 6 billion years into one 24 hour cycle, man as we know him today has been here for LESS than a TENTH of a second.

You give man way too much credit to presume that he has had that type of impact on a planet that has experienced multiple ice ages, multiple warming ages (that would make today look like another imminent ice age, you know, kind of like the ice age "scientists" predicted in the 1970's), meteors that make nuclear weapons look like a cherry bomb, volcanic eruptions, etc., over a 6 billion year time-frame........especially given the "blink of an eye" we've been here.

The Earth has been MUCH warmer than it is today. It has been MUCH colder. These cyclical changes are normal and natural and have been going on for billions of years. Given solar flares, the dynamic nature of Earth's magma, and countless other variables, any insinuation that man is responsible for changing weather patterns is preposterous.

To sum up, Global Warming hysteria will one day be remembered as the biggest scam in human history.

[thehogs]

If you take the conspiracy theory of 'just saying this to tax us' and that Global Warming is a scam perhaps the Vikings are a good example of how a tax conspiracy is totally irrelevant. The reason there are no Viking settlements is because the ice returned to that area and destroyed them. There is without doubt evidence that the world is warming, man-made or natural. There are islands in the Indian ocean close to disappearing, London is having to consider its flood defenses as in around 50 years time the current flood barriers wont be able to cope with the rate that sea levels are rising now. As with the Vikings, whether in New Orleans or Bangladesh, people will be faced with enormous choices about their habitat. This in turn will have equally enormous economic consequences and all the conspiracy theories people muster wont matter a damn.

[alexey]

My position is quite simple.

This Earth has existed for 6 billion years. Let's try to understand the enormity of that amount of time. If you converted 6 billion years into one 24 hour cycle, man as we know him today has been here for LESS than a TENTH of a second.

You give man way too much credit to presume that he has had that type of impact on a planet that has experienced multiple ice ages, multiple warming ages (that would make today look like another imminent ice age, you know, kind of like the ice age "scientists" predicted in the 1970's), meteors that make nuclear weapons look like a cherry bomb, volcanic eruptions, etc., over a 6 billion year time-frame........especially given the "blink of an eye" we've been here.

The Earth has been MUCH warmer than it is today. It has been MUCH colder. These cyclical changes are normal and natural and have been going on for billions of years. Given solar flares, the dynamic nature of Earth's magma, and countless of other variables, any insinuation that man is responsible for changing weather patterns is preposterous.

To sum up, Global Warming hysteria will one day be remembered as the biggest scam in human history.

Are you saying that at this point humanity does not posess the capability to obtain any kind of usable knowledge in this area?

[Enter Apotheosis]

Are you saying that at this point humanity does not posess the capability to obtain any kind of usable knowledge in this area?

I believe I can espouse all of hokie's posts in this thread into three words:

Ignorance is bliss.

[hokie4redskins]

Are you saying that at this point humanity does not posess the capability to obtain any kind of usable knowledge in this area?

I'm not trying to be a prick, man. But if you don't get what I'm saying at this point, then I don't know what to tell you.

[alexey]

I'm not trying to be a prick, man. But if you don't get what I'm saying at this point, then I don't know what to tell you.

I think I get what you're saying, but i just want to make sure. That is why I asked the question.

[hokie4redskins]

I believe I can espouse all of hokie's posts in this thread into three words:

Ignorance is bliss.

Espouse huh? So you agree with me then. COOL!

:thumbsup:

Try not to use too many big words there, bud.