Kilmer17 Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 120+years=overnight? okay...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posse81 Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Originally posted by riggo-toni There are several examples that clearly contradict this. Jewish people have been oppressed for centuries, yet invariably seem to rise to the upper echelons of the economy in nearly every country. A study was done on the supposedly long term deleterious socio-economic effects of the internment of Japanese-Americans. 25 years after internment ended, the average income of the survivors was 42% HIGHER than the national average. A close friend of mine did volunterr work back in the 80s with Caqmbodian refugees. The Cambodian holocaust at the hands of the Khmer Rouge was possibly the worst in history - maybe even worse than the Nazi campaign against the Jews. Slavery, genocide, starvation. And yet these people come here, work hard, insist their children get a quality education, and their children typically have ended up with a higher standard of living than the average American. Incidentally, African American women with a college degree earn more than white women with a college degree. Black African immigrants are the most highly educated ethnic group in America, with over 80% holding a college degree. And Afro-Caribbean immigrants have a higher average income than white Americans. Riggo, Point taken. However, dealing with slavery in the United States introduces a whole different set of dynamics than any of the examples you have listed. If another class of people were enslaved in this country for that length of time--we could compare the two. But we can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Hersh, I couldn't agree more with you, buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Kilmer, you are asking how long. IMHO, it's really only be since desegregation, not 120 years. The reason I say that is that people are able to develop a better understand of other backgrounds when they are exposed to those other backgrounds more and more frequently. Because of segregation, whites and blacks and other minorities weren't exposed to the way each other lived and the different cultural aspects. How long? Until we all understand each other and I don't think you could put a time table on it because it will take many generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posse81 Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 120+years=overnight? okay...... Actually yes. Tell me, how long did slavery last in this country? Someone was enslaved, slavery ended, they were told "go find a job" then people wouldn't hire them, so they have no money. It takes time, people don't get money just like that. In additon, how long did Jim Crow last? In addition, how long was it commonplace to descriminate? You do know that there was a time in the 20th century when blacks and whites could not use the same water fountains, bathrooms, go to the same schools. So it is not at all unreasonable that people today would descriminate against blacks in the NFL. Racism exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posse81 Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Originally posted by Hersh Kilmer, you are asking how long. IMHO, it's really only be since desegregation, not 120 years. The reason I say that is that people are able to develop a better understand of other backgrounds when they are exposed to those other backgrounds more and more frequently. Because of segregation, whites and blacks and other minorities weren't exposed to the way each other lived and the different cultural aspects. How long? Until we all understand each other and I don't think you could put a time table on it because it will take many generations. Thank you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaRock Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Geez yusuf, you sure to have a lot of time on your hands today. To respond to ahem..your post. I have not outted myself in anyway. If you have read any of my posts, you will see that I am not overlooking that there is a race issue, even today. It is people like you that will keep this grudge going on till the end of my days, and that is your choice. I want get into why there is discrimination when coming to a promotion, or what have you, because I don't want to start a whole other thing with you. I do not like you, and it has nothing to do with the color of your skin. It has to do with your attitude and mindset. take it what you will. My black friends know my attitude and they do not doubt for one second I would not jump all over anyone if I was around to hear someone call them a name, u know the one, but I will not for one second, hold my tongue, just because someone wants to take advantage of the blah "race card" and use this to their pathetic advantage. Yes, blah I'm sure there are high executive racist that hire a white person before a black person solely based on the color of their skins, but you know..it's because the executive is white!..if it were a black executive and so to speak immediatley felt their pain. they would hir the black candidate for the job!.. and don't tell me for one second they would not. None of my friends use the race card to their advantage and look down upon doing so. and then there is you. It is ok whatever you want to think about this issue and anything I am saying. I am only speaking the truth and I do believe you know it. Thanks for listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaRock Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 oh and by the way..the thing about the promotion or unfair advantage that blacks have in the business world should be positively taken care of or equaled out by the totally unfair rules that schools go by when regarding major test scores, and you know what I'm talking about. example..in michigan..not sure if bush pulled it, but black students automatically get such and such points just for being black. They get that AUTOMATICALLY! for doing nothing. While another person, white,asian, purple or blue who the hells cares may have the same score as them realistically but they edge the blue person out just because they get those extra points for doing nothing! Affirmative action is a crock too..So come on there are advantages to take care of your so called "discriminations" that happen in the corporate world. 2 wrongs do not make a right but don't come at me with this unfair c-r-a-p..come on ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDiplomat Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 It's not just slavery. The civil rights movement had an effect also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 jurgensen, Did you know that with the Michigan case that you are talking about that kids also got points just from being from a certain part of the US. So did Athletes and Legacy kids (ex. Our President got into Yale with a C average because his family had gone there) Did you also know that a study came out that showed people apply for a job with a "white sounding" name had a 50% greater chance of receiving a call back than a person with a "black sounding" name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaRock Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 LOL..good one..let's ask ourselves one question please..And why is it that that statistic is true??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsLegacy44 Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Originally posted by jurgensen22 oh and by the way..the thing about the promotion or unfair advantage that blacks have in the business world should be positively taken care of or equaled out by the totally unfair rules that schools go by when regarding major test scores, and you know what I'm talking about. example..in michigan..not sure if bush pulled it, but black students automatically get such and such points just for being black. They get that AUTOMATICALLY! for doing nothing. While another person, white,asian, purple or blue who the hells cares may have the same score as them realistically but they edge the blue person out just because they get those extra points for doing nothing! Affirmative action is a crock too..So come on there are advantages to take care of your so called "discriminations" that happen in the corporate world. 2 wrongs do not make a right but don't come at me with this unfair c-r-a-p..come on ! [/quote Are you serious ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaRock Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Yes I am..You do not think it is unfair for someone to have an advantage over someone regarding test scores just because of the color of their skins?..I believe that is unjust in itself. If an african american gets into a college just because the college needs to meet its race quota and there is another person, different of race, who worked just as hard,if not harder and does not get in because of that. That's another great one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsLegacy44 Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 I do think that affirmative action is a short term answer to a complex problem that has left a permanent stain on America's past. Just fifty some years ago, we Americans were legally allowed to discriminate against fellow Americans because of the color of their skin. Affirmative action isn't gonna erase what has already happened. However, it does help heal the wounds, and allows us to feel better about our unjust past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 The problem is that without a set period of time, this can go on forever. 10 million years from now that argument can still be used. Slavery was around for appx 150 years, less than 3000 people actually owned slaves, and the majority of Americans fought a war to stop the practice. I know it's not an instaant process. But, stating that slavery affects the hiring of blacks in the NFL is absurd. All schools give points to athlete, legacies, geographic areas. None of which use the race of a person as a factor. That ALONE is a violation of our laws. Just as if they accepted a white applicant over a black applicant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaRock Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Ok..well I guess I've never been in your shoes and go through the dirty looks and discrimination that you probably go through everyday. I'm sorry you have to go through that. After thinking about it overnight, I guess it is ok for the Affirmative Action and some of the other things..I apologize for any hurt or bad remarks I said. I just got to thinking about alot of stuff that I have seen movies,real life, ect. and I do realize, but do not feel, what blacks go through every day. Again, sorry for hatred vibe I put out on this thread. I just had to put myself in your shoes and think about it for a lil..Sorry to yusuf for my crazy *** thoughts yesterday, was just in a bad mood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsLegacy44 Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 The problem is that without a set period of time, this can go on forever. 10 million years from now that argument can still be used. Lets wait till there are quantitative signs of equality, before we dismiss the logic behind affirmative action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Apology accepted Jurgy, er Arrington or whomever. We all have days like that sometimes. Funny thing is, I don't agree with affirmative action. However, I do think more creative/effective and less divisive ways to deal with institutional racism need to be implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB81 Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Affirmative action and "logic" should never appear in the same sentence. There is nothing logical about it. And, as to "quantitative signs of equality," that is something that is so subjective, no one will ever truly agree on it. Affirmative action finds its foundation in the belief that most people are inherently racist...I do not feel this way. I have encountered numerous racist persons in my life, and they all had one thing in common: Their propensity for judging people soley (or in part) on the basis of race was a biproduct of being intellectually bankrupt. In most cases, their complete lack of intelligence or the ability to reason kept them from ascending to a position of power...one that would allow them to effectively exercise their racist practices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theposse Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 I think regarding affirmative action, it's obviously not ideal as a solution to any problem. But I think it's probably necessary. People love to think of America as a place where someone can rise from poverty through hard work and talent to do whatever they want to do. And that's a good ideal for which to strive. But the reality is, most people generally follow in the (general)footsteps of their parents and friends/neighbors. For one example, my parents have graduate degrees, and started me reading early, and there was never really a question of whether I'd go to college or not, it was just which college. I don't know the percentage, but most people in my HS also went to college. On the other hand, there are many neighborhoods (many of them black) where most parents haven't gone to college, and most of a child's peers aren't going to college, and this makes it more likely that the child won't either. And of course, while not a necessity, going to college tends to help people get higher paying jobs. Another example of the apple not falling far from the tree is our last election, a president's son vs. a senator's son. Anyway, the point is most of the time the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. So, given that it has only been say 4-5 generations since slavary, it's not that long ago. And as others point out, it's a lot less than that since segregation "ended". I put ended in quotes because drive around practically any American city and neighborhoods are still clearly defined by race. Or in schools you will usually see that many/most of blacks and Asians hang out with people of their own race rather than a random mix. So, the idea is affirmative action kind of helps push over this line. Obviously some blacks have a better environment to help them along than others, but the fact is that on average, they have a worse environment than whites. So, affirmative action says yes, let's take that kid with the slightly lower test scores who is black, and that will help so that his kid or grandkid will need less or no help. I remember senior year in HS someone telling me how a particular black person got into a school I hadn't, and I had better grades and better test scores than her, and that it wasn't fair. But, it didn't bother me because I didn't work that hard for my test scores or grades. I got into most of the schools I applied to and that was fine. Going back to the stat I brought up in this thread early on: 120 years ago, blacks made 61% less than whites. Today, they still make 61% less than whites. Without any assistance, this number is not going to change, or will do so VERY slowly. While it's got its problems, affirmative action would help cut this number, and then eventually there wouldn't be a need for it once things even out more (because kids would tend to fall into the same income categories as their parents). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 "Lets wait till there are quantitative signs of equality, before we dismiss the logic behind affirmative action." Fine, but who decides what a quantitative sign of equality is? ANd do we have to set that in advance? "Going back to the stat I brought up in this thread early on: 120 years ago, blacks made 61% less than whites. Today, they still make 61% less than whites. Without any assistance, this number is not going to change, or will do so VERY slowly. While it's got its problems, affirmative action would help cut this number, and then eventually there wouldn't be a need for it once things even out more (because kids would tend to fall into the same income categories as their parents)." So Affirmative Action programs havent helped at all. Maybe we should look at other methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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