The American right: Under the weather

[#98QBKiller]

A better title for this should be "The American Republicans: Under the weather". Bush is Republican but is the most fiscal irresponsible president in history. I don't think he rates the label conservative.

EDIT: Championing the cause to legalize millions of illegal aliens is not exactly a conservative value as either. Or piling on to the soon to be bankrupt pyramid scheme some like to call the social security program with the prescription drug benefit that will only bankrupt the program that much sooner.

You didn't get the memo?

All Democrats are to be known as "Liberals" while all Republicans are to be known as "Conservatives."

There are no moderates and no middle ground anymore, it's one extreme or the other..this is Extremeskins after all.

[ACW]

You didn't get the memo?

All Democrats are to be known as "Liberals" while all Republicans are to be known as "Conservatives."

There are no moderates and no middle ground anymore, it's one extreme or the other..this is Extremeskins after all.

Hey, what about us libertarians?

[Mass_SkinsFan]

You didn't get the memo?

All Democrats are to be known as "Liberals" while all Republicans are to be known as "Conservatives."

There are no moderates and no middle ground anymore, it's one extreme or the other..this is Extremeskins after all.

I actually found that kind of humorous.

All Democrats ARE Liberals, because you ARE what you vote for. Though not all Liberals are Democrats. Some are Communists or Socialists by party affiliation. Most Republicans at this point are Liberals also. Many of them USED to be Conservatives, but they've stoped voting that way, so see the first sentence of this paragraph. There is no middle ground, and never was, in the political spectrum. You're either a Conservative (on the Right) or you're a Liberal (anyone to the Left of that position). The few true Conservatives out there nowadays really don't have a party to call home.

[ACW]

You're either a Conservative (on the Right) or you're a Liberal (anyone to the Left of that position).

Or you're a libertarian. Or I guess a statist/authoritarian.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Or you're a libertarian. Or I guess a statist/authoritarian.

I would suggest that the first 5 letters of the word "libertarian" should tell you which side of the fence I believe they fall on. Similarly Statism/Authoritarianism is simply a sub-set of Conservatism.

[isle-hawg]

You didn't get the memo?

All Democrats are to be known as "Liberals" while all Republicans are to be known as "Conservatives."

There are no moderates and no middle ground anymore, it's one extreme or the other..this is Extremeskins after all.

No, I didn't actually get the memo but I did hear Rush Limbaugh dicatate that memo on his EIB network sometime back before I quite listening :laugh:

[ACW]

I would suggest that the first 5 letters of the word "libertarian" should tell you which side of the fence I believe they fall on. Similarly Statism/Authoritarianism is simply a sub-set of Conservatism.

Libertarians are liberals in the "classical liberal" sense, but are miles away from American liberals. As for statism vs. conservatism, they differ on the free marker.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Libertarians are liberals in the "classical liberal" sense, but are miles away from American liberals.

Sorry but any group that has found a way to support legalizing marijuana is way too close to the American liberals for my tastes.

As for statism vs. conservatism, they differ on the free marker.

Personally, I believe that Nationalism and Patriotism are required parts of Conservatism, so in my mind they're pretty close concepts, ACW.

[Henry]

MSF, actual contemporary society does not define terms based on your world. We are all well aware of your personal views on ... well, on just about everything by now. And I know how fond you are of sharing them. However, fringe views are largely irrelavant in a discussion about mainstream ideals.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

MSF, actual contemporary society does not define terms based on your world. We are all well aware of your personal views on ... well, on just about everything by now. And I know how fond you are of sharing them. However, fringe views are largely irrelavant in a discussion about mainstream ideals.

Henry, then I'll make one last comment and leave ther thread to you "mainstreamers"....

Maybe the fact that your society does not agree with my views of things is why your society is crumbling around your feet and will soon cease to exist in any useful way.

Have a nice day.

[Buddy Dude]

Henry, then I'll make one last comment and leave ther thread to you "mainstreamers"....

Maybe the fact that your society does not agree with my views of things is why your society is crumbling around your feet and will soon cease to exist in any useful way.

Have a nice day.

[hkHog]

Interesting take on things. Completely and totally WRONG, but an interesting take on things.

President Bush is only marginally involved in the reason that the Republicans are losing support so quickly. Congress has a much greater amount to do with it than most people realize. The problem is very simple... The Republicans are no longer Conservatives. They've run away from their Conservative roots and become nothing more than Liberal-Lite. The Independents that they're losing are those of us who truly are Right-Wing. The closer the Republicans get to becoming Democrats the more they're GOING to lose the support of their TRUE base. Who knows, maybe 20 years without a Republican being elected on the national level will get their heads out of their asses sufficiently to see that becoming Chairman Mao or Josef Stalin is NOT the way to win friends and positively influence people on the Right side of the political spectrum.

Bingo, you knocked the nail right on the head. I would say that America is now more conservative than it has ever been but the Republicans no longer represent conservative values. The conservative movement is as strong as ever and growing (particularly on a worldwide basis - just look at Europe) but the Republican politicians have let down their base big time by refusing to stand up for fundamnetal conservative values.

[#98QBKiller]

:laugh:

(Nice sig too)

[Henry]

Henry, then I'll make one last comment and leave ther thread to you "mainstreamers"....

Sure you will.

[Buddy Dude]

Sure you will.

we can always dream can't we

[chomerics]

So basically your view, if I understand it correctly, is that Bush and Co. weren't Conservatives from the start. . .

And Frist, Delay, Santorum, Hassert, Gingrich, the entire lot of them were nothing that represented conservatism as people understand it. Iraq is not a conservative foreign policy move, neither is the elimination of rights, cronyism or corporate welfare. Heck, even their tax cuts were not conservative in nature, because they never found a way to cut government. They are/were fascist moves, not conservative ones. For those of us who pay attention to the details of what was happening, and were trying to give an opposing viewpoint while being labeled a traitor, leftist and everything else, we are enjoying watching you guys eat a bit of crow pie and looking around wondering what happened to your party.

and that those of us who knew they had to be closer to our beliefs than Al Gore and who feel we've been sold down the road by Bush and the entire Republican Party over the last decade should have known from the start that it would happen. Is that right, chom?

I would say that Bush IS closer to your beliefs, as well as Sarge's. . . but that only because you make Hitler look like Bush I on a political spectrum. So yes, in your own defense, you voted someone who was aligned with your beliefs, and the result was a sharp turn of the country completely away from your ideology towards the left. It should tell you something about what you believe in, and how far away from norm it is.

The turn of the country left is why some very astute conservatives were pushing for Kerry and not Bush last election, and why they wanted Bush out of there. They understood politics, and watched their hard work of 30 years go down the tubes for the next decade or so.

[chomerics]

Maybe the fact that your society does not agree with my views of things is why your society is crumbling around your feet and will soon cease to exist in any useful way.

Funny, but I don't see society crumbling around my feet like you say. . .I also didn't see the flowers and roses you said would greet us in Iraq, or the WMD's you said were there, or how the insurgency was in it's last throes, or how your right to carry was taken away by liberals or. . . . ah the hell with it, nothing you say about society, or the future ever is true, so I should just let this little tidbit stand on it's own.

Why don't you put a date on "society crumbling?" Why don't you put your predictions to use? Or better yet, why don't you grab your guns, buy a piece of land in Wyoming, live in the woods hunting, fishing, writing your Fascist Manifesto while masturbating to Ted Nugent videos of bow hunting. I think that is the only way you will ever truly be happy.

[mrhetzler]

Buddy,

I asked all those questions to see if you qualify as a "chicken hawk." Which, by the answers to the questions, you do not.

As a liberal who is anti Bush and Anti Iraq war, I grew tired of seeing support from the war from young, right-wing, angry, apparently able bodied men, who call liberals pu**ies, but won't fight. It just didn't make sense.

But, you are not in this category. Oh well. I'll live and learn.

When I've asked others these questions, they usually disappear. But you didn't. Thanks for being the first to not run and hide.

Well, I'm off to try to out more chicken hawks, foolish or insensitive as it may seem.

HTTR

[Burgold]

Are you saying that members of the right make you think...

[Predicto]

In my experience, there are two different types of "conservatives" in the US.

The first is the Western-style, "rugged individualist" type. Think Ronald Reagan.

The second is the Southern-style, moral majority type. Think Jerry Falwell.

The two are not the same, and in many ways have almost opposite natural instincts. In recent years, the Southern-style has been more in power, but in many ways they have worn out their welcome (at least for now). The Republicans will remain dominant as long as they can hold those two disparate groups together and keep the money coming in.

[chomerics]

In my experience, there are two different types of "conservatives" in the US.

The first is the Western-style, "rugged individualist" type. Think Ronald Reagan.

The second is the Southern-style, moral majority type. Think Jerry Falwell.

The two are not the same, and in many ways have almost opposite natural instincts. In recent years, the Southern-style has been more in power, but in many ways they have worn out their welcome (at least for now). The Republicans will remain dominant as long as they can hold those two disparate groups together and keep the money coming in.

There is the dichotomy they are facing Predicto, and why they are in the trouble they are in right now. The split was because of things like Terry Schaivo (can you imagine what Regan would have said about that? The government intervening into that sort of privacy?) Iraq (what did Regan do? He cut and ran!!!), and spending. The 2 groups are going to split, and unfortunately for the real "true republicans", the money is with the Frists of the party and the evangelical right. They are going to get squelched out, or turn to a third party.

I find it funny that the right seems to forget he gave amnesty to illegals, increased taxes, and spent money like it was going out of style. . .but pay no attention to facts, only listen to what you want to hear. I give the right credit in one thing though, they realized long before anyone else, that they could say one thing, and do the complete opposite, and their supporters wouldn't understand. They realized that Americans were lazy mo-fo's, and they exploited it to their best ability. It has all caught up with them now, and people see their true colors, but hey think of how much money they made for the likes of their big oil buddies, and energy companies while they were on top. They have made sure that their grandchildren's grandchildren will be in politics and running the country when they are long gone, and for that, I do admire them. It's too bad that they will be doing it on the backs of our kin though.

[ACW]

Replace Reagan w/ Goldwater IMO. A TRUE Western-style libertarian-ish conservative wouldn't've ramped up the Drug war so much or formed a commission on porn (Meese Commission).

[Buddy Dude]

Buddy,

I asked all those questions to see if you qualify as a "chicken hawk." Which, by the answers to the questions, you do not.

As a liberal who is anti Bush and Anti Iraq war, I grew tired of seeing support from the war from young, right-wing, angry, apparently able bodied men, who call liberals pu**ies, but won't fight. It just didn't make sense.

But, you are not in this category. Oh well. I'll live and learn.

When I've asked others these questions, they usually disappear. But you didn't. Thanks for being the first to not run and hide.

Well, I'm off to try to out more chicken hawks, foolish or insensitive as it may seem.

HTTR

I hide from nothing. Whether I'm right or wrong, I'll always listen to what someone has to say, even if I disagree. The problem i run into, is that I'm a true Centrist, which people just don't seem to think is possible, because they always go with popular opinion.

Like I said before, I stand in the middle, and I agree and disagree with several points on each side.

And kudos to you for responding as well, I was wondering where you ran off to

[chomerics]

I hide from nothing. Whether I'm right or wrong, I'll always listen to what someone has to say, even if I disagree. The problem i run into, is that I'm a true Centrist, which people just don't seem to think is possible, because they always go with popular opinion.

LMAO, you have got to be the first "true centrist" on this planet that defends Bush!

[Predicto]

I hide from nothing. Whether I'm right or wrong, I'll always listen to what someone has to say, even if I disagree. The problem i run into, is that I'm a true Centrist, which people just don't seem to think is possible, because they always go with popular opinion.

Like I said before, I stand in the middle, and I agree and disagree with several points on each side.

Buddy, you may be an honest and straightforward poster, but you are hardly a Centrist, judging from what you have posted so far in numerous threads. You appear to be a conservative Republican who is pissed off at Bush. There are lots of those guys around, but they don't claim to be Centrists.

This is not a call out. You are entitled to your views. They just aren't Centrist.