Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Question: Why would we ditch Hollenbach when all the mini-camp reports indicate he is performing better than Palmer at this point? i hadnt heard those reports, but if thats true, maybe we keep hollenbach. im really not too concerned about what QB we keep on the practice squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Day Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 3rd & 0-2 50.03rd & 3-7 60.5 3rd & 8-10 55.0 3rd & 11+ 47.1 3rd & <6 45.5 3rd & 6+ 59.7 that averages out to about 53%. pretty weak, compared to good QBs like drew brees who converted on average 68% of his 3rd down conversions, or manning who completed 61% of his. obviously hes not those guys, but 53 isnt very good. but heres some even more interesting stats on mark brunell. these are mind boggling. he attempted 260 passes in 06. 70 of those pass attempts were thrown BEHIND THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE. thats 27% of his passes. behind the line. passes thrown 1-10 yards, he attempted 119. thats 46% of his passes thrown that short. so combined with his behind the LOS, thats 73% of his passes were thrown 10 yards or less. thats not good. the reason his completion percentage was so high is because 73% of the time he was making passes that most of us could probably make. and some of you wonder why the run game was struggling. do the math. if 3/4 times the ball is going short, why play 20 yards back? when he did attempt to go past that, thats where his numbers get funny. 11-20 yards - 44 attempts, 15 completions - 34.1% completion rating. 17% of his passes where in this range. that is unacceptable for a professional QB in the nfl. Manning completed 68% of those passes, Brees completed 62% of those, Palmer completed 55%, Bulger completed 58% of his. 34% at a medium distance completedly KILLED our running game. even campbell completed 49% of his 11-20 yard passes, and what do you know, our running game completely pulled a 180. 34% vs 49% is a big difference. brunell was awful, these numbers and our offenses numbers showed it. people wonder why our receiving corp struggled this season. look no further than dump offs and passes under 10 yards 73% of the time, and a 34% completion rate from 11-20 yards for 9 games out of the season. So what you are saying is that it wasn't all a bad dream and he really did suck that bad. Those stats should have ended any MB love that was left, gentlemen it really was him. I go for cutting his arse this year and taking the cap hit if we can still squeeze Cooley in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 So what you are saying is that it wasn't all a bad dream and he really did suck that bad.Those stats should have ended any MB love that was left, gentlemen it really was him. I go for cutting his arse this year and taking the cap hit if we can still squeeze Cooley in. 2006 mark brunell wasnt a bad dream, it was a living nightmare of epic proportions. what im really waiting for is someone to come and attempt to defend those numbers. 73% of mark brunells 260 attempts were thrown under 10 yards. that is mind numbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaught76 Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 i hadnt heard those reports, but if thats true, maybe we keep hollenbach. im really not too concerned about what QB we keep on the practice squad. Fair enough. I believe JimmiJo and Murf mentioned it in their minicamp coverage reports. http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201142&highlight=Minicamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Day Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 2006 mark brunell wasnt a bad dream, it was a living nightmare of epic proportions. what im really waiting for is someone to come and attempt to defend those numbers. 73% of mark brunells 260 attempts were thrown under 10 yards. that is mind numbing. Like I said those numbers should end any debate. Would have been nice to have them earlier (Good job finding them). Those numbers are a defensive coordinators dream. There was no fear of any deap threats (outside of moss breaking free). Explains how they could double and shade a LB for a Triple team of moss, explains the ineffectiveness of the trick plays. It explains everything if a D coordinator can make all his guys go forward on 1st and 2nd down. 34% :doh: One word Pathetic BTW outside of the injury excuss there is no defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Like I said those numbers should end any debate. Would have been nice to have them earlier (Good job finding them). Those numbers are a defensive coordinators dream. There was no fear of any deap threats (outside of moss breaking free). Explains how they could double and shade a LB for a Triple team of moss, explains the ineffectiveness of the trick plays. It explains everything if a D coordinator can make all his guys go forward on 1st and 2nd down.34% :doh: One word Pathetic BTW outside of the injury excuss there is no defense. i wish id found them earlier as well, theyre on espn, i just never looked under splits. if youre a defensive coordinator, and you know that 73% of his passes are going under 10 yards, why bother having any saftey help deep? or even ONE saftey playing deep? you can keep everybody at home and wait for brunell to throw short, then pwn the hell out of him. once campbell came in, he could throw those 10-20 yard passes more effectively, which opened up our running game for betts. imagine if portis had seen the defensive structures that betts was seeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Fair enough.I believe JimmiJo and Murf mentioned it in their minicamp coverage reports. http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201142&highlight=Minicamp if hollenbach looks better, he should get the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapaDRoc Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Goodbye Mr. Collins Yea that has to be who we are getting rid of. I just think Brunell would be a better back-up with more experience, not only if he had to step in if Campbell got hurt (god forbid), but also to help JC along the way this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Day Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 i wish id found them earlier as well, theyre on espn, i just never looked under splits. if youre a defensive coordinator, and you know that 73% of his passes are going under 10 yards, why bother having any saftey help deep? or even ONE saftey playing deep? you can keep everybody at home and wait for brunell to throw short, then pwn the hell out of him. once campbell came in, he could throw those 10-20 yard passes more effectively, which opened up our running game for betts. imagine if portis had seen the defensive structures that betts was seeing.[/QUOTE] This is something I mentioned in on of the other threads about the skins having the 4th ranked running game last year. I can't wait to see a always fresh CP and LB running with a deep passing game threat. Should be fun to watch and with the impending suspension of Vick there is no reason we won't be the #1 rushing team this year if JC can even put up average numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 so i guess no one wants to argue about brunell anymore. end thread/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Question: Why would we ditch Hollenbach when all the mini-camp reports indicate he is performing better than Palmer at this point? My bet is that we go to TC with 5 QB's. None of the young guys will be cut until the first cutdown date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 so i guess no one wants to argue about brunell anymore. end thread/ Being that I'm in completed agreeance with you BLC, I guess you just powned the Brunnell lovers. Think of how many threads could've been saved if only we had this information earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 3rd & 0-2 50.03rd & 3-7 60.5 3rd & 8-10 55.0 3rd & 11+ 47.1 3rd & <6 45.5 3rd & 6+ 59.7 that averages out to about 53%. pretty weak, compared to good QBs like drew brees who converted on average 68% of his 3rd down conversions, or manning who completed 61% of his. obviously hes not those guys, but 53 isnt very good. but heres some even more interesting stats on mark brunell. these are mind boggling. he attempted 260 passes in 06. 70 of those pass attempts were thrown BEHIND THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE. thats 27% of his passes. behind the line. passes thrown 1-10 yards, he attempted 119. thats 46% of his passes thrown that short. so combined with his behind the LOS, thats 73% of his passes were thrown 10 yards or less. thats not good. the reason his completion percentage was so high is because 73% of the time he was making passes that most of us could probably make. and some of you wonder why the run game was struggling. do the math. if 3/4 times the ball is going short, why play 20 yards back? when he did attempt to go past that, thats where his numbers get funny. 11-20 yards - 44 attempts, 15 completions - 34.1% completion rating. 17% of his passes where in this range. that is unacceptable for a professional QB in the nfl. Manning completed 68% of those passes, Brees completed 62% of those, Palmer completed 55%, Bulger completed 58% of his. 34% at a medium distance completedly KILLED our running game. even campbell completed 49% of his 11-20 yard passes, and what do you know, our running game completely pulled a 180. 34% vs 49% is a big difference. brunell was awful, these numbers and our offenses numbers showed it. people wonder why our receiving corp struggled this season. look no further than dump offs and passes under 10 yards 73% of the time, and a 34% completion rate from 11-20 yards for 9 games out of the season. Without Portis in, and none of the other running backs stepping up at the time, how do you know a lot of the play calling wasn't behind the lines and dump offs. The team said they like to get the ball in the hands of playmakers and let them do what they can. Could also be a reason why so many screen plays were called. Where did you get these numbers by the way? What was the league average 3rd down completion percentage among all starting QBs? That would be nice to know instead of just pointing out the top 5 QBs in the league and comparing Brunell's stats to them. Nobody here said MB was a top 5 QB. So why not compare him to all the QBS, instead of trying to proclaim the thread is closed, when you really have only had one point, poor 3rd down conversions, which you haven't even fully proven. 53% could be bad, or it could be above league average. That's more important and realistic than trying to compare MB with Brees and Peyton. How did the other QBs in the NFC East do on 3rd downs for that matter. Hmmm, funny how a QB who had shoulder problems all season, requiring him to get surgery afterward, and was learning a whole new system and had no run support could struggle a little. Bottom line is he had twice as many TDs as INTs. So while Mark may play it safe, he doesn't commit a lot of errors, and can manage a game. Plus, MB does much better when healthy. AS A BACK UP, Brunell won't have the injury concerns as he won't feel the wear and tear of starting a whole season. MB won't commit a bunch of turnovers either. As a back up, Brunell is one of the best in the league. Now if you could see past your unwarranted hate, you would realize that. Or I could again show the back-up QB for every NFL team, and re-explain that Brunell is better than 80% of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsGuy Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Being that I'm in completed agreeance with you BLC, I guess you just powned the Brunnell lovers. Think of how many threads could've been saved if only we had this information earlier. He didn't own anyone. He just ignored my post. It's easy to think you've trumped everyone's arguments when you ignore posts, then delude yourself into thinking you've "pnwned" someone by writing "ha ha" and the end of every paragraph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 so i guess no one wants to argue about brunell anymore. end thread/ http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8440 ESPN stats show Campbell was 48.6 % on converting thrid downs. I'm no mathmetician, but I think that is less than Brunell's 53%. On 3rd and 8-10, MB was 55%, JC was 33.3%. To his credit, Campbell did fare slightly better on 3rd and 11+, with a 58.3%, which is better than Brunell's 47%. However, overall MB converted 56% (not 53%) of all 3rd downs, JC converted 48.6%. And if you had actually bothered to look at ALL of Brunell's stats, it is quite clear you are manipulating stats. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=445 Brunell was 60% on 1st and 11+, he was 80% on 2nd and 11+, he was 47.1% on 3rd and 11+ (when the defense knew he was going to throw). So overall, Brunell was 62% on passes attempted of 11+ yards. Campbell was 65% on passes attempted of 11+ yards (15/23). So maybe, just maybe, it was the running game that helped JC, not the other way around as is the popular myth. So maybe now we can be pompous and declare a thread closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Without Portis in, and none of the other running backs stepping up at the time, how do you know a lot of the play calling wasn't behind the lines and dump offs. The team said they like to get the ball in the hands of playmakers and let them do what they can. Could also be a reason why so many screen plays were called. portis played in 7 of the 9 games brunell started, 8 if you count the philly game, which im not cause he played for like 5 minutes. getting the ball into the hands of the playmakers, in my opinion, doesnt mean just giving them ball with no gained yardage and letting them juke the entire defense out. i highly doubt that hall of fame coach joe gibbs would use that as some sort of strategy. i think youre overstating what that comment really means. maybe so many screen plays were called because brunell physically couldnt throw the ball any further. 17% of his 260 passes were thrown 10-20 yards, and of those 17%, he only completed 34% of those. 25% of campbells passes were thrown between 10-20 yards downfield, and he completed 49% of those. so not only was he throwing more passes down the field, he was completing a good bit more of them. campbell was capable of making these throws even as a rookie, whereas brunell couldnt physically do it, so he relied on screen passes instead, which teams knew, so they stacked up on us. this isnt hard to grasp. if brunell throws 73% of his passes short, do the math, teams dont need to play deep. campbell only threw 60% of his passes short, so the other 40% of the time he was throwing 11+ yards down field. thats a big difference. Where did you get these numbers by the way? What was the league average 3rd down completion percentage among all starting QBs? That would be nice to know instead of just pointing out the top 5 QBs in the league and comparing Brunell's stats to them. Nobody here said MB was a top 5 QB. So why not compare him to all the QBS, instead of trying to proclaim the thread is closed, when you really have only had one point, poor 3rd down conversions, which you haven't even fully proven. 53% could be bad, or it could be above league average. That's more important and realistic than trying to compare MB with Brees and Peyton. How did the other QBs in the NFC East do on 3rd downs for that matter. numbers are all straight from espn, go to brunells profile and click on splits. pretty interesting stats, they had them for all QBs i looked at (except david carr, dont know why, or maybe my computer was just being lame). here are some other not so awesome QBs 3rd down completion ratings, including the 3 NFC east ones: E manning: 47.7% mcnabb: 48.5% Romo sits to pee: 70.6% (lets not show cowboy fans this ok? ) heres some others John Kitna: 53.5% JP Losman: 55.2% Jake Delhomme: 52.2% Rex Grossman: 50.3% Tom Brady: 50.2% so after looking at this stuff more in depth, seems like brunell is around the middle of the pack for 3rd down completion. i dont see anybody worse than manning, although i havent looked at everyone. but he only played 9 games vs all these others who played close to full seasons (although mcnabb on 3rd down is a little surprising). so ill admit i thought his 3rd down rating was worse than it really was. Hmmm, funny how a QB who had shoulder problems all season, requiring him to get surgery afterward, and was learning a whole new system and had no run support could struggle a little. Bottom line is he had twice as many TDs as INTs. So while Mark may play it safe, he doesn't commit a lot of errors, and can manage a game. Plus, MB does much better when healthy. AS A BACK UP, Brunell won't have the injury concerns as he won't feel the wear and tear of starting a whole season. MB won't commit a bunch of turnovers either. As a back up, Brunell is one of the best in the league. Now if you could see past your unwarranted hate, you would realize that. Or I could again show the back-up QB for every NFL team, and re-explain that Brunell is better than 80% of them. thats complete ridiculousness. he had no run support because of his inability to throw the ball. ive showed you his numbers, 73% of passes went 10 yards or less. why would any D coordinator in their right mind even attempt to line people up deep when they know theres a 73% chance the ball is going short?? that ruins the run game, because now everyone is close to the line. there is no "hate" for brunell, i dont think hes capable of running an offense in the NFL anymore, even as a backup. i will be very scared if he has to come in to play for this team, and so should anybody who watched him last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8440ESPN stats show Campbell was 48.6 % on converting thrid downs. I'm no mathmetician, but I think that is less than Brunell's 53%. On 3rd and 8-10, MB was 55%, JC was 33.3%. To his credit, Campbell did fare slightly better on 3rd and 11+, with a 58.3%, which is better than Brunell's 47%. However, overall MB converted 56% (not 53%) of all 3rd downs, JC converted 48.6%. And if you had actually bothered to look at ALL of Brunell's stats, it is quite clear you are manipulating stats. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=445 Brunell was 60% on 1st and 11+, he was 80% on 2nd and 11+, he was 47.1% on 3rd and 11+ (when the defense knew he was going to throw). So overall, Brunell was 62% on passes attempted of 11+ yards. Campbell was 65% on passes attempted of 11+ yards (15/23). So maybe, just maybe, it was the running game that helped JC, not the other way around as is the popular myth. So maybe now we can be pompous and declare a thread closed. im seeing campbell completing 52.75% of his 3rd down conversions. i took all of his 3rd down pass completion ratings according to espn, added them up, and divded by 6 (the number they provided). how are you getting your numbers? again, ive already said yeah brunell convered 3rd downs ok. but throwing 73% of your passes 10 yards or less is unacceptable in the nfl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 I still agree with BLC. He gave you information to back it up and all you could do is pick out the 3rd down percentage. What about the 73% of his passes going for less than 10 yards. Or the 34% completion rate from over 10 yards? I don't hate on Brunnell, I just think his time is done in the NFL and if we have to rely on him for more than 1 or 2 games, we're screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 im seeing campbell completing 52.75% of his 3rd down conversions. i took all of his 3rd down pass completion ratings according to espn, added them up, and divded by 6 (the number they provided). how are you getting your numbers? again, ive already said yeah brunell convered 3rd downs ok. but throwing 73% of your passes 10 yards or less is unacceptable in the nfl. The splits page has a total for all downs above the individual down breakdown. Jason Campbell had 23 of 207 pass attempts 11+ yards. Campbell completed 15 of 23 passes 11+ yards. Mark Brunell had 37 of 260 pass attempts 11 + yards. Brunell completed 23 of 37 passes 11+ yards. 11% of JC's passes attempted were 11+ yards. 14% of MB's passes attempted were 11+ yards. JC had a 11+ yard completion percentage of 65 (15/23). Brunell's percentage was 62 (23/37). I'm comfortable with Brunell as a back up. I'm not sure where you got 34% percent from, but again, how do we know the play calling wasn't asking Brunell to keep it around 8-10 yards? I saw an awful lot of screens. Could just as well have been the coaches easing the system in. Either way, we put up points in games, and the defense allowing 24 points a game is what did the team in, not Mark Brunell, who over all was in the 80's for passer rating, finishing higher than Campbell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 I still agree with BLC. He gave you information to back it up and all you could do is pick out the 3rd down percentage. What about the 73% of his passes going for less than 10 yards. Or the 34% completion rate from over 10 yards? I don't hate on Brunnell, I just think his time is done in the NFL and if we have to rely on him for more than 1 or 2 games, we're screwed. I gave plenty of info before that, and all BLC did was point out third downs, so I went after that as well. If you read my earlier post I explained that. And over 10 yards Brunell was 23 of 37, or 62%. JC was 65%. Got to go to work now. I'll be back on later tonite to revist this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyriggins Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Its time for Gibbs II to FINALLY get rid of his mistake! Bye Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyominghansen Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 I think that it will be; Campbell #1 Brunell #2 (primarily because of contract) Collins (either gone or as a coach) Bramlet #3 Palmer PS (because the FO doesn't want to show that they wasted a pick, and more jerseys would be sold w/Palmer's name on it) Hollenbach (gone by default, even if he is better than Palmer, it won't be the first time that a quality QB gets cut in favor of a namesake) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHOPSkins Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Picking Collns over Brunell is ridicules......given Brunells record vs Collins Vets are important to the squad, so one stays Some negatives on Brunell will be rectified this season (durability/Injury, learning curve) I am real happy with Brunell at #2 Let the Brunell Bashers rank all the #2 QBs in the league to prove/disprove my opinion (our #2 beats some #1s!!!!!) I am happy with Bramlet at #3 (if NFLE success translates) #4 is interesting and somewhat irrelevant (lets hope) HTTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cphil006 Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Casey Bramlet could be a valuable asset for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cphil006 Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Mark is a solid back-up for us. If Campbell gets injured, Collins is aweful, and Bramlet doesn't know the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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