Article: CJ once-in-a-lifetime

[Dirk Diggler]

Page 3, specifically, to save you time. The idea is original, hasn't been posted anywhere else on this site, and would allow us to have everything we want: Calvin Johnson, a stud defensive lineman at the 6 spot, and virutally all of our draft choices next season. Unfortunately, the poster has nnt, so I don't think many people will find it. Refreshing to say the least.

:logo:

Listen dude, you must live in fantasy candy land if you think Portis is going to fetch the #2 pick in the draft. There's only one RB in the league who could do that - LT. Besides, Detroit is in pretty good shape at RB with Kevin Jones, Tatum Bell, and TJ Duckett.

It's not feasible for us either since we'd end up taking a 6-8 million dollar cap hit on Portis's bonus money. Trading him would force us to CUT other players. So just cool it with pimping this trade - makes you look ingnorant on a number of fronts.

[desioreo87]

Om....take one minute and look at the proposal suggested on this thread.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195929

Page 3, specifically, to save you time. The idea is original, hasn't been posted anywhere else on this site, and would allow us to have everything we want: Calvin Johnson, a stud defensive lineman at the 6 spot, and virutally all of our draft choices next season. Unfortunately, the poster has nnt, so I don't think many people will find it. Refreshing to say the least.

:logo:

Dude, sorry to say this but you trade idea sucks. I know you think there wouldn't be a significant dropoff between Betts and CP but there absolutely would be. The difference between betts and portis is that with Portis we beat St. Louis. With portis he would have averaged 5.5 ypc. Portis ahs better vision, better run power, and better break tackle ability. There is no dispute here. You cannot trade portis because as good as betts was last 7 games last year, he was a product of a totally different running style. Gibbs changed the running game after CP got hurt. You didn't see anymore stretch plays in the last 7 games, it was all north-south from teh beginning to the end of every game. CP was never given that chance and with those holes and his vision the dude would have turned those carries that betts got into 2 to 4 more TDs no doubt.

Sorry to highjack this thread. But I would absolutely LOVE to see CJ in a redskins jersey. However I don't think we can afford to pass up a Dlinemen. I think we have to trade down and acquire a mid first round pick and get a 2nd round pick as well. Therefore we can get a solid big receiver and also get one of the myriad Dlinemen in the draft who are all equally solid and I dont like spending #6 money on a Dlinemen when we can get someone who is almost equal to him in the mid to late first round, which would cost us loads less. But realy if I here CJ's name being called then I will be just as ecstatic as if they call out Anderson, Adams, or Okoye.

[The Sir]

Calvin Johnson did go up against top secondary talent in his three years at Georgia Tech. Whether you like the ACC or not, there's no debating that. Antrell Rolle, Jimmy Williams, Paul Oliver, Demario Minter, Tim Jennings, Justin Miller, Tye Hill, and many more. And those are just the corners I'm talking about. He was always double and triple covered and had some great safeties playing over top of him.

But the main reason he's so great is he did everything he did with Reggie Ball throwing him the ball.

You look at someone like Andre Johnson. A similar physical specimen who went #2 or #3 overall to the Texans a few years ago. He was not quite the specimen Calvin Johnson is, but was definitely similar in that regard. His stats I don't think were quite as good as CJ's were, but people gave him a pass I believe because they said he had Ken Dorsey throwing to him. Well, Calvin Johnson's stats were pretty damn good last year and he had Reggie Ball throwing to him.

[Siven]

Look, 3 starters for 1. if first round talent is very good to great, then we are giving up 2 very good players. look at the patriots, no star receiver, great dline, good to very good all around. Not great in a few and then sucky in the rest. You win championships by being BALANCED. We are not balanced right now.

Besides, what's the fascination with this kid.

6-4 240 ran a 4.35 42 vertical great hands, humble, team player, never did bench reps (no real reason to though), broad jump 11 7

VERNON DAVIS

6-3 256 ran a 4.38 42 vertical great hands, humble, team player, 33 reps of 225 lbs (that's like NFL offensive lineman strength, broad jump 10 8

BIG DEAL ABOUT CJ, Vernon Davis is just as fast, just as good leaping ability, strong as hell, and has great hands too. GUESS WHAT

CJ IS NOT A ONCE IN A LIFETIME PLAYER

evidenced by the fact Vernon Davis was drafted last year. Vernon Davis has the size, speed, overall athletic ability to be a WR. His productivity is probably limited by the fact he is playing TE. Seriously, people need to calm down, CJ is NOT going to revolutionize the position. We won't be betting him for a few reasons.

1. We need defensive line, we gave too many rushers career or year best performances

2. He won't be there at 6

3. Tampa Bay has 4th overall, 35th overall, 64 overall, PLUS, their 1st, 2nd, third. Way way way more then what we have to offer

4. If Gibbs truely wants to win a superbowl in the next 2-3 years. Because we'll have to outbid Tampa Bay by a lot, 2 firsts and a third will NOT get it done, we'll lose 4-5 very good players. Sorry, never ever does the contribution of 1 exceed 4-5. Our offensive line is old, it'll need youth, LB corp is old, it needs youth, we need a corner, a safety.

5. He isn't once in a lifetime. All you CJ advocates, next year, at precisely this time, are going to be going crazy over some TE or some WR or something as can't miss once in a lifetime player, and guess what, they aren't can't miss.

6. Again, for emphasis, he's not worth 4-5 starters

[The Sir]

It's retarded to compare Vernon Davis and Calvin Johnson. If you've ever watched the two play, the difference is pretty huge even if they are athletically similar.

[chiramu]

In some parallel universe, there's a chance CJ could fall to #6. Hey, a guy can dream, right?

[McD5]

Listen dude, you must live in fantasy candy land if you think Portis is going to fetch the #2 pick in the draft. There's only one RB in the league who could do that - LT. Besides, Detroit is in pretty good shape at RB with Kevin Jones, Tatum Bell, and TJ Duckett.

It's not feasible for us either since we'd end up taking a 6-8 million dollar cap hit on Portis's bonus money. Trading him would force us to CUT other players. So just cool it with pimping this trade - makes you look ingnorant on a number of fronts.

[McD5]

Listen dude, you must live in fantasy candy land if you think Portis is going to fetch the #2 pick in the draft. There's only one RB in the league who could do that - LT. Besides, Detroit is in pretty good shape at RB with Kevin Jones, Tatum Bell, and TJ Duckett.

It's not feasible for us either since we'd end up taking a 6-8 million dollar cap hit on Portis's bonus money. Trading him would force us to CUT other players. So just cool it with pimping this trade - makes you look ingnorant on a number of fronts.

Thank you. I certainly don't want to look "ingnorant." Whatever that is. :laugh:

Portis and Brandon LLoyd......plus maybe a 2 or 3 next year. Pretty appealing versus drafting a rookie running back, already injured, potential bust in Peterson to a team in the top 3.

Oh it could be done. And it would also allow us the defensive stud at 6. And it would bring Calvin Johnson, and allow us to keep the great majority of futures picks.

If nothing else...it is original. Sorry to introduce any original thought into the forum. Continue your reading of the 1000th trade anything for CJ thread.

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[cnhnyy]

We just simply do not have enough amo to pull it off. Tama Bay is draft #4 and they have two No.2 and a No.3 while we are two slots behind with no other picks. (Pls, CP will not fetch a #2 for us.)

#2 is worth 2600 while #4 is 1800 and #6 is 1600

For Tampa, their two No.2 (#35 and #64) this year are worth 810 and makes up the difference.

For us, in order to make a 1000 point difference, we have to trade away our entire first day picks (No.1, No.2 and No.3) next year to get closer to 1000 points.

[Dirk Diggler]

Thank you. I certainly don't want to look "ingnorant." Whatever that is. :laugh:

That's called a typo. Nice comeback.

Portis and Brandon LLoyd......plus maybe a 2 or 3 next year. Pretty appealing versus drafting a rookie running back, already injured, potential bust in Peterson to a team in the top 3.

If nothing else...it is original. Sorry to introduce any original thought into the forum. Continue your reading of the 1000th trade anything for CJ thread.

:logo:

I have no problem with original ideas that are well thought out. But I can see that might be too much to ask of you. As of last month's bonus payment - we have 10 mill in bonus money locked up in Llyod. So combined with Portis, we're now looking at a cap hit of roughly 15 mill for a team that's about 4 million under the cap. Any other original ideas? :thumbsup:

[The Sir]

We just simply do not have enough amo to pull it off. Tama Bay is draft #4 and they have two No.2 and a No.3 while we are two slots behind with no other picks. (Pls, CP will not fetch a #2 for us.)

#2 is worth 2600 while #4 is 1800 and #6 is 1600

For Tampa, their two No.2 (#35 and #64) this year are worth 810 and makes up the difference.

For us, in order to make a 1000 point difference, we have to trade away our entire first day picks (No.1, No.2 and No.3) next year to get closer to 1000 points.

whoa, where are these numbers coming from?

[ceviker]

We just simply do not have enough amo to pull it off. Tama Bay is draft #4 and they have two No.2 and a No.3 while we are two slots behind with no other picks. (Pls, CP will not fetch a #2 for us.)

#2 is worth 2600 while #4 is 1800 and #6 is 1600

For Tampa, their two No.2 (#35 and #64) this year are worth 810 and makes up the difference.

For us, in order to make a 1000 point difference, we have to trade away our entire first day picks (No.1, No.2 and No.3) next year to get closer to 1000 points.

You're right in that we don't have enough fire power in terms of draft picks to compete with TB. There've been rumors though that the Lions don't want to just stock pile picks - that they want a player. Rumors also say that Springs is a player they want, with the departure of Dre Bly. Maybe even a Lamar Marshall or something. Its all speculation and truth of the matter is that we just don't know and won't know until draft day.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Even if CJ is once in a lifetime, he doesn't play a postition at which we need help. Look at the Rams. They have Bruce, Holt, and Steven Jackson. Not to mention they had Faulk. They should be perennial contenders, right? When's the last time they went anywhere? They've been top 10 in yardage for 8 straight years. Six out of those 8 years they were top 11 in points scored.

What was the knock on the Chiefs the last few years where they were scoring points like nobody's business? They lacked defense.

You need a balanced team to get to the big dance. Our offense is pretty potent as it is. If Campbell is anywhere close to decent, we'll have no problem scoring points. If we sustain injuries on the DL again we won't be stopping anyone. Judging by our injury rate the last couple of years on DL, chances are pretty good that one or more of them will go down for multiple games. Go DL. At the very least we'll grab some depth and in the best case scenario we'll grab a stud that'll be productive for years to come. If you have good lines, the skill players can be more productive.

[ceviker]

whoa, where are these numbers coming from?

The draft value chart that everyone uses:

http://www.theredzone.org/2006/draft/draftvaluechart.asp

[NOVA2Tampa]

You need a balanced team to get to the big dance. Our offense is pretty potent as it is. If Campbell is anywhere close to decent, we'll have no problem scoring points. If we sustain injuries on the DL again we won't be stopping anyone. Judging by our injury rate the last couple of years on DL, chances are pretty good that one or more of them will go down for multiple games. Go DL. At the very least we'll grab some depth and in the best case scenario we'll grab a stud that'll be productive for years to come. If you have good lines, the skill players can be more productive.

Exactly...the offense is not our problem...

[WileCoyote]

Simple solution...... we fake an injury to CJ post fake news so nobody drafts him and he'll be there @6 would that work? :laugh:

[Siven]

Comparing Vernon Davis and CJ isn't really a bad comparison. One had reggie ball, other had hollenbach (who also sucks). Both are athletic freaks. CJ has no after the catch ability, or after contact for that matter. Don't compare him to T.O. when TO is the best in the league at after the catch and after contact.

[nemocystem]

Even if CJ is once in a lifetime, he doesn't play a postition at which we need help. Look at the Rams. They have Bruce, Holt, and Steven Jackson. Not to mention they had Faulk. They should be perennial contenders, right? When's the last time they went anywhere? They've been top 10 in yardage for 8 straight years. Six out of those 8 years they were top 11 in points scored.

What was the knock on the Chiefs the last few years where they were scoring points like nobody's business? They lacked defense.

You need a balanced team to get to the big dance. Our offense is pretty potent as it is. If Campbell is anywhere close to decent, we'll have no problem scoring points. If we sustain injuries on the DL again we won't be stopping anyone. Judging by our injury rate the last couple of years on DL, chances are pretty good that one or more of them will go down for multiple games. Go DL. At the very least we'll grab some depth and in the best case scenario we'll grab a stud that'll be productive for years to come. If you have good lines, the skill players can be more productive.

this would have been a good argument except:

1) the Rams stopped winning Super Bowls when Martz & co. stopped running the football & the last 2 years they've had O-line trouble & aren't as effective as say...the Redskins at running the football. that will change soon with Linehan as coach. once their young O-lineman get it together & they can power the football more frequently you can forget about stopping that Offense & you'll see a 3-6 minute rise in ball control.

2) as bad as the Rams D was, the Chifs D was atrocious. part of it was scheme, some of it was a complete lack of talent & the rest was just terrible tackling, or lack thereof.

--you can certainly compare the Offensive potential (note the word potential) once we (hypothetically speaking) acquire CJ. however, that's where the comparisons between the teams ends. these are the main reasons:

1) our Defense, while it was bad last year, was astounding the two years prior. we kept most pieces of that Defense together, so why did we do so poorly last year? well, for starters...we didn't have many. we had an injury plagued season...it happens, it was just unfortunate that last year it was us that caught the injury bug. just ask the Eagles how it feels.

I'll take the two years vs. the 1 as the more likely position for our Defensive performance heading into next year. that being said, let's be pessimistic for a minute & say, for argument's sake, that we'll take the median from the 3 seasons as a gauge for next season. that still places us at best around 12-13th in the league, or at worst 16-17th overall Defense. that alone would dictate then, that we would still be at best 16-17 spots better or worst 12-13 spots better than either of those two aforementioned teams.

what's more is, if you take that median as a gauge & still go with the worst-case scenario shown above where we are only 12-13 spots better Defensively than either two teams I gaurantee that adding CJ would, hypothetically of course, improve our Defense another 2-4 slots (possibly more) based on Offensive ball control alone. also...converting a few more times on 3rd downs & converting a few more times for TD's instead of FG's or no points at all will further place pressure in terms of field position & scoreboard for the opposition, usually resulting in less patience for the run game.

2) you might say that the Chiefs were a closer comparison (barring Defensive inefficiency) based on their ability to run the football, however they did two things differently that I don't believe we will be doing here in D.C. one is they run a quick-huddle Offense. it's not quite no-huddle, but they get in & out of the huddle very quickly so they can work with more clock for audibles & keep the Defense from getting comfortable. two, the Chiefs & the Rams teams that are in debate here were very non-chilant about protecting the football. they would flaunder away numerous opportunities at scoring or ball possession in order to give the long ball that 'ol college try. they threw alot of INT's those teams did & while JC will make mistakes, he & Joe Gibbs, they will be far more concerned with protecting the footbal.

less turnovers means more rest for the defense.

I'm not saying CJ is the be all, end all. I've said on many occassions I wouldn't be mad whichever way they decide so long as it's Safety, D-line, or CJ. if you want to make a proper comparison, though, to how this might play out. your best comparison would likely be the '99 Rams or '98 Vikings where both Defenses weren't great. but they were made to look much better because of the pressure their Offenses ability to put incredible pressure on the other team's gameplan/play-calling ability. once they got an early lead the Defense was able to "pin their ears back" & attack which lead to more turnovers, which lead to more points which lead to more pressure...this is where countless teams just gave up on the run almost completely against them & greatly skewed their run Defense numbers for those years.

you see how it affected both teams in the years after, heck Minnesota lost to Atlanta because they couldn't stop Jamal Anderson.

in the end. I would love to get CJ. don't believe it will happen though & so long as we don't blow up our draft for no good reason, I'm pretty certain that our FO will do what's in our best interest with whatever it's forced to deal with.

[HoyaSkins28]

the only way i would take him is if he falls to six. and then i might not even take him because teams like tennessee would be dying to grab him

[jrfriedm]

Over Rated!!!!!!!

[WileCoyote]

Over Rated!!!!!!!

I hope your kidding.........

[909997]

wasnt reggie bush once in a lifetime talent to come out?

CJ is nothing compared to what bush was in college.

[ArmchairRedskin]

this would have been a good argument except:

1) the Rams stopped winning Super Bowls when Martz & co. stopped running the football & the last 2 years they've had O-line trouble & aren't as effective as say...the Redskins at running the football. that will change soon with Linehan as coach. once their young O-lineman get it together & they can power the football more frequently you can forget about stopping that Offense & you'll see a 3-6 minute rise in ball control.

2) as bad as the Rams D was, the Chifs D was atrocious. part of it was scheme, some of it was a complete lack of talent & the rest was just terrible tackling, or lack thereof.

--you can certainly compare the Offensive potential (note the word potential) once we (hypothetically speaking) acquire CJ. however, that's where the comparisons between the teams ends. these are the main reasons:

1) our Defense, while it was bad last year, was astounding the two years prior. we kept most pieces of that Defense together, so why did we do so poorly last year? well, for starters...we didn't have many. we had an injury plagued season...it happens, it was just unfortunate that last year it was us that caught the injury bug. just ask the Eagles how it feels.

I'll take the two years vs. the 1 as the more likely position for our Defensive performance heading into next year. that being said, let's be pessimistic for a minute & say, for argument's sake, that we'll take the median from the 3 seasons as a gauge for next season. that still places us at best around 12-13th in the league, or at worst 16-17th overall Defense. that alone would dictate then, that we would still be at best 16-17 spots better or worst 12-13 spots better than either of those two aforementioned teams.

what's more is, if you take that median as a gauge & still go with the worst-case scenario shown above where we are only 12-13 spots better Defensively than either two teams I gaurantee that adding CJ would, hypothetically of course, improve our Defense another 2-4 slots (possibly more) based on Offensive ball control alone. also...converting a few more times on 3rd downs & converting a few more times for TD's instead of FG's or no points at all will further place pressure in terms of field position & scoreboard for the opposition, usually resulting in less patience for the run game.

2) you might say that the Chiefs were a closer comparison (barring Defensive inefficiency) based on their ability to run the football, however they did two things differently that I don't believe we will be doing here in D.C. one is they run a quick-huddle Offense. it's not quite no-huddle, but they get in & out of the huddle very quickly so they can work with more clock for audibles & keep the Defense from getting comfortable. two, the Chiefs & the Rams teams that are in debate here were very non-chilant about protecting the football. they would flaunder away numerous opportunities at scoring or ball possession in order to give the long ball that 'ol college try. they threw alot of INT's those teams did & while JC will make mistakes, he & Joe Gibbs, they will be far more concerned with protecting the footbal.

less turnovers means more rest for the defense.

I'm not saying CJ is the be all, end all. I've said on many occassions I wouldn't be mad whichever way they decide so long as it's Safety, D-line, or CJ. if you want to make a proper comparison, though, to how this might play out. your best comparison would likely be the '99 Rams or '98 Vikings where both Defenses weren't great. but they were made to look much better because of the pressure their Offenses ability to put incredible pressure on the other team's gameplan/play-calling ability. once they got an early lead the Defense was able to "pin their ears back" & attack which lead to more turnovers, which lead to more points which lead to more pressure...this is where countless teams just gave up on the run almost completely against them & greatly skewed their run Defense numbers for those years.

you see how it affected both teams in the years after, heck Minnesota lost to Atlanta because they couldn't stop Jamal Anderson.

in the end. I would love to get CJ. don't believe it will happen though & so long as we don't blow up our draft for no good reason, I'm pretty certain that our FO will do what's in our best interest with whatever it's forced to deal with.

Here's a little something you may have overlooked while putting our defense in the top half of the league again next year. Griffin played in 14 games and Salave'a played in 13. Daniels played in all 16. Yet, we gave up 30 TD's thru the air (that's most in the league)and produced only 19 sacks(fewest in the league). You can't blame our crap pass D totally on injury. Our blitzes were being picked up and our defense has lost it's ability to suprise the opposing offense. Most of our pressure the first two years came from LB's and secondary. I mean Shaun Springs lead our team in sacks in 04 for crying out loud.

How do you overcome the fact that we can't catch our opposition with their pants down anymore? With talent. I look at that line and the only two that I like even when they're 100% healthy are Carter and Griffin. The other two need to be replaced. Golston is nice, but he's not a starter. You get me talent on that front line and the pressure they create opens up a lot more opportunities for the talented secondary we have to stop the pass.

Here's something else. With Brunell at the helm of our offense we scored an average of 17.6 points per game. With Campbell coming in as a rookie (in principal), we scored an average of 20.3 points. Now while 20.3 isn't anything to write home about, it is a good start for someone who came in half way thru the season and had little to no work with our starting unit. Also, Portis will be back. Now while Betts was pretty good in relief duty, he's still no Portis. I think our offense has the potential to be really good next season.

CJ or no.

That's not something I can say about our defense. It needs to be addressed and there's no time like the present to start bringing up some homegrown talent on that line.

[SkinsManNJ]

I understand the hype surrounding Calvin Johnson, he is a great prospect and deserves to be drafted very high, but a close to home word of caution about this type of talk.

Similar things about being a once in a lifetime type prospect were being said about Sean Taylor when he came out a few years ago. I think Taylor is a very good player, but look around the league at young players like Polamalu, Bob Sanders, Ed Reed etc and its hard to say he was really a once in a lifetime type player.

Taylor still is that once in a life time. Polamalu is just a good cover guy, Reed knows how to find the ball he came out before Taylor, Sanders he is a good all around player but none match up to Taylors stature. You could have said Roy Williams but Taylor is better than him. Roy only matches ST in height.

Siven-- was Vernon Davis touted as high or higher than Kellen Winslow, Jeremy Shockey? Compared to great players in the game such as Tony Gonzalez, or Antonio Gates? CJ is a once in a lifetime. Who compares to him in recent past or even the last 20 years?

[The Sir]

wasnt reggie bush once in a lifetime talent to come out?

CJ is nothing compared to what bush was in college.

Talentwise, he is, easily