Another defensive line thread

[SnyderMustGo]

The 04 season he was a beast when he played. He got 3 sacks and 26 tackles in like 3 or 4 games. He didnt start every game. He was constantly in the quarterbacks face from what i remember.

Come on. Evans never has been a beast in his entire career. The correct term for the guy is "spare" not "beast."

If we are going to call for him to start, then we are in a WORLD OF HURT.

Here are Evans' stats the last 3 years:

2004: 17 tackles 2.5 sacks (12 games played, 8 starts)

2005: 17 tackles, 3 sacks (16 games played, 3 starts)

2006: 14 tackles, 2 sacks (16 games played, 0 starts)

This is the guy you are calling a beast. That's beyond absurd.

He only had 1 decent game in 3 years: '05 game against the NYG in which he had 7 tackles and 1 sack. We lost that game 0-36. That's his only decent game.

But you are calling him a beast and saying he needs more PT?

We have to get someone in here to help this line out. Evans is not the answer.

[skinny21]

it was the dline, combined with other problems. by a good mix of youth on the dline, do you mean 2 rookies and a bunch of guys over 30? griffin/wynn/daniels/salavea all over 30. carter and golston are the only younger ones, monty has barely played, and everyone else on our depth chart has done next to nothing. where is this good mix of youth you talk about?

While I am not satisfied with our line, it seems like you're skewing your assessment a bit. Wynn and salave'a are backups/rotational players, and evans has been decent for us as well. By my count that means we have 2 young starters, two "experienced" starters, and then two young (although evans is 28) backups and 2 older backups. Although maybe not an "good mix" in terms of talent, I would say it is a very "good mix" in terms of age.

Last year we supplanted two of our vets with youth, and it seems that we're grooming Monty to possibly replace Griffin. We are far from being in great shape, but at least we're trending towards youth with veteran backups. My major concerns are that we have no potential replacement for Daniels and I doubt that Monty can equal the success we've gotten from Griffin. The bright side to all of this is next year's draft. If we can get a couple of day one studs, we should be in pretty good shape for a few/several years to come.

[phatSkins27]

i think our Dline will bounce back really be effective but just to hedge our bets if we cant trade for shobel from buffalo before camp than we should get tank Johnson and take a chance that in 8 games we can work him into the rotation and help us through the playoffs

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

While I am not satisfied with our line, it seems like you're skewing your assessment a bit. Wynn and salave'a are backups/rotational players, and evans has been decent for us as well. By my count that means we have 2 young starters, two "experienced" starters, and then two young (although evans is 28) backups and 2 older backups. Although maybe not an "good mix" in terms of talent, I would say it is a very "good mix" in terms of age.

Last year we supplanted two of our vets with youth, and it seems that we're grooming Monty to possibly replace Griffin. We are far from being in great shape, but at least we're trending towards youth with veteran backups. My major concerns are that we have no potential replacement for Daniels and I doubt that Monty can equal the success we've gotten from Griffin. The bright side to all of this is next year's draft. If we can get a couple of day one studs, we should be in pretty good shape for a few/several years to come.

salavea was our starter in 04 and 05. he is a 2 gap tackle due to his larger size. he lost his job last year to a 1 gap tackle. having 2 undersized tackles was not good for our defense. we are going into 07 with 2 undersized tackles again in griffin and golston. monty has the size to command double teams, but we have no clue if hes going to be any good. the one game he started we got bulldozed by travis henry. so we have a bunch of older guys with injury concerns, and 2 unproven rookies. while i may be harsh, i dont think im too far off. none of our depth on the line is worth anything other than wynn, who i think could start over daniels. other than that, our depth at DE/DL is very scary. if carter went down with any injury, we'd be in a serious world of hurt.

[OVCChairman]

Main man what were you watching? That D-Line was terrible. Unlike previous seasons that line was terrible at the point of contact. At least in previous years they could stop the run. Its not an excuse but when a d-line gets blown up, LB's and DB's are gonna be out of position. They(DB's and LB's) try to over compensate because they know the D-line can't hold. We're not gonna even mention pass rush. Goes withour saying. In some recent previous seasons the D-fence has at least played the run well. Bottom line is though, when you can't play the run, no matter what your scheme is, you can't play defense. Its as simple as that.

I watched the 84 team yearbook the other day. Brings back memories. Dexter Manley had 13 1/2 sacks, Charles Mann had 7 1/2, D. Grant had 7 1/2 and Dave Butz had maybe 3 or 4. The team was #2 against the run overall and had like 66 sacks as a defense. The Skins back 7(LB's and DB's) weren't anything special with the exception of Darrell Green. But that front 4 handled their business up front.

dont misread what i said. I never said the line was "fine" i just said i dont think it was the MAIN reason. The D-Line DEFINATELY needs help but i'm just saying that the major problem that i personally saw in our defense was the big plays, the second and third wave not being where they needed to be. There are 11 guys on the field, and i know the D-line being poor negatively influenced the Secondary and linebacking core. I think we have addressed a MAJOR problem and have gotten some improvement. Like you guys i REALLY wish we got a big run stopper this offseason. Not big name, but big player.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

dont misread what i said. I never said the line was "fine" i just said i dont think it was the MAIN reason. The D-Line DEFINATELY needs help but i'm just saying that the major problem that i personally saw in our defense was the big plays, the second and third wave not being where they needed to be. There are 11 guys on the field, and i know the D-line being poor negatively influenced the Secondary and linebacking core. I think we have addressed a MAJOR problem and have gotten some improvement. Like you guys i REALLY wish we got a big run stopper this offseason. Not big name, but big player.

you saw big plays because of missed tackles, and no pressure on the QB. no pressure falls on our dline, becuase they are physically incapable of generating a pass rush, which is a huuuuuge problem that hasnt been addressed. hopefully our LBs tackle better this year, and that will help stopping the run. but our young talented secondary will not shine at all if there is no rush to help them out. like ive said all offseason, give rogers and taylor a pass rush, and we see a completely revitalized unit.

[Bigredskin77]

it was our dline just as much as it was our linebackers. all of our dline got bullied around. warrick holdman sucked, but so did daniels/griffin/salavea. golston was decent at times and showed promise, but he was hardly great. relying on 30+ year old guys with injury concerns is a recipe for disaster.

I would say it was more of the linebackers fault then it was the d-line and here is why.

Cater 56 tackles pretty solid numbers for a d-lineman :applause:

Daniels 37 Weakest link :doh:

Golsten 44 tackles good number for a d-tackle :1stplace:

Griffin 50 tackles pretty good numbers for a d-tackle :thumbsup:

Demitri Evans 26 tackles

Joe salvea 18

Renaldo wyn 246

D-line total tackles 246

Now to the Linebackers

Marshal 104 barely breaking 100 tackles is not good for a middle Lb. :whoknows:

Washington 86 tackles unacceptable :whippin:

Last but not least

Warrick holdman 69 at a loss of words :pooh: :jk: :deal: :doh:

Linebackers total tackles 259 thats pathetic

[TLusby]

did you trust their gameplan last year? just because they are pro football coaches doesnt mean they always get it right.

Yes, I did....and I still do. Injuries happen and we were an injured club. Our #1 RB was essentially hampered, our #1 CB was injured most of the season, our #1 QB (MB) was not healthy (shoulder), our #1 LB (Washington) had problems, our #1 DL (Griffin) had injuries, etc. etc.

I believe they added significant depth at CB and decent depth at LB. The OL has better depth and we have a new QB that has been an excellent student over the offseason. Gibbs & Co. will have the team marching to a different beat as he was embarassed last year.

[Bigredskin77]

But you are calling him a beast and saying he needs more PT?

We have to get someone in here to help this line out. Evans is not the answer.

He's more of an answer then Renaldo Wynn? Evans should have been starting at D-end. If he starts a full season you will see what i mean. The man is a pretty good player at d-end.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I would say it was more of the linebackers fault then it was the d-line and here is why.

Cater 56 tackles pretty solid numbers for a d-lineman :applause:

Daniels 37 Weakest link :doh:

Golsten 44 tackles good number for a d-tackle :1stplace:

Griffin 50 tackles pretty good numbers for a d-tackle :thumbsup:

Demitri Evans 26 tackles

Joe salvea 18

Renaldo wyn 246

D-line total tackles 246

Now to the Linebackers

Marshal 104 barely breaking 100 tackles is not good for a middle Lb. :whoknows:

Washington 86 tackles unacceptable :whippin:

Last but not least

Warrick holdman 69 at a loss of words :pooh: :jk: :deal: :doh:

Linebackers total tackles 259 thats pathetic

tackles is a very bad stat. fletcher had 146 tackles last year on the 28th ranked run defense. if your LB is making 400 tackles but all of them are 6 yards past the LOS, it really doesnt matter. 3 of the top 5 highest tackles came from run defenses ranked 20th or below.

[OVCChairman]

you saw big plays because of missed tackles, and no pressure on the QB. no pressure falls on our dline, becuase they are physically incapable of generating a pass rush, which is a huuuuuge problem that hasnt been addressed. hopefully our LBs tackle better this year, and that will help stopping the run. but our young talented secondary will not shine at all if there is no rush to help them out. like ive said all offseason, give rogers and taylor a pass rush, and we see a completely revitalized unit.

no doubt, i will be the first to say that football games are won and lost in the trenches....PERIOD. We have addressed 2 major issues in the defense with 1 still sitting out in limbo. THE LINE. now i am hoping this offseason the line has fine tuned technique and gotten stronger TOGETHER to help generate that ever so missed pass rush.

that said i still will say that we have improved our run support on the second and third level. I hope Laron Landry gets only sacks, no solo tackles this year. I would love for him to NEVER have to take on a Running Back and I would LOVE to see him knock every pass down that he's defending. Not realistic but hey, i'm a Redskins Fan....Realism went out the door in 1992.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Yes, I did....and I still do. Injuries happen and we were an injured club. Our #1 RB was essentially hampered, our #1 CB was injured most of the season, our #1 QB (MB) was not healthy (shoulder), our #1 LB (Washington) had problems, our #1 DL (Griffin) had injuries, etc. etc.

I believe they added significant depth at CB and decent depth at LB. The OL has better depth and we have a new QB that has been an excellent student over the offseason. Gibbs & Co. will have the team marching to a different beat as he was embarassed last year.

that #1 CB is 32

that # QB is 36

that #1 DL is 30

that #1 LB will be 30 mid season

all old(er) and having injury problems. when you get old, injuries dont just go away. any older person (*dodges tomatoes*) can tell you this. injuries compound, and because we arent upgrading positions where older guys start, were going to be hurting. springs doesnt even seem like he wants to be on this team, after we blatantly tried to dump him this offseason, our QB situation is solved thank god, and griffin has been injured pretty significantly for 2 seasons now. washington should be ok, im not worried about him. i am worried about daniels/griffin/springs/salavea/wynn/prioleau, who were all big contributers to our top ranked defenses in 04 and 05. age caught up with them, and it should be a worrysome issue.

portis' injury was freak, he'll be back and fine this year. might miss a little time, but betts will be fine as a backup for a game or two if need be.

and youre right, injuries happen. other teams can rebound from it, we cannot because we have no servicable depth. say andre carter goes down during the season, who takes his place?? we have absolutely NOBODY that can fill his role, even decently at best. what happens if fletcher goes down at age 32? do you trust marshall coming in again and being pwned?

we dont use the draft effectively and we have no depth because of it, but thats for another thread. all of this stuff compounds, and needs to be addressed. hopefully gibbs stays true to his word and we have a full (or close to it) draft so we can finally start some sort of a youth movement for this club.

[dfbovey]

Demitri Evans took daniels spot that year and he was a beast. Why he dont get more burn at d-end i do not know but he is a beast at d-end him and nic clemons but i think nic clemons was cut. So i dont know.

A beast? Wow... it's amazing to me how the usage of this word is so wide spread. What exactly did Evans do that was beastly? I must have missed it...

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

A beast? Wow... it's amazing to me how the usage of this word is so wide spread. What exactly did Evans do that was beastly? I must have missed it...

why would you even try to discuss this? anyone who thinks demetric evans is a beast probably thinks ryan hoag is jerry rice.

[Bigredskin77]

tackles is a very bad stat. fletcher had 146 tackles last year on the 28th ranked run defense. if your LB is making 400 tackles but all of them are 6 yards past the LOS, it really doesnt matter. 3 of the top 5 highest tackles came from run defenses ranked 20th or below.

If you d-line is making alot of tackles. That means that they make them at the line of scrimmage or very close to it because their not going to chase anybody down especially no running back. But if you line backer are not making alot of tackles then you need to be replaced unless they get alot of sacks which was not the case. Thats why the linebacker coach was fired and not the D-line coach. Linebackers have to fill their gaps and they simply were not doing that last year. I seen where griffin or Golsten would plug up their wholes and the rb couldnt run their but when he switched lanes the linebacker wouldnt make the tackle or in warrick holdmans case just wouldnt be there period. Its like once they break past the line of scrimmage no one was going to get them becuase the linebackers were playing soft football.

[Chump Bailey]

He's more of an answer then Renaldo Wynn? Evans should have been starting at D-end. If he starts a full season you will see what i mean. The man is a pretty good player at d-end.

Evans did get a chance to shine last season and fell WAY short of expectations - my expectations anyways;)

I was not impressed with him at all. We really could use an upgrade on Daniels's side IMO. I think this next offseason we will see at least two new DL come aboard - I hope so anyway. I also hope Golston and Montgomery have progressed and have a great year.

[OVCChairman]

why would you even try to discuss this? anyone who thinks demetric evans is a beast probably thinks ryan hoag is jerry rice.

:laugh:

yeah, Evans isnt beastly....charles Mann was beastly, Dexter Manley was beastly...NOBODY on this D-Line is "beastly" right now. Carter has shown flashes but people like Mann and Manley played ferocious football 100% of the time.

[dfbovey]

The only hope our defensive line has of being good is if Griffin can stay healthy and Carter can play the whole season the way he played the 2nd half of last year.

I still think there needs to be someone to step up and claim that other starting DT spot and I'm not very comfortable with Daniels as our starter at LE. Wynn and Evans don't inspire alot of confidence either.

With the age and injuries this whole unit could fall apart again this year. When healthy they aren't a very intimidating group to begin with.

The improvements in the back 7 needed to be made, and I think it will help... but I don't expect to see a defense ranking in the top 10. I'd like to see it, but I think it's unreasonable to expect it.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

If you d-line is making alot of tackles. That means that they make them at the line of scrimmage or very close to it because their not going to chase anybody down especially no running back. But if you line backer are not making alot of tackles then you need to be replaced unless they get alot of sacks which was not the case. Thats why the linebacker coach was fired and not the D-line coach. Linebackers have to fill their gaps and they simply were not doing that last year. I seen where griffin or Golsten would plug up their wholes and the rb couldnt run their but when he switched lanes the linebacker wouldnt make the tackle or in warrick holdmans case just wouldnt be there period. Its like once they break past the line of scrimmage no one was going to get them becuase the linebackers were playing soft football.

dline isnt supposed to make tackles unless they completely shed their blocker and get into the backfield, like griffin used to do in 04.

andre carter - 56 tackles

c. griffin - 50 tackles

k golston - 44 tackles

p daniels - 37 tackles

187 tackles combined for our starting front 4

27th ranked run defense

lets take a look at the minnesota vikings

k udeze - 29 tackles

k williams - 36 tackles

p williams - 44 tackles

d scott - 46 tackles

155 tackles combined for their starting front 4

1st ranked run defense

when you dont have every 3rd down converted on you, youre going to tackle less because you wont be on the field. more tackles is actually worse because it means more offensive snaps were taken against you becuase your defense couldnt stop anyone.

and minnesotas LB corp was nothing to get excited about. their dline was stuffing the run, LBs were making solid tackles, nobody was getting yardage. i wish we barely had any tackles at all, that would mean we didnt miss any and we got our offense back on the field.

[Wyndorf25]

Demertic Evans wasnt bad (at least that year). What I liked about him was that he made some fine plays at critical times. What I did not like about him was that he would also go silent for long streatches. I believe that is the conclusion that the coaches came to as well, evidenced by his lack of playing time last year.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

The only hope our defensive line has of being good is if Griffin can stay healthy and Carter can play the whole season the way he played the 2nd half of last year.

I still think there needs to be someone to step up and claim that other starting DT spot and I'm not very comfortable with Daniels as our starter at LE. Wynn and Evans don't inspire alot of confidence either.

With the age and injuries this whole unit could fall apart again this year. When healthy they aren't a very intimidating group to begin with.

The improvements in the back 7 needed to be made, and I think it will help... but I don't expect to see a defense ranking in the top 10. I'd like to see it, but I think it's unreasonable to expect it.

couldnt agree more. if golston and mont turn out to be weak this season we are in huge trouble. and we can keep drafting defense with our first round picks, our offense is going to need upgrades at some point too. although im sure williams will draft another DB next year, we seem to do that every year.

[NoItAllRS]

it was our dline just as much as it was our linebackers. all of our dline got bullied around. warrick holdman sucked, but so did daniels/griffin/salavea. golston was decent at times and showed promise, but he was hardly great. relying on 30+ year old guys with injury concerns is a recipe for disaster.

We don't need a bunch of super stars on the Dline for it to be good. We need role players. Guys that are going to be where they need to be and do their job. I don't care if a guy is 40, if he can prevent a play coming to his side that's all that counts in my book. I think Daniels/Griffin/Salavea/Wynn do their jobs well when healthy. If their job is to be in gap A, they are in gap A. We had a lot of injuries last year in the Dline. Griff was hurt (our most dominate DL). Now he's healthy. Carter is showing that he is ready to give us a double digit sack year.(he is the sack DE) This is the position that needs to be filled and Carter is our answer. Carter needs to be able to be that dominate DE that we've been missing all these years. By the way he played at the end of the year, he is ready to bust out. Golston is a year better (strength/size/comfort in system). Montgomery was injured for the first part of the season (not many reps/action) and ive heard he's improved tremendously as well. (health/knowledge/size/strength) Wynn/Daniels have always been on very good run stopping defenses. That is their job/role on this defense and the coaches feel that they do that well. Big Joe was a big reason for our 04-05 defenses. He is very strong and can draw double teams and stuff the middle of an Oline. He is healthy. We have a good Dline right now.

Any player can get injured on any team at any time, (young/old) why not talk about a player being injured until after they're injured?

Players that you think won't stay healthy for the year will sometimes and sometimes they won't. You never know who it will be but they are healthy NOW.

Let's talk about the "NOW". The "NOW" is we have a good team.

[Redshu]

Look at Carolina for another example of a d-line handling their business. They have decent LB's and I can't even name their DB's but that may just be my 'lack of football knowledge' omgs! Anyways, their D line is exceptional.

Their CB's are Chris Gamble and Ken Lucas, neither of which, is a slouch.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

We don't need a bunch of super stars on the Dline for it to be good. We need role players. Guys that are going to be where they need to be and do their job. I don't care if a guy is 40, if he can prevent a play coming to his side that's all that counts in my book. I think Daniels/Griffin/Salavea/Wynn do their jobs well when healthy. If their job is to be in gap A, they are in gap A. We had a lot of injuries last year in the Dline. Griff was hurt (our most dominate DL). Now he's healthy. Carter is showing that he is ready to give us a double digit sack year.(he is the sack DE) This is the position that needs to be filled and Carter is our answer. Carter needs to be able to be that dominate DE that we've been missing all these years. By the way he played at the end of the year, he is ready to bust out. Golston is a year better (strength/size/comfort in system). Montgomery was injured for the first part of the season (not many reps/action) and ive heard he's improved tremendously as well. (health/knowledge/size/strength) Wynn/Daniels have always been on very good run stopping defenses. That is their job/role on this defense and the coaches feel that they do that well. Big Joe was a big reason for our 04-05 defenses. He is very strong and can draw double teams and stuff the middle of an Oline. He is healthy. We have a good Dline right now.

Any player can get injured on any team at any time, (young/old) why not talk about a player being injured until after they're injured?

Players that you think won't stay healthy for the year will sometimes and sometimes they won't. You never know who it will be but they are healthy NOW.

Let's talk about the "NOW". The "NOW" is we have a good team.

if you think we have a good dline right now, i feel really sorry for you. our dline is old, unproven, and incapable of rushing the passer sans carter who has all of 1 good month under his belt. i think carter will be good this year, but hes not a run stopper. daniels is bad, griffin has been injured for two straight years, somehow you think he will magically be healthy at age 30 for the first time in 2 years. salavea was so weak he couldnt even start last year, and were resting our dlines effectiveness on a 292 DT that got blown off the line a lot, and another DT who has one start under his belt where we had a guy set his all time rushing record on us. if this is "good", i dread thinking about what you consider "bad".

[Bigredskin77]

dline isnt supposed to make tackles unless they completely shed their blocker and get into the backfield, like griffin used to do in 04.

andre carter - 56 tackles

c. griffin - 50 tackles

k golston - 44 tackles

p daniels - 37 tackles

187 tackles combined for our starting front 4

27th ranked run defense

lets take a look at the minnesota vikings

k udeze - 29 tackles

k williams - 36 tackles

p williams - 44 tackles

d scott - 46 tackles

155 tackles combined for their starting front 4

1st ranked run defense

when you dont have every 3rd down converted on you, youre going to tackle less because you wont be on the field. more tackles is actually worse because it means more offensive snaps were taken against you becuase your defense couldnt stop anyone.

and minnesotas LB corp was nothing to get excited about. their dline was stuffing the run, LBs were making solid tackles, nobody was getting yardage. i wish we barely had any tackles at all, that would mean we didnt miss any and we got our offense back on the field.

Minnesota Linebackers new how to do their jobs and tackle and thats what they did. But the skins linebackers last year sucked big time. It wasnt the D-line faults the Linebackers were horrible. They hit nobody. Thats what i was that we needed more players like sean taylor on defense becuase our linebackers were soft. Holdman and Marshal were terrible last year. The stuck nobody. Thats why i was glad we got landry. Another hard hitter who is going to punish offenses. Marshall also needs to get his act together or he is gone. he was on the verge of being cut last year. Our linebacker core is better this year with the addition of Fletcher and the depth we have added but they need to get physical. Diving at peoples legs should not be tolerated this year. I hate that form of tackling. Lemar Marshal was divin at quarterbacks legs last year instead of hitting them straight up. Defense acts scared to hit people sometimes. Players are lettin us down.