Getting Out of Hand?

[The Sisko]

Jurgenson22, I've been trying my level best to get through this thread without calling you an idiot, but I'm telling you it's getting tougher and tougher every minute. How's about I settle for calling you a moron instead....and mind you, I'm not one to use that type of language on this board. However, in your case I find it completely justified.

Silly us, if we could only figure out that the solution to the problem of racism is for us to stop bringing it up!! Wow, how could we have been so stupid ?

Too bad we didn't have you around during the slavery years to solve that problem for us too. D@mn, our ancestors could have been free all along if they'd just had you around to tell them to stop b!tching and moaning and trying to escape.

Do me this one favor. Ask some of your Black friends (if they really exist anyway) if they've ever experienced racism in any form in their adult lives only. You may be surprised by the answer.

You strike me as one of those folks who doesn't see a problem unless it affects you personally.

[Joey T]

Such a dumb topic.

One day the NFL will have a black owner, then let's see who he/she hires as a GM & HC:high:

Wo be unto the first black NFL owner who fires a black HC/GM and hires a white HC/GM:doh:

Right now, the onus is on white owners. I can't wait to see the other side of the coin:cool:

Chill out my brothers/sisters.:gus:

[Montilar]

Yusuf that was uncalled for.

I generally agree with Jurgeson. From experience. Niether he nor I say that there isn't racism still occurring. There is.

What he said is that maybe the issues would get resolved FASTER if it wasn't brought up every time some perceived slight comes up, or as a defense. It would have MORE impact if it wasn't used as an excuse every time someone feels slighted or thinks they can get an advantage. Or that's how I take it.

Over my fifteen years at my job, we've had several people get fired for not doing the job, whether it be laziness or incompetence. Or outright forging documents. Both white and black people, in roughly equal numbers. But many if not most of the black colleagues who were fired, immediately began playing the race card. In fact the latest one (about three years ago) began playing the race card BEFORE he got fired. He figured if he accused his immediate boss and a colleague who had criticized him of being racist and making racist remarks, then their word couldn't be held against him. (The one colleague was racist because he was a civil war buff. :doh: )

His immediate supervisor was racist because he supposedly made a comment at a meeting that he took offense to. I was at the meeting as were about 8 or 10 others. The comment had NOTHING to do with him or race. PERIOD. What made it hilarious was he drove to and from the meeting with the supervisor. Yet said NOTHING about the comment at the meeting or to the supervisor afterward. After the weekend went by, he drove into the main office (about two hours away), bypassed our section and the supervisors there, and went straight to personnel and lodged a racist complaint. again, he thought that would make their criticism of him invalid. I have no clue how I avoided being in the complaint; I got into it with him over my evaluations of his work every time I trained him. (The colleague accused of being racist had to calm his ranting butt down one time I gave him his evaluation.)

But because he was playing the race issue, the office took almost two years to fire him when he was NOT doing his job. Saying he was out doing the work when he was making up the paperwork and sending it in forged by him. It wasn't he couldn't do the job; it was he wouldn't do it right. He TOTALLY screwed up one court case; I had to take it over again; he "lost" the documents and evidence.....

I also liked the college in Fredericksburg showing reverse discrimination a few years ago. I haven't been down there for 10 or so years but when I was, a math professor ran an article in the free lance star venting his disgust at the college. Apparently he applied for a math professor position. He recieved a "no thank you' from the college. Everyone who applied for the position recieved a "no thank you" response. They didn't hire anyone for the spot. Why? because not one application came from a black professor. They didn't want a good math professor. All they wanted was a BLACK math professor. That's BS.

[Brave]

"Cochran has a bad name, probably deservingly so, because of OJ, but he's fighting a battle that needs to be fought. It's easy to criticize someone like him every time he ****es about something, but if it weren't for people actively fighting the status quo nothing would ever change.

Having said that, the system they came up with is idiotic and accomplishes nothing. I can't say I have a better plan, other than Black ownership, but this experiment is clearly a failure." - DeathByLinebacker

Well said, DBL, though I might be less inclined to cut Cochran so much slack. Surely he is smart enoughto come up with something better than this farce of a rule, which I still can't believe the NFL agreed to. The backlash is likely to make things much worse before they get better.

I wonder why Cochran doesn't get involved in the NBA? Surely there is disparity there with the percentage of players/coaches. Or Soccer. Or MAJOR college football. Wonder how many former Eastern block guys are coaching in the NHL. Why are men coaching in women's basketball?

This will NEVER work. If Cochran simply wanted to raise awareness then I suppose he's been successful. If he was really trying to find some type of workable solution then he has failed in a big way.

[DaRock]

You prove my point exactly. Slavery happened a very long time ago and you still think it affects you in some way,shape or form. You didn't go through anything compared to what your ancestors did and you use that to an advantage even now. It's ridiculous. Racism happens to everyone, it's not just blacks. So don't give me your crying story, please.

[DaRock]

Yes, that was what I was trying to get across Montilar. Thanks for clearing it up for "any misunderstandings"..lol. That is what I am saying, the race card is played 80% of the time on any situation that would help out in a way for them, taking ADVANTAGE of it is exactly what I mean. I am not racist at all, but do find it to be PRETTY SORRY for people to play that card just because they can and take hurt and sorrow, so they say, for something that happened not to them, but there ancestors. Yes, I would be pissed if that happened to my ancestors, but I would not take the heroic treatment that your ancestors should be getting taking for putting up with all that crap, instead you do. If it weren't such a common thing, the race issue bs, I would not feel like it is being taking advantage of. It's just pathetic to me.

[DaRock]

Yusuf:.."Too bad we didn't have you around during the slavery years to solve that problem for us too. D@mn, our ancestors could have been free all along if they'd just had you around to tell them to stop b!tching and moaning and trying to escape."..Dude..I WILL call you an idiot..What a crock. It seems to me like you are getting offended because you are one, in fact, that takes advantage of this race deal. For you to say that I would want slaves to stop b****** and moaning is ridiculous. I would never wish harm on anyone. All I am saying is that instead of playing the "race" card every chance, take responsibility for your actions and don't blame everything for that!..Latez.

[TennesseeCarl]

One of the things about the Internet that makes it so valuable is that we can discuss some of the more difficult issues in our national life with relative 'faceless' anonymity (at least it used to be 'faceless' until Yusuf started that 'Show Yourself' thread).

Even with the modest protection the web offers, racism is almost impossible to get a handle on. Tempers get out of control quickly and the name-calling starts.

Are there times when African-Americans wrongly blame racism for every slight? Absolutely. Are many African-Americans focused on race and it's effect on their lives? Sure. I've got an idea that if I were African-American, I'd be wondering every time I didn't get a job if that were the reason. It must be very frustrating. How do you know when you're being effected by a decision based on merit or one on race?

Right now I have a bit role in our local theatre guild's production of To Kill A Mockingbird (I haven't been in a play since elementary school). To get some ideas for costumes (I'm one of the guys in the lynch mob that confronts Atticus Finch) from 1935 Alabama, I did a google search on 'lynching'. It pulled up numerous photos of smiling mobs gathered around the bodies of dead black men.

I expected they'd all be a buncha redneck rubes. But they were all pretty much well dressed - often wearing suit and ties. These weren't the backwoods trash I anticipated....they were merchants...teachers (perhaps)...town officials (perhaps).

And it wasn't so very long ago. So if African-Americans act if they might distrust the motives of folks making decisions about their lives, can we blame them?

For what it's worth, I think it's positive that we at least talk about the issues. You can't fix a problem that no one will admit exists.

[Posse81]

Originally posted by jurgensen22

You prove my point exactly. Slavery happened a very long time ago and you still think it affects you in some way,shape or form. You didn't go through anything compared to what your ancestors did and you use that to an advantage even now. It's ridiculous. Racism happens to everyone, it's not just blacks. So don't give me your crying story, please.

I could not disagree with this more. Slavery absolutely, DIRECTLY affects African Americans today (and no, I am not African American and it does not affect me). If a certain class of people are economically oppressed for a long period of time, that opression affects generations of people. Its takes several generations to work their way out of suc economic hardship. So slavery ended and people expect those affected to immediately integrate? You think it happens that fast? It takes many, many years before a family whose forefathers were enslaved to work thier way to a point where they can provide for their children's college education.

And yes, racism does happen to everyone, but to say that it happens to whites as much as it happens to blacks is ludircous.

People cry about racism every time it happens, because it will not stop otherwise. I heard a good analogy about this exact thing: If you are getting your a** beat in a tackle football game, you don't come back by playing touch. Unfortunately, it has come to this.

[DaRock]

Hmm..let's see ..does an african american feel more comfortable in a white neighborhood..notice I have to say african american just so noone will FREAK OUT and notice I call myself white..ok..anyhow..than a white person is in a black neighborhood?..you do the math. ..That was a good movie by the way..but understandably sad.

[GB81]

Just a fact that warranted mentioning: If you separated out black Americans into their own single country, it would be the 10th richest nation in the world. So, 12% of our nation, and in your opinion the most repressed 12%, would be the 10th richest country in the world.

[CounterTre]

This a pasted post from The NFCE Rantatorium....

I read this today and it makes me want to laugh and hit someone at the same time.

COCHRAN, MEHRI CALL OUT MILLEN

In a statement issued Monday, lawyers Johnnie Cochran and Cyrus Mehri criticized Lions president Matt Millen for his failure to comply with the spirit of the league's new minority hiring guidelines.

"What Millen has done is tainted the process to the point where no minority candidate wants to enter the ring just to be used," Mehri said. "It was completely avoidable if the Lions set a tone of an open and inclusive process, which they didn't run.

"We're saying the situation is not irreparable," Mehri added. "Matt Millen doesn't own the team. The Fords own the team. They could step in and do something. The process isn't over until it's over." (Thanks, Yogi.)

As we recently have reported, the league will sanction the Lions for its failure to honor the new guidelines. Without such action, any team can skirt the requirements merely by picking their next coach before the current one is fired, and by making it known via leaks that they've already gotten their man -- thereby scaring away any minority candidates.

Ironically, the NFL's efforts to correct the chronic problem of race bias against head coaching candidates could give Cochran and Mehri their first piece of concrete evidence to prove that a bias exists, if the NFL doesn't act against the Lions.

In cases involving allegedly illegal employment decisions, having no guidelines is far better for an employer than having guidelines that are ignored and/or manipulated. If Cochran and Mehri ever land a client who wishes to sue over this, they'll be able to point to the NFL's failure to penalize the Lions for fudging the guidelines as persuasive circumstantial evidence of bias.

I'm all for increasing the opportunities for minorities to get their feet in the door to the good ole boys club of NFL management, but it seems pretty stupid to just go through the motions if a team sees their" holy grail" in the Coaching world become available. Dan Snyder is no racist, but he would be getting sanctioned for seeing Spurrier and jumping at it.

Dallas could be in trouble too. Everyone and their brother knew Parcells was the man before Campo was even fired (the leak about "the meeting"), yet Dallas brought in D Green (correct me if I'm wrong here) in a token interview if I ever saw one. Heck ANYONE else who came in was token interview made for the benefit of this stupid rule. Make the minority interviews a requirement if there are going to be open auditions for the job, but if the team sees their savior ahead of time and drops everything they're doing to get the guy, then there shouldn't be a requirement to interview other people because their skin is darker To me that's more insulting to the guy getting interviewed. If the team interviews one guy for the job then I don't see how you can cry racism. Tunnel vision maybe, but racism no way.

The last aspect that hasn't been talked about is beating the rest of the pack to a hot commodity. A guy like Parcells or Mooch is going to be so high in demand that a team relly needs to shed all other options and go full bore to get that guy as fast as possible before anyone else nabs them up. Put simply, Cochran's approach just doesn't work.

[DaRock]

Affirmative action anyone?....

[Posse81]

Originally posted by GGB81

Just a fact that warranted mentioning: If you separated out black Americans into their own single country, it would be the 10th richest nation in the world. So, 12% of our nation, and in your opinion the most repressed 12%, would be the 10th richest country in the world.

This doesn't really say much. Of course they would be among the richest because they live in the US. That does not in any way mean they are getting a fare shake here because if you put it in relative terms, Americans are richer than most of the rest of the world. But how exactly does that dispute the notion that they are not repressed when you put them againt the rest of Americans? We are in no way talking about the rest of the world, we are talking about America.

[gridironmike]

Like Tags said in his state of the league, there is NOTHING wrong with hiring the guy you want, especially when he has a proven track record. Interviewing may give you some insight to other ideas and opinions, but if you're set on someone and they are available, go after them. Very simple.

[Posse81]

Originally posted by gridironmike

Like Tags said in his state of the league, there is NOTHING wrong with hiring the guy you want, especially when he has a proven track record. Interviewing may give you some insight to other ideas and opinions, but if you're set on someone and they are available, go after them. Very simple.

For the record, I agree completely with this as I have said earlier on this thread. It is a flawed remedy. However, the problem exists and I think thats obvious.

[GB81]

That stat was brought up in the context of the discussion of slavery and how the ills of slavery still needed to be rectified. I would never attempt to argue that there is no longer racism in America...I have seen too much to make that claim. However, when people bring up slavery in these arguments, I get upset. Slavery was an awful, wholly reprehensible blemish on American history...but in a constructive conversation about race in the 21st century, it has little to no place. The vast majority of Americans in the 18th through 19th centuries did not own slaves, and the great majority of Americans alive today are not related to anyone who owned slaves. If we are going to discuss race in modern America and try to place white Americans in a position in which they still must repay a debt hundreds of years old, I think we will reach an unfortunate impasse.

[DaRock]

Well put G!..also..that's on any issue..

[Kilmer17]

Im waiting for some idiot white lawyer to sue the league insisting that white cornerbacks be given workouts before black cornerbacks are hired.

[Posse81]

Originally posted by GGB81

That stat was brought up in the context of the discussion of slavery and how the ills of slavery still needed to be rectified. I would never attempt to argue that there is no longer racism in America...I have seen too much to make that claim. However, when people bring up slavery in these arguments, I get upset. Slavery was an awful, wholly reprehensible blemish on American history...but in a constructive conversation about race in the 21st century, it has little to no place. The vast majority of Americans in the 18th through 19th centuries did not own slaves, and the great majority of Americans alive today are not related to anyone who owned slaves. If we are going to discuss race in modern America and try to place white Americans in a position in which they still must repay a debt hundreds of years old, I think we will reach an unfortunate impasse.

Youre right, the vast majority of Americans in the 18th and 19th centuries did not own slaves. But the vast majority of black Americans in the 18th and 19th centuries WERE slaves--and that is the issue we are dealing with.

I don't know that anyone has said anything about repaying debts, I know I have not even alluded to that.

People--regardless of race--cannot pull themselves out of such repression in such a short period of time, it takes much longer. And I'm not making excuses, I am simply trying to express the level of repression against the time frame we are discussing.

[Kilmer17]

How long then? I dont know the answer myself, but if 120+ years is not enough, lets state what is.

[Posse81]

In the grand scheme of things, it is not nearly enough time. I think some here are underestimating the process and how slow it is. Jim Crow was an extended form of slavery. The mindset was still there for many years following JC. Things are much better now obviously, but I think for people to expect change overnight is unfair. And the sad part is--and I am not talking about anybody on here--people prefer to ignore the repression and take to calling some blacks and minorities "lazy". Amazing.

[Riggo-toni]

Originally posted by Posse81

I could not disagree with this more. Slavery absolutely, DIRECTLY affects African Americans today (and no, I am not African American and it does not affect me). If a certain class of people are economically oppressed for a long period of time, that opression affects generations of people. Its takes several generations to work their way out of suc economic hardship

There are several examples that clearly contradict this. Jewish people have been oppressed for centuries, yet invariably seem to rise to the upper echelons of the economy in nearly every country. A study was done on the supposedly long term deleterious socio-economic effects of the internment of Japanese-Americans. 25 years after internment ended, the average income of the survivors was 42% HIGHER than the national average. A close friend of mine did volunterr work back in the 80s with Caqmbodian refugees. The Cambodian holocaust at the hands of the Khmer Rouge was possibly the worst in history - maybe even worse than the Nazi campaign against the Jews. Slavery, genocide, starvation. And yet these people come here, work hard, insist their children get a quality education, and their children typically have ended up with a higher standard of living than the average American.

Incidentally, African American women with a college degree earn more than white women with a college degree. Black African immigrants are the most highly educated ethnic group in America, with over 80% holding a college degree. And Afro-Caribbean immigrants have a higher average income than white Americans.

[Hersh]

First off, this board should be applauded for actually talking about a tough and sensitive issue. To often problems aren't solved because people are afraid to be labeled in one way or another. Having said that, this thread would be a lot better if people respected each others opinion and worked to change someones opinion through a solid argument rather than name calling or generalizations.

I think that everyone here agrees that racism is alive and well in this country. Having gone to school in the south and having inlaws in the south I can confirm that it's still there. I think that people here understand that racism is not limited to coming from whites and being directed at blacks. I also think people here might agree that as a society we've become entirely too sensitive and that may very well be something that stops us from making progress in different issues including race relations.

To me, there seems to be a legitimate complaint that black coaches are being pass up on for some reason. Maybe they all had awful interviews, who knows. But they do frequently get passed up and there should be some discussion as why.

[The Sisko]

Hmm..let's see ..does an african american feel more comfortable in a white neighborhood..notice I have to say african american just so noone will FREAK OUT and notice I call myself white..ok..anyhow..than a white person is in a black neighborhood?..you do the math.

I think you just "outed" yourself with this statement. I've been to many white neighborhoods where I felt like my life might be in danger. I've also felt that way in a lot of Black neighborhoods. The opposite is true of both as well, that is that I've felt perfectly safe in both types of neighborhoods also. The difference between us is that I don't attribute the relative safety of a given neighborhood solely to the color of the occupants.

I fully understand that there are those who use the race card to dodge the consequences of their own laziness, lameness, or whatever you want to call it. However, the fact that those folks use the race card doesn't mean that there are many diligent hardworking types who do their jobs well and yet get screwed over because of their race when it comes to promotions, hiring etc. Because the first type of person exists does not in any way make the protestations of racism of the second type any less valid.

As I have said a couple of times before, I don't like the way that Cochran and Co. are going about things but the NFL's hiring/promotion practices of Black coaches and F.O. personnel has been atrocious and needs to change. I don't have a problem with any candidate White, Black, Blue, Green or any other color who is more qualified getting a HC/F.O. job over a lesser qualified candidate of any color. So, I can't fault Jerrah for example for hiring the Tuna since he's proved over and over again that he's exceptionally qualified to be a HC over any other candidate available at the time. However, when you have losers like Al Groh, Rich Kotite, Dave Wannstedt and others getting second chances, I think it's pretty difficult to argue that merit was the sole yardstick used to gauge prospective coaches. Likewise, if Ozzie Newsome were White, he'd have been hired away from Baltimore as someone else's GM years ago.

The tone of my first post on this was a bit angry but I think deservedly so and I don't apologize for it. People like Jurgy would have us believe that because they don't see a problem it doesn't exist. Or, that because some cry wolf others who have been legitimately damaged shouldn't protest.