KC Joyners QB over/under rated

[Riggo#44]

You arguing that a qb can have his best year and not go far obviously this is true, all I said was that it takes an elite qb to go far. You claim this isn't true, that all you need is solid D and a run game.

Dan Marino - no run game, ever - never won an SB.

John Elway - didn't win the big one until Terrell Davis was there

Brett Favre - didn't win until Edgar Bennett put up 1000 yrds, and Dorsey Levens picked up from there, taking them to the SB.

Name one elite QB to win the big one w/o a running game or stout defense.

I thought about this and then wondered, well then why did the Chargers lose first round. They have arguably the best rb of all time, the 9th overall defense in the NFL(3rd ranked in playoffs). What didn't they have, you starting to catch on now? Rivers put up great numbers and was a descent all around qb, but he didn't have that something extra that all elite qb's have.

Yeah he had Marty Schottenheimer

These are the qb's that take their team far, you continue to bring up the most recent playoffs. In these playoffs the elite qb, and the chargers a team predicted to go to the sb didn't make it out of the first round. You continue to argue random points that don't even go against my argument and constantly offer personal insults, and you think you are making others look foolish?

Yeah b/c you haven;t proven anything, and when anyone produces evidence contrary to your point, you look the other way or change your stance.

[BMahoney]

Riggo #44, Peyton Manning had a rookie rb and Dominick Rhodes (ranked 18th), and the 22nd ranked defense in the NFL. What are you talking about, your only reasoning for the chargers not winning is their coach? It had nothing to do with Rivers losing a fumble having a pick and never being able to get them back into the game? That was all Schottenheimer's fault? And I understand that majority of the time, teams that win the Superbowl have an above average D, but they ALWAYS have a top 5 ranked qb. They don't ALWAYS have a top 5 rb, obviously you know this after watching the most recent superbowl. Since I am ignoring all your points could you please in capital letters give me your argument and tell me where it has not been refuted. My argument IT TAKES AN ELITE QB TO TAKE YOU FAR, if you do not have one you will not go far (In Todays NFL). I have numerous times offered the bet that a top 5 qb will be on the sb, not a top 5 d, nor a top 5 rb. If you would like to pick rb or D and take the bet by all means please do.

[Passizle]

You arguing that a qb can have his best year and not go far obviously this is true, all I said was that it takes an elite qb to go far. You claim this isn't true, that all you need is solid D and a run game. I thought about this and then wondered, well then why did the Chargers lose first round. They have arguably the best rb of all time, the 9th overall defense in the NFL(3rd ranked in playoffs). What didn't they have, you starting to catch on now? Rivers put up great numbers and was a descent all around qb, but he didn't have that something extra that all elite qb's have. These are the qb's that take their team far, you continue to bring up the most recent playoffs. In these playoffs the elite qb, and the chargers a team predicted to go to the sb didn't make it out of the first round. You continue to argue random points that don't even go against my argument and constantly offer personal insults, and you think you are making others look foolish?

I just watched that game form a DVR recording I had from NFL network. I never saw the game until this Sunday 07/29.

In reality the Chargers beat the hell out of the Pats on both sides of the ball throughout the game. They beat in almost every facet of the game except the score.

http://www.superbowl.com/gamecenter/teamstats/NFL_20070114_NE@SD

The one thing they did not do was have receivers make critical catches (alot of guys with stone hands that day) and the INT's/Fumbles they did recoever were turned over right away before the Ofeense could even get on the field. That and the fact that their clock management at the end of the game was horrible.

All they had to do was make the easy catches and they would have won that game hands down. It had ABSOLUTLEY nothing to do with Rivers play that day. He played almost flawlessly.

[Riggo#44]

Riggo #44, Peyton Manning had a rookie rb and Dominick Rhodes (ranked 18th), and the 22nd ranked defense in the NFL.

Addai - 1081 yrds, 4.8 average, 7 TDs - that's a pretty decent output. Not to mention - as you've blatantly ignored - the Colts had the #1 defense in the playoffs. Not to mention, Peyton played like crap the 1st two games of the playoffs (1 TD/5 INT). If it wasn't for his defense and the committment to the run, he would have been out, again. In the regular season, they averaged just over 27 carries per game. In the playoffs, they averaged almost 37 carries per game.

So while Peyton is an elite QB, he played like a very mediocre QB the 1st two rounds, even after that was solid but not spectacular.

So you're wrong there - again.

What are you talking about, your only reasoning for the chargers not winning is their coach? It had nothing to do with Rivers losing a fumble having a pick and never being able to get them back into the game? That was all Schottenheimer's fault? And I understand that majority of the time, teams that win the Superbowl have an above average D, but they ALWAYS have a top 5 ranked qb.

Ok - if they ALWAYS have an Elite QB, give me an example (and I just completely debunked Peyton Manning, so don't bother trying to spin that one) that didn't. Give me a QB that didn't rely on a run game or his defense to win. Peyton did exactly that.

They don't ALWAYS have a top 5 rb, obviously you know this after watching the most recent superbowl.

Show me where I said top 5! Quit putting words into my mouth. You're ignoring my posts b/c I am crapping all over your arguments and you have nothing to come back with.

My argument IT TAKES AN ELITE QB TO TAKE YOU FAR, if you do not have one you will not go far (In Todays NFL). I have numerous times offered the bet that a top 5 qb will be on the sb, not a top 5 d, nor a top 5 rb. If you would like to pick rb or D and take the bet by all means please do.

It has been shown time and time again that you don't need an elite QB. I never said top 5 rb or D - solid defense and a solid running game will carry a mediocre QB (or in last years SB - an elite QB playing like a mediocre one).

[Passizle]

Riggo #44, Peyton Manning had a rookie rb and Dominick Rhodes (ranked 18th), and the 22nd ranked defense in the NFL. What are you talking about, your only reasoning for the chargers not winning is their coach? It had nothing to do with Rivers losing a fumble having a pick and never being able to get them back into the game? That was all Schottenheimer's fault? And I understand that majority of the time, teams that win the Superbowl have an above average D, but they ALWAYS have a top 5 ranked qb. They don't ALWAYS have a top 5 rb, obviously you know this after watching the most recent superbowl. Since I am ignoring all your points could you please in capital letters give me your argument and tell me where it has not been refuted. My argument IT TAKES AN ELITE QB TO TAKE YOU FAR, if you do not have one you will not go far (In Todays NFL). I have numerous times offered the bet that a top 5 qb will be on the sb, not a top 5 d, nor a top 5 rb. If you would like to pick rb or D and take the bet by all means please do.

the fumble was a given, but his one pick was a fluke bounce of his own receiver (hence the catching thing from my prior post). Do you think elite QB's can control a circumstance like that?

Wait... perhaps they have psycho kinetic powers to make the bad bounces go in their favor. How foolish of to not see this before.

[BMahoney]

You guys don't refute anything, so the qb had a pass that got tipped and picked it happens. Tom Brady had 3 picks that game, but NE still won, because Tom Brady was able to keep them in the game. Riggo you have said it doesn't take a top 5 qb, but have you looked at the numbers previously in this post, for some odd reason it has been a top 5 qb for the past who knows how many years, and occasionally there is a good d or solid rb teamer up with them (they are the best team in the NFL). But as my point goes you need an elite qb to win the sb. You somehow think you debunked Petyon by showing that there rb has less yards then Betts and the same amount of TD's as Portis and saying they had the #1 ranked D in the playoffs. Well what do you think is a better judge of a teams D, the playoffs or the season? You say Peyton had 2 bad games and that there D got them past KC, is this a joke it was 23-8 KC never had a chance and the reason there were so many runs is because Manning is calling the plays and began to run the defense down after the game was over. Against Baltimore he got some great help from his D but this was just an all around awful game, and if you watched it (doesn't really appear you watch this incredible sport) you would have seen that Peyton marched them down to put the game out of reach. Funny though how you don't mention the NE game, I was wondering why? 27/47 349 yards 1 td 1 int. These numbers aren't the telling factor for this game though, it is how after one of the worst first halves in Peyton's history he bounces back and leads his time in a huge win to take them to the superbowl. Then you get to the SB 25/38 247 1-1, once again numbers not very telling but if you watched the game it was manning who set them up for their scores and at the end of the game let his RB combo run out an already exhausted Bears D. You haven't debunked Manning whatsoever because he is the most elite qb in the NFL and oddly enough he was the one that won the superbowl, even though he had a 22nd ranked D, and 18th ranked rushing attack. These are not good rankings out of 32 teams, but hey Peyton did rank #1 as a qb, but your right its not elite qb's that go far. I just reread your posts and really don't understand your point, you say you don't need a elite qb to win the sb. I assume this means you need a good rushing attack, or D, you reject this as well. I was wondering what it is you think it takes to win a superbowl, you have said it is not a top 5 D, rushing attack or qb. I will ask again in capital letters, what is your argument? Mine is ELITE QBs ARE REQUIRED TO GO FAR IN THE NFL.

Edit: Why do you judge Rhodes bases on his season, but there D based on the playoffs. It seems to me you just choose a time when they performed at their peak and offer that as an example to debunk someone. If you are going to analyze numbers the season is obviously the best way to do this, but if your going to use the playoffs (for reasons unknown a 4 game avg, compared to 16) you should remain constant judge everyone's performance on the playoffs, not just 2 games for Manning or the D.

[BMahoney]

Again these posts have grown old, I will bet sigs with someone that a top 5 qb (we can discuss the basis( either yards, qb rating, maybe a few different components), will be in the sb, instead of a top 5 D or running back. This is either a yes or no posts here fellas not to difficult.

[BMahoney]

did a little research probably no correlation, but just take a second to think about it.

I looked at the top 5 qb's by passer rating for each of the past 3 years.

2004:

Manning

Culpepper

Brees

McNabb

Roethlisberger

-Everyone in playoffs McNabb in SB

2005:

Manning

Palmer

Roethlisberger

Hassleback

Bulger

-All in the playoffs except Bulger, and two of them played each other in the SB

2006:

Manning

Huard

Brees

McNabb

Romo sits to pee

-Every team again in the playoffs, and yes I know McNabb didn't play all season long but he started with a bang. And once again you find the team that won the superbowl had a top 5 qb.

I understand I am a punk, I don't watch any football have no idea what I am talking about and am easy to prove wrong. So please let me know what is so skewed about these numbers and lets see the correlation.

I got bored so I continued, these are the Top Defenses for the past couple of seasons.

2006:

Baltimore

Jacksonville

Oakland

Miami

Chicago

-2 got to the playoffs, but Chicago was a fluke.

2005:

Tampa Bay

Chicago

Carolina

Pitt

Baltimore

-4 of the teams made it to the playoffs, 1 lost 1st round, 2 2nd round, and Pitt one it all but they also had the 3rd rated qb.

2004:

Pitt

Buffalo

Skins

Denver

Tampa

-Only two of these teams made it to the playoffs.

If you aren't seeing the correlation here, I guess this discussion is just over.

Edit: This posts shows that on average it is the better qb's that take teams further in the season, obviously there are extreme circumstances that can skew the average. However the large majority 95%+ of the time it is the teams that have a franchise or elite qb that do successful.

[Riggo#44]

Again these posts have grown old, I will bet sigs with someone that a top 5 qb (we can discuss the basis( either yards, qb rating, maybe a few different components), will be in the sb, instead of a top 5 D or running back. This is either a yes or no posts here fellas not to difficult.

AS soon as you produce an elite QB that won it on his own.

I've already shown you Peyton did not

- The defense doesnt shut Larry Johnson down holding him to 32 yards

- For the playoffs, Manning had a 70.5 rating, throwing 3 TDs and 7 INTs. That's mediocre.

QB's get far too much credit and far too much blame.

[BMahoney]

You are asking me for something I cannot prove and that is not my point if you would please just read the capitalized letters from the past 2 or 3 posts. I have highlighted for you that my point is that it takes an elite qb to take you far. Football is a team sport and there will always be support coming from your teammates, a qb cannot even effect the defensive side of the ball. My point which, you have somehow missed through all of this is that for a team to be successful in the NFL they need to have an elite qb, you are obviously going to refute with the Bears of this year. However the Bears are an extreme circumstance, they play nobody hard, and there qb went from a top qb in the league to hitting rock bottom and have the lowest passer rating in NFL history. I have shown that in the past few years all elite qb's find themselves in the playoffs this is not so with defenses and I will also find the numbers for the top 5 running backs if you are interested. So here in once sentence: MY POINT IS ELITE QBs ARE NECESSARY TO GO FAR IN THE NFL, AND OBVIOUSLY YOU NEED SUPPORT FROM YOUR TEAM BUT A QB IS THE STARTING AND MOST IMPORTANT PIECE TO DEVELOPING A UPPER ECHELON TEAM IN THE NFL.

Edit: Please respond to the post where I give the stats about the top 5 qb's. I didn't read anything in your post about those numbers, I was just hoping you could prove me wrong as you always do.

[Passizle]

You are asking me for something I cannot prove and that is not my point if you would please just read the capitalized letters from the past 2 or 3 posts. I have highlighted for you that my point is that it takes an elite qb to take you far. Football is a team sport and there will always be support coming from your teammates, a qb cannot even effect the defensive side of the ball. My point which, you have somehow missed through all of this is that for a team to be successful in the NFL they need to have an elite qb, you are obviously going to refute with the Bears of this year. However the Bears are an extreme circumstance, they play nobody hard, and there qb went from a top qb in the league to hitting rock bottom and have the lowest passer rating in NFL history. I have shown that in the past few years all elite qb's find themselves in the playoffs this is not so with defenses and I will also find the numbers for the top 5 running backs if you are interested. So here in once sentence: MY POINT IS ELITE QBs ARE NECESSARY TO GO FAR IN THE NFL, AND OBVIOUSLY YOU NEED SUPPORT FROM YOUR TEAM BUT A QB IS THE STARTING AND MOST IMPORTANT PIECE TO DEVELOPING A UPPER ECHELON TEAM IN THE NFL.

Edit: Please respond to the post where I give the stats about the top 5 qb's. I didn't read anything in your post about those numbers, I was just hoping you could prove me wrong as you always do.

So do you think that...

Tony Romo sits to pee

Eli Manning

Jeff Garcia

Chad Pennington

Rex Grossman

Matt Hasselbeck

Philip Rivers

Steve McNair

Trent Green

... are elite QB's? Out of all the afformentioned players, only Rivers and Pennington were top 10 in yards. Only Manning, Grossman and Rivers were in the top ten in TD's. Only Romo sits to pee and Rivers were top ten in QB rating. So... by all means, Rivers should be considered elite, as he ranked top ten in the most important stats. Yet you say Rivers did not have the eliteness to get his team to the next round. A QB, no matter how great, cannot win a game for his team if a) his defense is allowing alot of points, his offense is playing poorly) c) his offense/defense is commiting turnovers, or d) all of the above.

How can a QB prevent all those things from happening? Rivers is the example. Rewatch the game against teh Pats. Or see the stats here yourself.

http://www.superbowl.com/gamecenter/teamstats/NFL_20070114_NE@SD

Back on topic now... As for the QB's, they all went far and it was not done by them alone. They all had great RB compliments and/or good defenses/special teams.

[BMahoney]

So you have no response to my numbers so you complete change the subject. The large majority of the teams are in the weak NFC that really doesn't contain any descent teams other than maybe the Saints and Skins. Trent Green didn't play for half of the season so obviously his numbers aren't that high, Manning is awful only reason they got here is the NFC, Garcia was an elite qb for pretty much every game he played last years season, Tony Romo sits to pee may have cooled down but definitely was a top qb in the NFL for a good majority of his wins that got them to the playoffs, Pennington is an incredible qb who has had injury problems, Grossman was elite for the first half of the season and only got far because they didn't ever play anyone til the Saints who decided not to show up, Hasslebeck is obviously a top notch qb in this league why would you even bring him in should have left him out like brees and manning, Rivers is an ok qb thats probably the reason he lost in the 1st round even though he has LT, and the 9th ranked D in the NFL. McNair well he has won a superbowl, and he is definitely an elite qb in this league, Trent has grown old but knows how to get W's. I don't think your understanding that elite qb's are the guys who know how to win, it is not always there stats that are telling it is just something they have in them.

Dallas:

13th ranked D

13th ranked Rushing attack

5th ranked qb (done by rating)

Giants:

24th Ranked D

7th Ranked Rushing attack

18th Ranked qb

Eagles:

15th Ranked D

11th Ranked Rushing attack

4th Ranked qb (Garcia had a 95.8 not posted on NFL.Com) he would be ranked 4th

NYJ:

19th ranked D

19th Ranked rushing attack

12th Ranked qb

bears I guess you all know

Seattle:

18th Ranked D

22nd Ranked Rushing attack

19th Ranked qb

SD:

9th Ranked D

1st Ranked rushing attack

8th Ranked qb

-How did these guys not win the SB?

Baltimore:

1st Ranked D

24th Ranked Rushing attack

14th Ranked Qb

KC:

15th Ranked D

9th Ranked rushing attack

8th Ranked qb (Not posted on NFL.com because Huard is #2, but he would be the 8th)

-As you see for the majority of these teams there QB is actually there strongpoint.

[BMahoney]

I found another stat you guys may want to look at, since you feel that elite qb's are not required. There is a clear correlation between the best qb's in the league and how good their teams will be.

Adding all teams records with a top 5 rated qb you get 50-30

Adding all teams records with a top 5 rb 46-34

Adding all teams records with a top 5 D 42-38

-Please tell me you are starting to see this correlation between qb's and wins and losses.

[BMahoney]

Looking at your most recent post I noticed you mentioned the pats san diego game and claimed his Rivers defense was playing poorly, but they did have 3 picks. River's rushing attack had 100 more yards then the Pats did, what exactly were you trying to prove by showing me those stats. That Brady the better qb set his team up for the W?

San Diego had more yards in that game, there D produced 3 turnovers as opposed to NE's 4, I don't really see what you were trying to prove with those stats other than the team with the better qb came out on top.

[Riggo#44]

I found another stat you guys may want to look at, since you feel that elite qb's are not required. There is a clear correlation between the best qb's in the league and how good their teams will be.

Adding all teams records with a top 5 rated qb you get 50-30

Adding all teams records with a top 5 rb 46-34

Adding all teams records with a top 5 D 42-38

-Please tell me you are starting to see this correlation between qb's and wins and losses.

I lost you after you called Jeff Garcia an "elite QB"...:laugh:

[BMahoney]

So Riggo you have no response to the numbers cuz they prove you wrong so you make some stupid statement such as the one above.

26/48 189 1 td

19/23 140 2 tds

21/39 312 3 tds

15/23 164 2 tds

19/28 237 1 td 1 int

15/23 238 1 td 1 int

6 game span went 10 td 2 ints not very elite?

If you were to use those six games as a basis for 16 this is how he would rank:

3,147 yds - 13th

26 TDs - Tied for 3rd

5 Ints - 1st

Ummmm... what are elite qb numbers for season if these don't meet the criteria?

[Passizle]

Edit: Please respond to the post where I give the stats about the top 5 qb's. I didn't read anything in your post about those numbers, I was just hoping you could prove me wrong as you always do.

I would not want to dissapoint you so...

2004:

Manning (29th ranked defense-19th in PA)

Culpepper (28th ranked defense-26th in PA)

Brees (18th ranked defense-11th in PA)

McNabb (10th ranked defense-3rd ni PA)

Roethlisberger (1st ranked defense-1st in PA)

-Everyone in playoffs McNabb in SB -out of all the QB's mention here, only McNabb and Roethlisberger went deep. You forget to mention that Pennington, Bulger, Plummer, Hasslebeck, Favre, also made the playoffs despite them not being "elite". You can have it one way or the other, but not both. Its either elite QB's carry the team or they dont, according to your logic.

Also deserving honorable mention is the fact that you forgot to mention the top ten ranked defenses (ordered by PA) duiring the 2004 season.

Pittsburgh Steelers

New England Patriots

Philadelphia Eagles

New York Jets

Washington Redskins

Baltimore Ravens

Jacksonville Jaguars

Buffalo Bills

Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Denver Broncos

Guess wich QB's team were eliminated the quickest? I'll let you figure that out. Are we beginning to see a pattern here?

2005:

Manning (11th ranked defense- 2nd in PA) BTW, if Manning is the elitest QB ever, why does he not win the Superbowl every year?

Palmer (28th ranked defense-22nd in PA)

Roethlisberger (4th ranked defense-3rd in PA)

Hassleback (17th ranked defense-7th in PA)

Bulger ( 30th ranked defense-31st in PA)

-All in the playoffs except Bulger, and two of them played each other in the SB - You dont mention the other "elite" QB's to make the playoffs in Brunell, Simms, Leftwich, Brady, Delhomme and Manning Jr.

Again worth honorable mention are the top ten defenses ranked in PA:

Chicago Bears

Indianapolis Colts

Pittsburgh Steelers

Denver Broncos

Carolina Panthers

Jacksonville Jaguars

Seattle Seahawks

Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Washington Redskins

Baltimore Ravens

Same question as before... which teams defense help wich team QB to get the deepest into the playoffs?

2006:

Manning

Huard

Brees

McNabb

Romo sits to pee

-Every team again in the playoffs, and yes I know McNabb didn't play all season long but he started with a bang (5-5 is starting off with a bang? truth is, they were on a losing streak until NcNabb got hurt. This is just another example of how you versions of the facts is always wrong). And once again you find the team that won the superbowl had a top 5 qb.

Also, I dont feel like working any longer on this post. Lookup the rest of the QB's who made the playoffs. They were not all elite (but thats what it takes to get here right?)

you can also follow these links to see the top ranked defense by overall ( http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-TOTAL/2006/regular?sort_col_1=4 ) and by points allowed ( http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/tmstats2006.htm )

You will find the same resemblenses throughout NFL history. The only abboration here was the fact that the Colts D did not play weel during the season, but came up big time in the post season. ( http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-TOTAL/2006/post?sort_col_1=4 ) See for yourself.

Next!

[BMahoney]

I didn't include other qb's because just maybe you saw I did top 5 for every stat why would I randomly include people not in the top 5? You chose to change the defensive stat to points allowed rather than yards, you claim MacNabb didn't start out with a bang? Only the best 8 game start in NFL history WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I have never once mentioned the playoffs as criteria either you have chosen that, any qb that makes it "far" or "deep" are the words I used and making it into the first round hell even the 2nd of the NFC is not making it far or deep, considering the competition. Do you have anything else to add to my posts, that are random off topic and completely change what I was arguing? Lol I also love how you quote half of my post and ask why I left out top 10 defenses when they are listed below in the post (I only did 5 just like all other criteria). Also why did you randomly change to top 10 when I was doing top 5?

[Passizle]

I found another stat you guys may want to look at, since you feel that elite qb's are not required. There is a clear correlation between the best qb's in the league and how good their teams will be.

Adding all teams records with a top 5 rated qb you get 50-30

Adding all teams records with a top 5 rb 46-34

Adding all teams records with a top 5 D 42-38

-Please tell me you are starting to see this correlation between qb's and wins and losses.

Everyone know that the best way to judge a defense is by points allowed. I myself did not believe this myself until recently being shown the correlation between top D's, W/L record and PA. So...

Adding all teams records with a top 5 rated defense by PA gets you...

Baltimore Ravens

New England Patriots

Chicago Bears

Jacksonville Jaguars

Miami Dolphins

for a total of 51-28-0

Sorry. Try again.

BTW... as we have been saying all along... the teams with the complementing QB's get into the playoffs. The ones without do not.

[BMahoney]

"-Every team again in the playoffs, and yes I know McNabb didn't play all season long but he started with a bang (5-5 is starting off with a bang? truth is, they were on a losing streak until NcNabb got hurt. This is just another example of how you versions of the facts is always wrong). And once again you find the team that won the superbowl had a top 5 qb."

-Can't quote but that is what you said, and you call me wrong. You my friend are a joke.

Here are his #'s:

24/35 314 3 1

27/45 350 2 0

18/33 296 2 0

16/30 288 2 0

18/34 354 2 0

19/32 247 2 1

22/35 302 3 3

18/35 161 0 0

-And you said that he didn't start with a bang... WOW. Did you watch any football last season? I am having a hard time believing you did.

[Riggo#44]

So Riggo you have no response to the numbers cuz they prove you wrong so you make some stupid statement such as the one above.

26/48 189 1 td

19/23 140 2 tds

21/39 312 3 tds

15/23 164 2 tds

19/28 237 1 td 1 int

15/23 238 1 td 1 int

6 game span went 10 td 2 ints not very elite?

If you were to use those six games as a basis for 16 this is how he would rank:

3,147 yds - 13th

26 TDs - Tied for 3rd

5 Ints - 1st

Ummmm... what are elite qb numbers for season if these don't meet the criteria?

You spin me right round, right round, like a record player...

Do you watch football other beyond the QB?

Ok Jeff Garcia:

TEN - 26/48 189 1 td

IND - 19/23 140 2 tds

CAR - 21/39 312 3 tds

WAS - 15/23 164 2 tds

NYG - 19/28 237 1 td 1 int

DAL - 15/23 238 1 td 1 int

Brian Westbrook:

TEN - 22 car, 102 yards and 12 of Garcia's 26 completions went to Westbrook for a paltry 46 yards. Mark Brunell anyone?

IND - 20 car 124 yrds 1 TD, 7 rec 46 yards - no one else had more then 4 catchs, and no completeions over 19 yards.

CAR - This I will give to Garcia, even though Westbrook had 16 for 68 yrds rushing, 6 catches 56 yards for a TD. Garcia completed several long bombs, and put up numbers beyond the dink and dunk from the previous 2 games.

WAS - 14 pts off turnovers - Garcia had one scoring drive. Not to mention Westbrook 88 yards on 17 car.

NYG - 19 car 97 yards, 2 TDs, 5 rec 59 yards. Per Scouts Inc. " The real hero of this game was the Eagles defense."

DAL - Westbrook 26 for 122. 204 total yards rushing.

Yes Garcia played well, but really, it was Westbrook who carried this team. Garcia was no more then Brunell in 2005 - are you going to say he was "elite"

You can keep setting them up, I will smack them down...

[Passizle]

I didn't include other qb's because just maybe you saw I did top 5 for every stat why would I randomly include people not in the top 5? You chose to change the defensive stat to points allowed rather than yards, you claim MacNabb didn't start out with a bang? Only the best 8 game start in NFL history WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I have never once mentioned the playoffs as criteria either you have chosen that, any qb that makes it "far" or "deep" are the words I used and making it into the first round hell even the 2nd of the NFC is not making it far or deep, considering the competition. Do you have anything else to add to my posts, that are random off topic and completely change what I was arguing? Lol I also love how you quote half of my post and ask why I left out top 10 defenses when they are listed below in the post (I only did 5 just like all other criteria). Also why did you randomly change to top 10 when I was doing top 5?

4 and 4 is the best 8 game start in NFL history? WTF are you smoking? Just go away dude. You are embarrassing yourself BADLY!!!

[BMahoney]

I posted his McNabb's numbers below, and it was the best start in NFL history this is fact you flipping moron. You then mention how Garcia's yards are to his rb, it is a west coast offense and they do hardly rush the ball so yea guess what RB's get a lot of receiving yards.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[BMahoney]

Garcia had 10 Td's and 2 picks and would rank among the highest in the nfl if he played all season if that continued for his 6 game span? I set that one up riggo you never knocked it down.

Passizle McNabbs numbers are posted above and it is fact he had the best nfl start.