Roy Williams decision to stay in school is 'Final' according to his mom

[Mad Mike]

Gurode and Fonoti were two top guards in the draft, and the only two I know the Skins were interested in. They both were drafted no more than 2-3 picks from each other, and no where near our pick in the second round.

We drafted 23rd last year, If we drafted 13th like this year we would have gotten one of them. Try to keep up.

If we had played the Eagles as our last game nobody would be claiming that.

Actualy we played them third to the last game and our offense did pretty well they got 2 sacks for 7 yards on us we got 2 sacks for 10 yards on them. Over all our offensive stats were prety even with philly except for our passing yards per attempt. We got 5.6, they got 7. Hmmmm I woounder how it would have looked if we had a speedy wideout? Try to argue with facts.:shootinth

[Luca Brasi]

ASF, once again you have entirely too much time on your hands. Seriously, you should try to get out sometime or something.

It's quite ammusing how some on this board take the "knowledgeable, responsible and conservative" side and claim that the only way to build a championship team is to shore up all of your $ into the O-line. Quite honestly we can't afford to put very much more money into the line considering who our tackles are. The "you can't throw the ball to your star wide receiver if your quarterback is running for his life" argument is getting a little old as well. And then we can continue pointless argument by saying "if the receivers didnt' take so long to get open then the qb could release the ball before having to run for his life".

No one is suggesting that we draft 2 wr's and sign a couple more in FA. The simple fact is there are many positions that have to be addressed, and WR is as much of one as OL, DL and S. And if you disagree with me, just wait until March and see what happens. And then I'm sure all of the "conservatives" will start screaming about how stupid our coach and front office are, and that Dan Snyder is the worst owner in football.

And if I'm wrong, then ASF will have another thread that he can post a link to in the future to show how he was right and others were wrong. :jerkoff:

[Mad Mike]

Great argument ASF. We can never get somone that good so why bother trying. :shootinth

As for your list of great predictions and observations I'll just remind you of this one "I was the first to challenge Marvin Lewis for underachieving" and remind you that it was me who said it's stupid to try to judge him by pre-season play. And where is our D now? #5!!!! I think that prety much says it all.:laugh:

[Victort]

Heard on the local (Dallas) sports talk show last night that Houston is floating information into Austin that if Roy Williams delares for the draft, they will select him at #3.

Pretty hard to pass up a guaranteed 12 mil. contract and it's very doubtful that he will improve his draft position by staying.

As a Longhorn fan I hope he stays, but the #3 overall pick is hard to pass up.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by Mad Mike

Great argument ASF. We can never get somone that good so why bother trying. :shootinth

Actually, I believe the expression is, "A bird in hand is worth two in the bush." Price is the bird in hand. The mythical "burner WR with hands who can catch 50+ passes in his first year out of college" is the two in the bush. (Drafting WRs "like" Owens and Harrison is the unicorn in the bush.)

As for your list of great predictions and observations I'll just remind you of this one "I was the first to challenge Marvin Lewis for underachieving" and remind you that it was me who said it's stupid to try to judge him by pre-season play. And where is our D now? #5!!!! I think that prety much says it all.:laugh:

Where the defense is *now* is a longer debate. (We had top 5 defensive talent, so don't expect me to fawn over a top 5 rating yardage rating, especially with such a terrible points ranking.)

But there's no question that the defense massively underachieved early in the season.

Lest you forget, one of the big reasons the defense improved this year is because Lewis stopped being an idiot about how to use Champ. Early in the year, Lewis broke with proud Redskins CB tradition (always put our superstar CB on the superstar WR) and decided to put Champ on the slot WR (whoever the other team put in the slot on a play), and also used a lot of zone coverages (which diluted our man coverage strength at CB, and exposed our weakness at safety). It was this strategy (and also using LaVar at DE) that I was apoplectic about.

Lewis finally started using Champ as I (and others) suggested, and now you want to give the credit to Lewis?

Also, one reason I opposed using LaVar at DE was the injury risk of being beaten up by large OTs. My Tivo reviews at the time showed LaVar being specifically targeted by the OT and not just blocked, but driven into the ground. Is it any surprise that LaVar did get injured (couldn't even close his fist) and seemed to lose some of his legendary open-field tackling skill?

My greatest fear about LaVar was that pummeling at DE would permanently degrade his remarkable open-field tackling speed and ferocity. Suddenly this year we saw a lot of missed open-field tackles by LaVar. People see that as "playing out of control", but I've wondered if LaVar lost (at least temporarily) some of his agility due to being beat up, making him less able to change direction and thus more likely to miss tackles. Obviously some of LaVar's problem was from his inability to close his fist, but I fear the problem was a more fundamental loss of agility -- and I can only hope it was temporary.

Players hate to talk about their injuries, so I don't expect LaVar to say, "Man, I was so beat up week after week, it hurt just to make turns in hallways." All I can go on is what I saw in the games. And LaVar in the open field was not the LaVar I know.

Please tell me why I should be in awe of Lewis for subjecting our franchise player entering 2002 to constant physical abuse at the DE spot, where he was overmatched and beaten physically week after week. Please tell me -- when the predictable result of this is not only short-term injury, but long-term elimination of LaVar's most essential skills (ferocious open-field tackling) -- why I should be praising Marvin Lewis for this stupidity.

[Cskin]

Might I draw up the white flag? Can we put an end to this useless blather?

I've grown so tired of the "beating one's chest" and "proclaiming Braveheart-like freedom speeches". Hindsight is always 20/20, anyone ever hear of that? Additionally, can't just about any opinion be "altered" to create the perception of being correct?

Let's move on, wait until April, and assess where we are then. Court adjourned!!!

[Utah]

I have to agree with Cskin here. However, Cskin, its ASF were dealing with here. I think he would argue with a STOP sign if given a chance.

ASF, you need to learn more about football. The real life stuff. Your video game mentality makes you appear to be a complete idiot. You can't be a complete idiot, your a Redskins fan.:cool:

If I were you, I would start asking questions and try and learn from those who know what it is their talking about when it comes to the game of football. Find someone you respect and listen. Ask questions and go and learn about this great game. Understand the strategy of the game.

This board could be used that way if you asked the questions. The problem is you seem to think your points are valid due to your time spent watching the games. However, as with most things in life, it is alot easier said then done. Especially in Pro Football.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by UtahRedskins

ASF, you need to learn more about football. The real life stuff. Your video game mentality makes you appear to be a complete idiot. You can't be a complete idiot, your a Redskins fan.:cool:

If I were you, I would start asking questions and try and learn from those who know what it is their talking about when it comes to the game of football. Find someone you respect and listen. Ask questions and go and learn about this great game. Understand the strategy of the game.

This board could be used that way if you asked the questions. The problem is you seem to think your points are valid due to your time spent watching the games. However, as with most things in life, it is alot easier said then done. Especially in Pro Football.

Well, if it isn't the Sta-Puff Marshmallow Man, gracing us with his vague, puffy enlightenment.

Here's a question: are you even aware that your tired Lombardi trophy signature is a rip-off from my Redskin Park visit last August? Not that I mind, but it's funny to see Captain Ahab of ExtremeSkins make his mantra a rip-off from the hated white whale.

Happy hunting, jolly one.

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by Mad Mike

We drafted 23rd last year, If we drafted 13th like this year we would have gotten one of them. Try to keep up.

What the h#ll are you talking about? Even if we had the 13th spot they still would've been gone. Dallas snatched Gurode and Fonoti went two picks behind him. Was our draft position anywhere near the Cowboys pick? NO! Funny how you have the audacity to get an attitude when you're wrong. :laugh:

Actualy we played them third to the last game and our offense did pretty well they got 2 sacks for 7 yards on us we got 2 sacks for 10 yards on them. Over all our offensive stats were prety even with philly except for our passing yards per attempt. We got 5.6, they got 7. Hmmmm I woounder how it would have looked if we had a speedy wideout? Try to argue with facts.

Well, if you knew anything about football you would've known sacks aren't the only determination of how well an OL is playing. How much the QB is hurried, forced out of the pocket, or how many holes they opened in the running game are also determined. The fact that you tried to prove your point solely off of sacks is hilarious. You ask me to argue with facts, when you haven't come up with a single one that made any bit of sense. Try again, son.

[Gamebreaker]

Mad Mike,

Ladell Betts - drafted in the second round with the 24th pick

Andre Gurode - drafted in the second round with the 5th pick

Toniu Fonoti - drafted in the second round with the 7th pick

Not only was I right when I stated we had no chance to get those two last season, but you were also wrong in believing that if somehow had the draft position we have now, we could've drafted one of them. 13th is still too late. Do your homework next time.

[Mad Mike]

OK Mom. It was late and I messed up on the first one. It was a tackle that was taken that I thought was a guard.

As for the philly game, of course sacks are just one part of the story Here's the rest.... http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20021215_WAS@PHI

We ran pretty well, scored three TDs through the air in our maybe one of our best passing days of the season.

This is why we lost...

FUMBLES FUM LOST REC YDS C.

Bailey 1 1 0 0

S. Davis 1 1 0 0

P. Ramsey 1 1 0 0

My basic premiss is still correct. Our line played pretty well by the end of the year. A solid FA and a decent rookie will help us get better with another year in the system. We have a pair of pro bowl bookend tackles who should be healthy. Every slot on the line does not have to be a pro bowler or first rounder.

While I'm sure you can make an all-pro dent in your couch every sunday I'm going to stick with Spurriers opinion that we need a fast wideout just for kicks. OK mom? :laugh:

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by Mad Mike

OK Mom. It was late and I messed up on the first one. It was a tackle that was taken that I thought was a guard.

I'm glad you can finally admit when you're wrong, I guess I taught my son well.

We ran pretty well, scored three TDs through the air in our maybe one of our best passing days of the season.

I wouldn't call 86 rushing yards for 25 carries with no touchdowns as running well. I'd call that pretty mediocre. That is 3.4 yards per carry, and I don't think you'll find anybody bragging about that.

The fumbles did hurt us, but the game was well beyond reach before the 4th quarter. The 3 TD's by Ramsey only made the team feel a little better about being swept by the Eagles.

You keep saying our line played pretty well, when they did Ramsey nor our running game any favors aganist the Eagles. Allowing 2 sacks and one resulting in a turnover shouldn't be your evidence of the OL improving. Like I said, our line played well aganist weaker competition, and that was the last two games. The Texans didn't have any talent upfront whatsoever, and Tre Johnson had finally got into game shape around that time. You can ask any Cows fan about their line, and they'll admit they have little to no pass rush. Also, with all the hoopla going on at Texas Ranch I'm sure that helped us out some as well. Those last two games didn't disprove that the OL is our biggest priority.

Every keeps talking about more speed at reciever, and I think some of you(not actually you Mike, but other posters) are thinking all our recievers run like Chris Doering. Gardner averaged 16.7 yards per catch last season, and averaged 14.2 ypc this season. That isn't bad at all, you'll find that some of the best WR in the league make get most of their gains around the 11-20 yard range, and this also goes for Gardner and Thompson. We could use a speed WR, I'm not saying we don't. I agree with Spurrier, you and others who fill we do. But I don't feel it is a bigger need than our offensive line. We should sign a speed WR(not Price), and address both lines through the draft.

Tre' Johnson isn't a definite possibility at RG, we all know he's injury prone. Although I hope he can remain healthy, because he's a true Redskin, a talented Guard, and a nice guy. But the reality of the situation is he could possibly go down very early next season and leave a huge whole in our OL. It's happened numerous times with him before. I'm not impressed by Brendan Stai, and I don't think the coaching staff is either. Wilbert Brown did improve a little in the last few games, but not enough to prove he could be a starter. Besides Samuels and Jansen, we have a collection of backups, injury prone veterans and second year players. None of them are a definite solution at guard or center, and our FO needs to stop putting band-aids on the problem and take care of it.

We have more question marks at OL than we do at WR. And while you're entitled to your opinion, I will remain firmly in the belief that the best way for this offense to succeed will be to concentrate on getting better players in the trenches.

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by Atlanta Skins Fan

There is probably only one impact WR available (Price). You think you know Price isn't a strong enough receiver. In fact, his overall catch/yards numbers were almost identical to Moulds -- but his reception percentage and YAC were markedly higher. Price is a quality receiver, almost certainly better than anyone on the Redskins roster at this moment in their development.

I still don't agree with you about Peerless Price, more and more I'm starting to feel this guy is way overhyped. Yes, Price's YAC were similar to Moulds. Yet neither were anything to brag about. We should all remember Moulds went through most of this season getting double teamed while Price was enjoying single coverage. He is not a #1 reciever, and although he can make an impact when he has a good Qb throwing him the ball, and a #1 reciever drawing most of the attention, we don't yet know if Gardner can make that type of impact.

I feel Gardner is actually a better reciever than Price. It took Price 4 seasons to finally break 1,000 yards. Gardner has done that in just his second season, this done with either a rookie quarterback or mediocre to bad veterans. The more Ramsey develops the more we'll see Gardner shine. He could turn into a #1 reciever as early as next season, he was already drawing double coverage in alot of games this season.

I feel we could use the deep threat reciever that Spurrier covets, and we should sign a FA that fills this need instead of drafting a WR and having to let him learn. That is why I'm advocating we sign Eddie Kennison. He's a low profile reciever, he lead the Chiefs in recieving this season and he showed he can be a fine deep threat. Yes, he's had an up-and-down career. Yet last season everything really came together for him. He has amazing speed, and could stretch the field just the way Spurrier wants.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker

I feel we could use the deep threat reciever that Spurrier covets, and we should sign a FA that fills this need instead of drafting a WR and having to let him learn. That is why I'm advocating we sign Eddie Kennison. He's a low profile reciever, he lead the Chiefs in recieving this season and he showed he can be a fine deep threat. Yes, he's had an up-and-down career. Yet last season everything really came together for him. He has amazing speed, and could stretch the field just the way Spurrier wants.

I'm not so much gung-ho on Price as I am gung-ho *not* to draft a WR at all. Since Spurrier seems intent to make significant additions at WR, I've supported Price as a reliable choice. Personally, I wouldn't acquire any WR.

I'd rather use our draft and cap money on other priorities -- OL (3 players), safety, DL (2 players), kicker, punter, #3 QB, re-sign existing free agents (Gardener, Powell, Johnson, Wuerffel, Thompson), extend Champ, extend Smoot. That's a lot to do, so I'd leave WR alone. Like you, I expect growth from Gardener, Thompson and McCants. Doering could do at #4 if necessary, but hopefully Russell will emerge and claim that spot.

As for Kennison, I haven't seen him play. Maybe he could be an option, but a 900-yard receiver won't be cheap. Five teams in seven years -- what's the deal there?

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by Atlanta Skins Fan

As for Kennison, I haven't seen him play. Maybe he could be an option, but a 900-yard receiver won't be cheap. Five teams in seven years -- what's the deal there?

He's had some serious problems developing into a good reciever over the years. He totally bombed in St. Louis, his hands were the big problem there. After they gave up on him he went to Denver, didn't do much good there and actually wanted to retire. He changed his mind and was signed to play for the Chiefs. Due to injuries, he got his chance to start and used it wisely. Unlike Westbrook, he didn't allow to his early difficulties to bring him down and he's finally had a solid season.

I think he could be signed for a reasonable amount of money, I believe the same can be said for Thompson. He's probably eager to return to the Skins, and I feel only #1 recievers are worth big money anyway. If any reciever is going to demand a large contract it will be Price.

[Art]

There are several comments in this thread that are just factually incorrect.

GB,

The offensive line was the least of our problems on the balance of the year. It had a period of weakness, but it was also very strong through periods. The offensive line gave Ramsey and Wuerffel plenty of time to deliver the ball and to make yards on the ground.

You wrote that Fonoti and Gurode were the two guards we had interest in. That's flatly wrong. We also LOVED Simmons and were rumored to like him better than anyone on the interior and we also had a hard on for Bentley. They all went very early and we had no opportunity, realistically and by value to pick them.

You wrote the only way the offense plays better is to make the offensive line a top priority. Yet, is it not factually true that the offensive played better even during this year, and for a long stretch of games with the offensive line we had? Isn't it true we were a Top 6 offense over the final six weeks? In fact, isn't it true the offense has shown it can play better and it did so without making offensive line a top offseason priority?

Remember, we do get Stai and Jones back in the mix. We should cut Stai and keep Johnson, but, regardless, we're in better shape now than we were at any point last year and the offseason hasn't even started yet. Obviously we should add another body or two on the interior to further increase our ability to overcome injury.

Perhaps the most laughable comment in this thread, GB, is your thought that the only reason the offensive line looked at all good to close the year is because they played somehow weak defensive teams. That's horsesh!t. We surrendered just 14 sacks over the second half of the season. Five were on Wuerffel in the Giants game before Ramsey came in. Over the last four games Ramsey was sacked once every 31 times. After the Eagles game the Eagles players mentioned how disappointed they were that they couldn't get to Ramsey more to deliver shots on him.

Our offensive line may fairly be considered the team's strongest unit to close the year. And it did that with a clear weakness at one spot and an out of shape guy at the another.

Mike and GB,

I guess this is to the both of you. Mike, I would wager a guess that any number of people on this board may know NFL personnel better than Steve Spurrier does even to this point. No one would doubt his genius in terms of calling plays or designing an offense. But, by Spurrier's own admission, he wasn't greatly familiar with NFL players and while a year of coaching will get him some great knowledge, there are a lot of people who watch the league over a course of years and they, even fans, may have a view on talent that surpasses Spurrier's.

Spurrier is in no way more qualified than Mendes or Cerrato to make personnel judgements. Heck, I'd say he's not more qualified than Jerry Jones and only on par with Daniel Snyder. These guys have LIVED the NFL while Spurrier was coaching in college. Spurrier's a sharp guy. He knows what type of piece he needs to make his offense go from the get go now and he'll contribute on matters now. That's good. But, it's laughable to suggest Spurrier is better for personnel decisions than people who've been a part of the game for YEARS in a personnel role.

ASF,

Your arguments against Stai at the time were laughable, though, any of two dozen board members were calling for Brown for some time. I was calling for Bob Hallen as early as March I think. Please, don't attempt to toss out your great personnel judgements when, in fact, they weren't that good. Remember Rod Gardner, as an example?

Your mistakes on Helton, who probably wound up as our best positional coach on the season in a tight race with Spurrier Jr., and your often odd take on so many things makes you a person you don't want to put up against Spurrier in a contest of smarts. In your list the only thing you nailed to this point is Betts, and, you weren't alone there. Everything else was proven wrong, or still lacks any correctness, so, if this is your best stuff, you're not the guy to say you know your stuff.

It is stunning to me to read ASF's best of list and to know just how woefully inadequate you've been on almost every single one of those threads. Even the ones I agree with you on, like Lewis', you can't claim victory on because there's a great deal of evidence we're both just idiots. Hell, I think you said recently you've changed your mind on how good the defense may have been this year. Now you're saying you were right to say Lewis did a horrible job? You're killing yourself.

In all though, I just want to be included because this debate got feisty and I wasn't involved .

[Utah]

Thanks Art, I was too tired to deal with that crap.

As for you CreamPuff. I am pretty sure that I got my "tired" signature from Jaws.

Like Art said, you better bring a whole lot more to the table if you want to play with the big boys.

[Gamebreaker]

Art,

Don't take my words out of context, they would look laughable if your not reading them correctly. I didn't say the Texans and Cowboys were "weak defensive teams", yet I did say they had weaknesses up front and couldn't muster much of a pass rush all season. Not once did I say the Eagles were a weak defensive team either, that is ludicrous. I stand by my stance on those last two games. Nothing you said proved that the Texans or Cowboys were any more capable at getting pressure on Ramsey or shutting down the running game. All you did was state how well we outplayed them, which doesn't dispel their shortcomings at all. The Cowboys literally have no pass rush, this a known fact, the Texans defense although a surprise to some still a defense of an expansion team. Our OL looking good aganist these two units is nothing to brag about.

In fact, isn't it true the offense has shown it can play better and it did so without making offensive line a top offseason priority?

Come on, Art. Think about what you're saying. Our OL played better because they picked up Tre' Johnson mid-season. You make it seem that their lack of concern for the line didn't matter because WHAT THEY CURRENTLY HAD did a good job regardless. That just isn't true, no matter how you try to spin it. It had nothing to do with the decisions being made, or lack thereof, in the off-season.

You say we should still pick up another lineman or two for depth purposes, I disagree. Besides Samuels, Jansen and Moore, we have no definite starters, and by this I mean guards. You admitted yourself that Brown was a weakness, and Johnson is injury prone. He's only had one season where he played all 16 games, do you really believe he can do so again? Which means we need a starter at LG, and a starting-caliber guard behind Johnson. You mentioned Rod Jones would be back in the mix. Is that suppose to be a positive? Jones played horrible at guard, and had to be switched back to tackle before his injury. Overall, I would say our line needs more work than our WR unit. Which was my point in this whole debate in the first place.

Concerning who we wanted in Guards in the last draft, I believe my exact words were those two guards were who we were interested in "as far as I knew". My whole point was our second round pick was too far down the list to draft those two, and you admitted we didn't have the draft position to get Simmons and Bentley either. Which further proves my point in bringing up last year's draft in the first place.

Art, I understand your need to get involved in a heated debate. Yet you really didn't do much but strengthen my position. Your comments about how many more guards we wanted in the draft only showed that I was right in saying our draft position was too low, the whole point of mentioning last year's draft. You actually admitted we need "another body or two" and that is more than we need anywhere else on this offense.

[Zen-like Todd]

I was wondering what Mad Mike was talking about when he posted the apology thread. Then I saw this Roy Williams thread that kept bubbling to the top.

1) Yes, you are all a**holes (I am too, but that's a different matter).

2) Yes, you're all f**king brilliant in your own special little ways, with incredible insights. Snyder should hire you all immediately as front office advisors.

3) #2 was sarcastic. Shut up, and stop being such d!cks to each other.

[Yomar]

I blame Roy Williams

[Art]

GB,

I didn't take your words out of context. I expanded upon them. I pointed out that while you said our offensive line ONLY looked good the final two weeks, that, in fact, it looked good the final eight for the most part, and especially so the final four.

Houston, is, in fact a pretty good team with pressure because it's done differently than anywhere else. Dallas isn't a good team with pressure on the QB, but, that is only reassuring to every other team. Typically they still kick our teeth in with pressure. But, the fact remains, the offensive line dominated both of those teams in the passing game and the running game. Both were pretty good defenses when we got to them. The offensive line did a great job against New York once Ramsey got in and we had Philly talking about how little pressure they were able to generate.

I'm aware that the pickup of Tre wound up contributing greatly to our line's improvement. I think I've said that repeatedly. With Tre in we went from two questionable players to one and you can cover for one. But, again, the fact is, we improved as an offense not when Tre was picked up and started but when Wuerffel and Ramsey came in and took shots deep and forced teams off the line of scrimmage.

We had Tre for 10 games and his presence helped us greatly allowing us to stay more fresh and to have more pop in there. But, all that proves is if we enter the season with the players we have, we can still be a good offense because we just were to end the season. That's the point. You said the only way the offense can improve is to make the offensive line a top priority. In fact, that's not true. We improved with the players we already have. Therefore, since we can be a good offense without making the offensive line a top priority, we could, conceivably, go with what we have, which is right now better than it was at any point during the season.

We have Jones and Stai, who are definite starters. I'd like to release Stai for Tre, but that's me. I've called for adding Mo Collins to the guard spot so you can use Jones as a primary backup at four line positions. But, that you don't know Jones and Stai are definite starters doesn't mean they aren't. Tre is a definite starter too. You can't say that his injury history makes him less than a definite starter. He'd certainly start. That's as definate as it gets. But, given his injury history, we need to protect ourselves. We need to probably increase our depth. Perhaps even keeping Stai so we have Jones and Stai as primary interior reserve players.

As I've been saying for months, we should be looking seriously at adding a Mo Collins, or even a player I don't like such as Zach Piller. But, this hardly qualfies as a move to make the unit a top priority. I agree we need to solidify the spot. I disagree that we need to do anything amazing to do it. If we add just Collins and do nothing else but resign Tre, we'd have the deepest offensive line in football, in terms of having FOUR guys, at least, on the bench with substantial starting experience in the league.

As for Jones, you're mistaken on how he played at guard. You've just fictionalized the preseason. Jones was dominating in his only appearance at left guard in the preseason against Carolina. He was dinged and didn't play against San Fran. He did start and dominate against Carolina which was broken down, play by play, on this board at the time. Samuels was injured against Carolina. Jones was the BEST player we had at guard, but also, at that point, the best player we had at left tackle. So he went there and played a very strong game against Pittsburgh. Then he got hurt against Tampa and was gone for the year.

It's factually inaccurate to say Jones played poorly at guard. He played great. It's factually inaccurate to say his poor play caused him to be moved to tackle. That's ludicrous. An injury to Samuels caused that. And, as for your initial thrust in this thread, that line is more of a need than receiver, I can say perhaps.

Assuming we sign Johnson and Thompson that will leave us in a situation where I'd be comfortable with our receivers, though I'd like a veteran like Hilliard to round it out and a situation on the line that would be fine to start, but not thick enough for me, so I'd need a depth move. If we don't resign Thompson and we do resign Johnson, clearly, receiver is a greater need. The offseason will dictate our needs. Out moves will. Right now, we can imagine a situation where the offensive line is a greater need than the receivers. We can also imagine one where the offensive line isn't. So, you're not wrong. Just hasty.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Art, I still think you're overrating Stai at this point in his career/health -- but I'm not worried about that, because I do think he will be cut and Tre Johnson will be re-signed.

I also think you're forgetting how Jones came to camp overweight and had major problems switching to guard, according to camp reports. His previous history at OT showed him to be marginal there -- perhaps someone to consider as a backup, but not a starter. I did watch him at OT in the preseason (you're right that he was switched back to OT because of the Samuels injury) and was not very impressed. You have a strong positive memory of him at guard, but that was just one game. (Recall that you also praised Loverne at guard late in the preseason. I won't hold Loverne against you -- it was just one game -- but for the same reason, I'm not going to accept that Jones is a starting guard just because you liked him in one preseason game.)

Any discussion of Jones needs to be strictly about his merit as a backup who can play multiple positions. Jones might be more valuable than, say, Wilbert Brown as a backup. But neither player should be a starter.

(We can cut Wilbert Brown if we draft a center in the first three rounds, which I'd like to do.)

[Gamebreaker]

Art, where you and I disagree is on the worth of some of our linemen. You believe Stai and Jones are definite starters, I disagree. I can recall watching Jones get beat playing at guard, and remember reading obvservations about TC through the press and by fans who also said Jones wasn't doing well in his switch to guard. So when you say Jones played good, I'm at a loss, because I haven't seen nor heard of him playing good at all as a Redskin. I will review the pre-season games I taped and study the line, maybe there is something I missed.

We agree on what should be done with Stai though, I don't feel we got the best of that trade and we could do better with someone else. I didn't say Tre' wasn't a starter, I've actually stated in this thread he is a good guard, yet his injury history prevents us from plugging him in and having no worries like we do Jansen. We'll have to sign a guard to backup Johnson, who could possibly come in and play an extended amount of games in case Johnson suffers another serious injury. There is a hole at LG, hence the need to for a guard like Mo Collins to fill it. I agree Collins would be a good fit, especially since the Raiders may not have the cap room to resign once the season is over.

So far we see that a starting left guard is needed, and a backup right guard to come in if Johnson gets injured. That is two players that would need to be signed for the offensive line. Now, if the team re-signs Thompson, and any indication from Spurrier would show they likely will, than all we need is someone to stretch the field for us. Which would mean only bringing in one extra reciever. This makes the OL a bigger priority than WR, or any other position on offense for that matter.

[Art]

ASF,

I didn't praise Loverne in the preseason other than saying he seemed to be a nasty guy and if we're stuck, perhaps nasty is better than anything else. Jones didn't come to camp out of shape or overweight. He came to camp as a guard, and he was asked, and he needed to, add weight he wouldn't normally carry at tackle.

About three years ago Rod Jones was considered a top five left tackle in this league. He fell apart with a big contract and had some issues with depression, but, by no means was he considered marginal. He was considered a cornerstone and he didn't handle that pressure well. He's been a highly capable player in this league.

GB,

You do not recall watching Jones get beat playing guard. You've created an imaginary friend and you won't let him go. I broke down EACH play Jones played at guard. At the time I recall observing if Jones played the way he did at guard in every game he'd be the best guard in the game. I didn't suspect that would happen, but, based on a single half, you don't recall watching him get beat.

The training camp reports about Jones struggling with guard came about two days in where it was observed that he was having difficulty with right guard, which has greater responsibility. He was struggling with that. I never understood why he was there anyway because left guard in our system is more like left tackle. He was quickly moved to left guard and no one commented on his struggles at guard. People continued to bring up the second day observation that he was struggling with right guard as if that meant he was struggling with both positions, but, that's not true. They are distinctly different. And no camp report or quote from the coach said he wasn't doing well at left guard in a very short period of time there.

Here's a thread on the games he played. Every play is there.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13350&highlight=Jones+Carolina+Pittsburgh

You don't even need to review. But, when you do, say sorry.

[Charlie Murphaaay]

Originally posted by Yomar

I don't really think we need more speed at WR, but I'm pretty sure Spurrier and the Front Office do, since thats all they have talked about since the season ended. But I think our WRs are fast enough, I think good route running and a strong QB arm are all that are required in the NFL. Jerry Rice never wowed anybody with his 40 time. But if you think we do, than you should be happy since the team agrees with you.

If we don't get more speed at WR by next year, we would have made little progress this offseason.

Jerry Rice ran a decent forty, but Jerry Rice was fast. He took five yard slants and skinny posts for long touchdowns. No WR on our roster has that kind of ability.