KC Joyners QB over/under rated

[BMahoney]

Well there is an archive here so you could prove that I bet you and was wrong so I would look extremely dumb, and I don't know how to else to create that bet. How are you going to say which, attributed to more. Its quite clear that if there is a top 5 qb with a D not ranked as high that the qb had more to do with it. So please either take the bet or just admit its a bet you know you will lose so you won't accept it.

[BMahoney]

I apologize for writing that much don't pay attention to it. Bet yes or no? Hoping for only a yes or no response here.

[Passizle]

Then take the bet fellas....

Two words...

Gamblers Annonymous

:laugh:

You are betting your self away. First you will have an avatar of my choosing (as long as the mods agree and it is within forum rules) what else do you want to bet away?

You could do a sig bet

After that comes NNT

After that, banned for life?

What else is there?

[BMahoney]

Well I don't think I'm going to lose any of the bets obviously. BTW I Just pmed you I didn't realize we were gonna do avatar's PM me back let me know the deal.

[BMahoney]

So Elkabong Ill take that as a no, point proven.

[elkabong82]

Well there is an archive here so you could prove that I bet you and was wrong so I would look extremely dumb, and I don't know how to else to create that bet. How are you going to say which, attributed to more. Its quite clear that if there is a top 5 qb with a D not ranked as high that the qb had more to do with it. So please either take the bet or just admit its a bet you know you will lose so you won't accept it.

First off, my eyes can tell me whether it's the QB or the D that is helping more. Obviously if there is a good argument for both it's a tie.

And don't try and narrow things down to crap like "take the bet or I'm right" because that's bogus. I, nor anybody else, has to take a bet with you in order to be proven right or wrong. It's quite clear that the Superbowl participants over the past 3 years have all had great defenses, and their QBs didn't contribute as much as the D. I already stated this before, but:

2006: Colts vs. Bears, the Bears got there with a great defense more than they did Grossman's arm, the Colts advanced thru the playoffs with the return of Sanders and all of a sudden being able to stop the run. Peyton wasn't great against KC or Baltimore, and the run game helped more so than the pass in the Pats game and the Superbowl.

2005: Steelers vs Seahawks, the Steelers have had a great D the entire time Roethlisberger has been starting. Their run game expanded with Willie Parker. The Seahawks had a great D that year with the emergence of Tatupu, and their run game got them there with league MVP Shaun Alexander.

2004: Patriots vs. Eagles, the Patriots have used their D to dictate games, while Brady plays smart and doesn't create turnovers. The Patriots didn't become dominant until they added Corey Dillon and bolstered their run game. The Eagles had many probowlers on their D in '04 (though the Skins were better on D). The Eagles had been in the playoffs before, but always fell short. '04 the team had the best defense of any of their playoff teams the past 6 years, and that gave them the edge.

So I don't need to take a bet to prove Defenses have more to do with winning championships than elite QBs do, because history proves me right.

[BMahoney]

Why would you not take a bet apparently your bound to win. Because apparently manning going 21/34 232 yds 1 td 1 int, was overshadowed by their run game against NE. Oh yea BTW they had 93 total rushing yds. The superbowl they did run all over the bears D but IMO this was due to Manning sustaining drives and switching backs, which in turn led to them running against a very tired D to use time. Im too tired to continue on to the others but IMO qb's are a better judge of how far a team will go then how good their defense is. You obviously feel otherwise, if you want to bet and show me how confident you are in your opinion you may, but since you don't sorry for wasting your time (You helped my day go by alot quicker, I love myself a heated debate).

[elkabong82]

Why would you not take a bet apparently your bound to win. Because apparently manning going 21/34 232 yds 1 td 1 int, was overshadowed by their run game against NE. Oh yea BTW they had 93 total rushing yds. The superbowl they did run all over the bears D but IMO this was due to Manning sustaining drives and switching backs, which in turn led to them running against a very tired D to use time. Im too tired to continue on to the others but IMO qb's are a better judge of how far a team will go then how good their defense is. You obviously feel otherwise, if you want to bet and show me how confident you are in your opinion you may, but since you don't sorry for wasting your time (You helped my day go by alot quicker, I love myself a heated debate).

Betting doesn't show confidence, it shows desperation.

[BMahoney]

So no you will not take the bet that a top 5 qb is in the sb , and a top 5 d is not. Man you are something else you just argued it for hours, about how wrong I was. Now you say I am desperate, I showed you the numbers they were in my favor, you showed me this season which was a pitiful playoff season. The fact of the matter is more often than not the team with the better qb is going to get further, hence the reason the chargers the team with the best rb maybe in NFL history(were yet to see if he is better than Barry), and the 9th ranked defense (3rd best in all the playoffs). Yet they can't get out of the 1st round... hmmmm I wonder why? Tomlinson had 187 yards, the D had 3 picks, and yet they still lost. Could it be because they're qb couldn't get in the endzone, he had 0 TD's and 1 int and 1 lost fumble.

[skinsn24]

Alright, I have not posted in a serious discussion in a while, but this one needs to be addressed.

First Off, I disagree with Bmahoney on Vince Young being the savior. Lets remember QBs throw the ball, they dont run.

However, Bmahoney is correct in the fact that QBs should be judged by their W/L record. Are there other charactaristics, stats, and qualities that go into judging a QB? Of course! Are there many other factors that are involved in winning a football game? Of course. But the only thing that matters in football is Wins. A QB is the captain of the team and EVERYTHING (on offense) goes through him.

Therefore, W/L record, should be put on the QB and is def a fair way to judge a QB. I dont want to hear the defense arguement as a QB needs to know the type of D he has and plan accordingly. Note the playoffs and peyton manning, He realized that the D was playing better, and he didnt need to throw for 400 yards a game. Instead HE CALLED lots of running plays.

Lets think about Joe Montana. Why is he great? His numbers are not spectactular, but he was a winner. He did what it takes to win. End of Story.

Tom Brady, winner, thats it. His numbers are great, but without the wins, what does it matter?

Brett Favre-Usually posts horrible INT numbers, but the dude wins.

Elway-The Broncos in the Mid 90s seriously considered multiple times getting rid of Elway because he couldnt get over the hump, but he did.

Anyone who thinks W/L does not fall on the QB or is not a way to judge a QB is not really watching football. John Kitna passes for over 4,000 yards but we all know he sucks because he cant win football games.

Funny how Manning gets no credit for winning his superbowl because the defense stepped up, which it did (check old threads, i am big into D wins champs), but Manning managed the game right and got the W's.

Defense Does win Champs, i agree, but Only if their Qb is managing the game right. Just like a coach, a QB is a game manager, it is in his hands to win or lose the game. If he doesnt lose the game, he wins, and did his job.

Lastly, to continue with the superbowl and the QB W/L record. Grossman single handly lost that game for the Bears. He should be judged by that. HE lost. He through the ball right to the defense, so he takes the L, plain and simple.

EDIT: One last thing. Think about QBs best seaons. Most of the time they are when their team has their best W/L record. How many people though Brunell sucked in 05? How many people would defend Brunell in 05 agaisnt puke fans by saying, he is winning game?

What is trent dilfers best year?

Kerry Collins best year?

I for one, would say their best years came when their team won the most games, as i dont care if a QB passes fro 4,000 yards but goes 2-14, it was a bad year.

[BMahoney]

Wow thank you for the support, and I understand my love for VY is slightly blind Passizle will tell you all about it. Nice to see an outsiders POV on an argument.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

KC Joyner is doing a chat now and has just stated repeatedly that the reason Romo sits to pee is on the underrated list is b/c he was pretty good and everyone has "thrown him under the bus" this offseason. One of the dumbest things KC has yet said.

[skinsn24]

Betting doesn't show confidence, it shows desperation.

not trying to interject, but i would disagree, the old saying goes "put your money where your mouth is"

Talk is Talk...those that back it up are the real players

[Reic]

Betting doesn't show confidence, it shows desperation.

Why would you bet on something you are not internally confident about? /shrug

[BMahoney]

Fellas you can't argue with Elkabong, he just says something and by doing that he is automatically right every single time. Haven't you noticed?

[TEK2000]

KC Joyner is doing a chat now and has just stated repeatedly that the reason Romo sits to pee is on the underrated list is b/c he was pretty good and everyone has "thrown him under the bus" this offseason. One of the dumbest things KC has yet said.

Why is that dumb?

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Why is that dumb?

he's been thrown under the bus??? half of the magazines are picking the cowboys to win the superbowl?

people saying that a guy who has played in 10 games is not a hall of famer is not throwing him under the bus

[TEK2000]

he's been thrown under the bus??? half of the magazines are picking the cowboys to win the superbowl?

people saying that a guy who has played in 10 games is not a hall of famer is not throwing him under the bus

Got any links? I don't think I've seen anyone picking the Cowboys this season because lots of people picked them last year and we collapsed embarrasingly.

Most of what I've seen all offseason is questioning his dedication to football and harping on his December.

I would have to assume that that is what Joyner is basing his statments on.

[Passizle]

Alright, I have not posted in a serious discussion in a while, but this one needs to be addressed.

First Off, I disagree with Bmahoney on Vince Young being the savior. Lets remember QBs throw the ball, they dont run.

However, Bmahoney is correct in the fact that QBs should be judged by their W/L record. Are there other charactaristics, stats, and qualities that go into judging a QB? Of course! Are there many other factors that are involved in winning a football game? Of course. But the only thing that matters in football is Wins. A QB is the captain of the team and EVERYTHING (on offense) goes through him.

Therefore, W/L record, should be put on the QB and is def a fair way to judge a QB. I dont want to hear the defense arguement as a QB needs to know the type of D he has and plan accordingly. Note the playoffs and peyton manning, He realized that the D was playing better, and he didnt need to throw for 400 yards a game. Instead HE CALLED lots of running plays.

Lets think about Joe Montana. Why is he great? His numbers are not spectactular, but he was a winner. He did what it takes to win. End of Story.

Tom Brady, winner, thats it. His numbers are great, but without the wins, what does it matter?

Brett Favre-Usually posts horrible INT numbers, but the dude wins.

Elway-The Broncos in the Mid 90s seriously considered multiple times getting rid of Elway because he couldnt get over the hump, but he did.

Anyone who thinks W/L does not fall on the QB or is not a way to judge a QB is not really watching football. John Kitna passes for over 4,000 yards but we all know he sucks because he cant win football games.

Funny how Manning gets no credit for winning his superbowl because the defense stepped up, which it did (check old threads, i am big into D wins champs), but Manning managed the game right and got the W's.

Defense Does win Champs, i agree, but Only if their Qb is managing the game right. Just like a coach, a QB is a game manager, it is in his hands to win or lose the game. If he doesnt lose the game, he wins, and did his job.

Lastly, to continue with the superbowl and the QB W/L record. Grossman single handly lost that game for the Bears. He should be judged by that. HE lost. He through the ball right to the defense, so he takes the L, plain and simple.

EDIT: One last thing. Think about QBs best seaons. Most of the time they are when their team has their best W/L record. How many people though Brunell sucked in 05? How many people would defend Brunell in 05 agaisnt puke fans by saying, he is winning game?

What is trent dilfers best year? 1998 225 429 52.4 2729 6.4 21 15 8-8 season

Kerry Collins best year? 2002 311 529 58.8 3610 6.8 22 13 10-6 season

I for one, would say their best years came when their team won the most games, as i dont care if a QB passes fro 4,000 yards but goes 2-14, it was a bad year.

That is probably one of the dumbest statments I have heard in a while. Duh... QB have their greatest seasons when their teams are winning. Thats like saying when it rains out, stuff gets wet.

Do you think RB's have their best years when their teams are losing?:doh:

Do yu think WR's have their best years when their teams are losing?:doh:

The last time I checked, football was a team sport. Any one person can win or lose the game for you. If a QB throws 13/26 160 1 0

but the RB fumbles late in the fourth during a sustained drive and close to the redzone to lose the game, how is that the QB's fault. You would judge the QB by his W/L record which clearly does not support the facts. He played well and did not lose the game.

This is just one example doing a quick search. My above annotation supports this as well.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Got any links? I don't think I've seen anyone picking the Cowboys this season because lots of people picked them last year and we collapsed embarrasingly.

Most of what I've seen all offseason is questioning his dedication to football and harping on his December.

I would have to assume that that is what Joyner is basing his statments on.

do i really have to respond to this. if i googled Romo sits to pee superbowl right now, i would get a billion hits.

[KDawg]

I'd say it's too early to hate on VY just yet...

Only because they just signed Eric Moulds. He's a dinosaur, but he catches freakin' everything.

Troupe gives him another target.

I don't agree with Vince Young being that great of a quarterback yet, he had one season in the NFL, and it was a good one, but wasn't world beating. The jury is still out on him just like it is on Campbell. It's dumb to argue Young's dominance.

[skinsn24]

That is probably one of the dumbest statments I have heard in a while. Duh... QB have their greatest seasons when their teams are winning. Thats like saying when it rains out, stuff gets wet.

Do you think RB's have their best years when their teams are losing?:doh:

Do yu think WR's have their best years when their teams are losing?:doh:

The last time I checked, football was a team sport. Any one person can win or lose the game for you. If a QB throws 13/26 160 1 0

but the RB fumbles late in the fourth during a sustained drive and close to the redzone to lose the game, how is that the QB's fault. You would judge the QB by his W/L record which clearly does not support the facts. He played well and did not lose the game.

This is just one example doing a quick search. My above annotation supports this as well.

Lets grow up real quick and leave the smilies out of this, they are cute though!

WRs can easily have their best season when their team is losing. Ill let you think on why that is possible.

You also obviously dont read full posts because as i stated there are obviously other things going on during a football game and some thing are out of the QBs control. I also said there are other thing to judge a QB on, but most importantly should be his W/L record.

Simply put QBs are game managers, they manage a game and do what they need to win. Sometimes that means calling running plays, sometimes that means taking shots downfield, sometimes that means dumping the ball off, sometimes scoring lots of points and sometimes running a clock burning series.

So you dont want to judge a QB by there W/L record. What season do you think was Peytons Mannings best season? The year he broke the record or last year? I am pretty sure i know which one he would say.

EDIT: I just reread your post and realized that your two statements are opposites of each other. First you basically say:

"its obvious that a QB has his best season when they win the most games"

Then your second statement says:

"you cannot judge a QB based on the Win/Loss record because to many factors come into play"

Im not gonna explain to you why they are contradictory because Its pretty obvious

EDIT 2: I just noticed you claimed Collins best season was in 2002 and Dilfer was in 1998. You just make me laugh, they both played their best in 2000 and they both made the superbowl, nuff said. I think they would agree.

[BMahoney]

Lock it up, Passizle and Elkabong you got nothing.

[Passizle]

Lets grow up real quick and leave the smilies out of this, they are cute though!

WRs can easily have their best season when their team is losing. Ill let you think on why that is possible.

You also obviously dont read full posts because as i stated there are obviously other things going on during a football game and some thing are out of the QBs control. I also said there are other thing to judge a QB on, but most importantly should be his W/L record.

Simply put QBs are game managers, they manage a game and do what they need to win. Sometimes that means calling running plays, sometimes that means taking shots downfield, sometimes that means dumping the ball off, sometimes scoring lots of points and sometimes running a clock burning series.

So you dont want to judge a QB by there W/L record. What season do you think was Peytons Mannings best season? The year he broke the record or last year? I am pretty sure i know which one he would say.

EDIT: I just reread your post and realized that your two statements are opposites of each other. First you basically say:

"its obvious that a QB has his best season when they win the most games"

Then your second statement says:

"you cannot judge a QB based on the Win/Loss record because to many factors come into play"

Im not gonna explain to you why they are contradictory because Its pretty obvious

EDIT 2: I just noticed you claimed Collins best season was in 2002 and Dilfer was in 1998. You just make me laugh, they both played their best in 2000 and they both made the superbowl, nuff said. I think they would agree.

You have got to be kidding.

Dilfers best year was in 1998. He threw for more completions, yards, and TD's and his team went 9-7.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/DilfTr00.htm

The year they won the Superbowl, he barley played half the season and was on a team with arguably the best defense in NFL history.

You say Collins had his best season in 2000? The why did he throw more completions, more yards, better YPA and the only stat line he did not do better in was TD's in 2002.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/CollKe00.htm

More food for thought

Warren Moon had two career seasons in 1990 and 1995.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MoonWa00.htm

his teams went 9-7 and 8-8 respectivley.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1990.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min1995.htm

Fran Tarkenton had his best year in 1967.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/TarkFr00.htm

His team went 7-7 that year.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg1967.htm

Ahhh... but wait. I bet you would think that all those guys are old school and the game is changed. In that case...

Marc Bulger had his best seasons (so far) in 2004 and 2006.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/BulgMa00.htm

His teams went 8-8 boths seasons.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/ram2004.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/ram2006.htm

Then there is Pennington, or Kitna, or Culpepper etc...

I could go on but I hope this will suffice. While you can THINK W/L record is the only real telling stat line... its just not true. It works some of the time but most of the time it does not (If you want me to bury you with stats, just let me know).

If you want to get a real pictuer on how a QB can win or lose a ball game y himself, then the only stat you need to look at is TD-INT ratio.

Until then, save your comments of maturity and game knowledge to someone you can actually match wits with.

BTW... the beginning of my OP in question was a thing called sarcasm in cae you did not get it.

FOR BMAHONEY: Read the part about TD-INT ratio. The only person who has nothing around here is you. And that means a leg to stand on or a clue.

[BMahoney]

You arguing that a qb can have his best year and not go far obviously this is true, all I said was that it takes an elite qb to go far. You claim this isn't true, that all you need is solid D and a run game. I thought about this and then wondered, well then why did the Chargers lose first round. They have arguably the best rb of all time, the 9th overall defense in the NFL(3rd ranked in playoffs). What didn't they have, you starting to catch on now? Rivers put up great numbers and was a descent all around qb, but he didn't have that something extra that all elite qb's have. These are the qb's that take their team far, you continue to bring up the most recent playoffs. In these playoffs the elite qb, and the chargers a team predicted to go to the sb didn't make it out of the first round. You continue to argue random points that don't even go against my argument and constantly offer personal insults, and you think you are making others look foolish?