Church-state 'wall' coming back down?

[headexplode]

No, YOU are just a Man. Thomas Jefferson was a President, a founding father, and the author of the Declaration of Independance. Also, the fact that you put slaves in the plural shows you really don't know what you are talking about nor do you understand the context.

I'm sorry--he wound down by getting it on with one of his slaves. The others he just had them do their normal slave type stuff. He was thinking about trying to set 'em free and all, but, you know, presidential duties, stuff.

And if he's not just a man then tell me this mr smarty pants--why is he so effing dead?

My main point was, and remains, that the argument over the church and state wall doesn't begin and end with Thomas Jefferson AND that he WAS, in fact, just a man, fallible and contradictory and wholly effing HUMAN. And in two or three thousand years no one will ever have heard of Thomas Jefferson.

So go ahead and get smart again, friend, but maybe you should try thinking for yourself for once instead of drooling over what some dead ahole said hundreds of years ago. There is a reason the Constitution is amendable.

But I don't know the context--I have no idea what I'm talking about. I know that he wrote the Declaration of Independence which talks about the inalienable rights of all men, everyone is created equal, yet he owned slaves and probably had a relationship with at least one of them and also wasn't that concerned about the slaughter of innocent natives who had been here for hundreds of years before he ever read Plato. I know that everyone with a pet cause grabs random quotes from him to support their viewpoint, yet you can't claim, no matter how much historical documentation you may have read, what the man was really like and what he felt about issues facing us in the twenty-first century. Go ahead, though, and please drop some more history on me--because even I've read a book or two.

[Popeman38]

Actually Christmas tree has been a part of Christmas for exactly as long as Christmas has been a Christian holiday. Facts are that when Constantine the Great a follower of Mithras first legalized Christianity into the Roman empire, to help shore up the Roman empire, He moved the date of Christ's Birth to coincide with a Roman holiday of Mithral. The Mithral tree was a Roman custom. Constantine as all Romans liked the Roman holidays so they just changed the names and kept the customs.

I don't disagree that it has been part of Christmas. But that does not make it a Christian symbol. I mean, you could stretch these interpretation to mean that witches represent the Wiccans and are therefore not allowed to be displayed on Halloween, as well as jack-o-lanterns. These are all symbols, but not representative of a religion.

Just because the Christian high holiday prior to Constantine was Easter and not Christmas/Mithral the Roman High Holiday doesn't mean that Christmas isn't today a Christian holiday. Just because a Christmas tree started out as a pagan Mithral tree, doesn't mean that today the Christmas tree symbol isn't a Christian symbol. All religous symbols had origins prior to the meanings we know today. Even the cross which is totally seen as a Christian symbol had a meaning in pagan Rome prior to the death of Christ.

I think my response above deals with this also. I don't claim Christmas is not a Christian holiday, but it has been ****ized into a commercial holiday, Hence why it is ok to display Santa Clause.

The very definition of what it is to be a Christian, according to 95% of those who practice the faith, contained in the "Nicene Creed" did not come about until 3-400 years after Christ died. That doesn't make the Creed any less definitive to the 95% of Christians who subscribe to it.

Good history lesson, but hwere is the tree?

The Nazi Swastika was a Jewish symbol from ancient times. Not to many folks misinterpreted the meaning today however... Symbols do take on new meanings and symbols do change.

I know they do. But the tree has not. Ask a kid what the Christmas tree stands for. I guarentee that none are going to say it represents Jesus' birth.

Literally he did. Literally Jefferson did not believe in a Christian God but more of a Spinoza type nature god. Jefferson quite literally did not believe religion belonged in the purview of the government. Not because he wanted a godless country. Rather Jefferson though by removing the government from the religion business, people would be closer to god (when they were *my edit for clarity of response*) free to worship as they individually saw fit.

If he really did, why was the seperation written as freedom of instead of freedom from? There is an undeniable difference in the two. I am not proporting that the gov declare itself Christian. But allowing religious symbols on public property I believe is allowed. As long as other religions are granted permission to display there beliefs also, although I believe they should be in seperate locals.

Jefferson certainly wanted to keep the government out of the religion business.. He was the architect of the freedom of religion clause in both the Virginia constitution and the Bill of Rights. Literally keeping the government out of the religion business ensuring all citizens the right to worship as they see fit. Which was a great concern for all Americans. America might not have been founded in order to establish freedom of religion. But it was founded by religious refugees from across Europe who all disagreed about religion. They didn't want their strong religious beliefs to separate them as Americans. That's why they made the first article in the first amendment to the pre-amble of the constitution ensuring that the "Government passed no laws respecting the establishment of a religion".

We agree!

Absolutely they can. On private land, on their own dime. Just can't do it on public property on the public dime. There is a difference between offending people and it being illegal.

Come on, you know it has gotten to the point where a business can not place anything that might offend an employee up. The employees are even restricted in what they place in their cubes.

[rincewind]

I'm sorry--he wound down by getting it on with one of his slaves. The others he just had them do their normal slave type stuff. He was thinking about trying to set 'em free and all, but, you know, presidential duties, stuff.

And if he's not just a man then tell me this mr smarty pants--why is he so effing dead?

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Like him or not. Agree with him or not. headexplode is one funny dude.

[Midnight Judges]

I'm sorry--he wound down by getting it on with one of his slaves. The others he just had them do their normal slave type stuff. He was thinking about trying to set 'em free and all, but, you know, presidential duties, stuff.

And if he's not just a man then tell me this mr smarty pants--why is he so effing dead?

My main point was, and remains, that the argument over the church and state wall doesn't begin and end with Thomas Jefferson AND that he WAS, in fact, just a man, fallible and contradictory and wholly effing HUMAN. And in two or three thousand years no one will ever have heard of Thomas Jefferson.

So go ahead and get smart again, friend, but maybe you should try thinking for yourself for once instead of drooling over what some dead ahole said hundreds of years ago. There is a reason the Constitution is amendable.

But I don't know the context--I have no idea what I'm talking about. I know that he wrote the Declaration of Independence which talks about the inalienable rights of all men, everyone is created equal, yet he owned slaves and probably had a relationship with at least one of them and also wasn't that concerned about the slaughter of innocent natives who had been here for hundreds of years before he ever read Plato. I know that everyone with a pet cause grabs random quotes from him to support their viewpoint, yet you can't claim, no matter how much historical documentation you may have read, what the man was really like and what he felt about issues facing us in the twenty-first century. Go ahead, though, and please drop some more history on me--because even I've read a book or two.

You got your facts wrong, you got called on it, and now you're pissed. Perfectly understandable. Keep reading. Someday you might even understand that you can't blame one man for the hypocrisies of an entire country.

[TMK9973]

ICome on, you know it has gotten to the point where a business can not place anything that might offend an employee up. The employees are even restricted in what they place in their cubes..

Seriously - Are you actually saying in the same post that Christmas has become TOO commercialized as well as private business are not allowed to display Christmas stuff? Do you not see how they can not both be true? The malls, all the stores, everything in December (Now even November) is all decked out with a TON of Christmas stuff. Almost every private business in the world has stuff they put up, which leads some to believe that it has become over commercialized.

[JMS]

JMS - GREAT post. I am stiull speachless of the number of people that argue a Christmas tree has nothing to do with Christmas. Give me a break.

I don't care how it got started, it is now a christmas tree. Mind you, I'm not against putting them up in public places, as long as the publice place is open to other religious holiday symbols as well.

However - One small correction. the swastika is a acient symbol used by many religions and cultures before the Nazi's hijacked it. However -Judism was not one of them. But the point is the same

http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm

You very well might be correct. I'm not a phd in symbology, although I work with several. I have read that it was a jewish symbol, however I've never seen it at the local JCC.

The Gnostika, or Shield of David: a Jewish symbol for the new millenium. A million Jews represented by each of the outer six segments; a rotating swastika-scythe; the inner hexagon of the Star of David; white and black (life and death); an abstract menorah in the form of two sets of three candles on either side of a central,

http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Holocaust/holy.htm

There's a jpg but I can't link to it..

Check that... that article I posted seems to be a modern adoption of the swastika by devote modern jews...

The links which I find by googling swastika and "jewish symbol" refference the swastika as an inverted deformed star of david...

No crediable links identifying it as a Jewish Ancient Symbol...

[Popeman38]

Seriously - Are you actually saying in the same post that Christmas has become TOO commercialized as well as private business are not allowed to display Christmas stuff? Do you not see how they can not both be true? The malls, all the stores, everything in December (Now even November) is all decked out with a TON of Christmas stuff. Almost every private business in the world has stuff they put up, which leads some to believe that it has become over commercialized.

No, I am saying that in business nowadays, you can only put up non-religious Christmas symbols. You know, like the tree, Santa Clause, Frosty.

[TMK9973]

That was a intresting article JMS, but below is the picture. Not sure how close that is to a swatzika. But once again, your point is valid

*Edit* - the Can't post the pic - But most can see it.

[rincewind]

No, I am saying that in business nowadays, you can only put up non-religious Christmas symbols. You know, like the tree, Santa Clause, Frosty.

Santa Claus = St. Nick. That would make him religious... if you're willing to go back far enough.

[headexplode]

You got your facts wrong, you got called on it, and now you're pissed. Perfectly understandable. Keep reading. Someday you might even understand that you can't blame one man for the hypocrisies of an entire country.

I didn't get my facts wrong. I got a fact wrong. And I didn't get it wrong I wrote it that way for stylistic reasons. Sorry. I'm an artist, see and I try not to let myself get bogged down with facts. And I'm not pissed because you called me out I'm pissed because you said I had no idea what I was talking about, which is untrue. I do have some idea of what I'm talking about. It may not be a full idea but it's pretty darn close.

I didn't blame one man for the hypocrisies of an entire nation, I simply pointed out that he was fallible just like everybody else. Does it wipe out all the good he did? No, it doesn't. Am I sometimes overly abrasive and let a joke get in the way of saying something actually meaningful? Yes, you got me. But every hero I had as a child, from Christopher Columbus to George Washington to Jefferson and Lincoln to even the image of the American Cowboy had a darker, more sinister side than was originally portrayed. All my heroes are dead, and they all had slaves. And I have to laugh at that--I have to joke about that because it's just too much.

[Henry]

A Christmas Tree is symbol of a Christian Holiday. I can't believe the lengths some of you are going to dance around that fact.

Christmas is Christian. Symbols of Christmas are Christian.

That's why Christians celebrate Christmas and non-Christians don't.

That's why Christians have Christmas trees and non-Christians don't. No I never had a tree in my house, and no, noone in my family has one (not the Jewish side), and noone I ever knew from temple ever did either.

If you want Christmas trees adorning the county courthouse I'm fine with that. I really am. But don't go about justifying why it's there by claiming it's not Christian. It's a Christian thing. It's for a Christian holiday. To suggest otherwise is an insult to the intelligence of everyone on this board. Seriously.

JMS, I think the swastika was orignially an Indian Symbol of some kind. Not sure though. But it's not Jewish.

[SnyderShrugged]

A Christmas Tree is symbol of a Christian Holiday. I can't believe the lengths some of you are going to dance around that fact.

Christmas is Christian. Symbols of Christmas are Christian.

That's why Christians celebrate Christmas and non-Christians don't.

That's why Christians have Christmas trees and non-Christians don't. No I never had a tree in my house, and no, noone in my family has one (not the Jewish side), and noone I ever knew from temple ever did either.

If you want Christmas trees adorning the county courthouse I'm fine with that. I really am. But don't go about justifying why it's there by claiming it's not Christian. It's a Christian thing. It's for a Christian holiday. To suggest otherwise is an insult to the intelligence of everyone on this board. Seriously.

JMS, I think the swastika was orignially an Indian Symbol of some kind. Not sure though. But it's not Jewish.

ummmm, wrong

this explains why

http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm

[JMS]

ummmm, wrong

this explains why

http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm

Because the Pilgrams didn't use them? Dude.. the first hint that CHRIST-mas trees are a CHRIST-ian symbol should be rather intuitive and obvious.

It doesn't matter how many Christian sects don't believe in them. Or even think they're un Christian. The fact that SOME Christian sects are fighting so hard and SO counter intuitively should be your second very flagrant hint that CHRIST-mas tree's or x-Mas trees are in fact a culterally endorsed although historically flawed celibration of the birth of CHRIST. Who himself being jewish doesn't detract that he's been drafted as the head of the new religion bareing his name.

We aren't even discussing here Easter Eggs and how Christians have been hoodwinked into the association of eggs, rabbits and the reserection of Christ.

Back to the Pilgrams...Pilgrams thought it was unChristian to wear laces for petes sake. Pilgrams are not representative of Christian culture either in the 1500's or today. That's why they got kicked out of Europe.

Now if you wish to choose a different species of plant, or perhaps a nice shrubbery. Then you can make the case that a Creeping Verigated Euronomous is not a Christian symbol, I'm all ears. But as long as we're talking pines in November-December, I think culterally you don't have a leg to stand on.

Go for the Euronomous in May.. they look very nice with tinsle.

[Sarge]

JMS, I think the swastika was orignially an Indian Symbol of some kind. Not sure though. But it's not Jewish.

It's Hindu

[Henry]

ummmm, wrong

this explains why

http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm

I don't really care about the origins. Today Christians use Christmas trees to celebrate Christmas. That makes them a Christian thing.

[SnyderShrugged]

I don't really care about the origins. Today Christians use Christmas trees to celebrate Christmas. That makes them a Christian thing.

I know many Christians who dont have a tree. Just because you something is so,m does not make it true. I provided just one of many sources of information that indicates specifically that the Christmas Tree is now considered sucular (even if many Christians also use one).

The point is, The Tree istself does not represent Christianity, but many Christians still follow the secular tradition of the tree.

This isnt rocket science. Most Atheists I know put a Christmas tree up along with the Christians, Wiccans, and yes, even some Jews. Again, I have personally seen trees in their homes.

[SnyderShrugged]

and more. (this is a good read, btw) A nice mix of secular and religous tree stories

http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/legend01/xmastree.htm

The Christmas tree is a symbol of immortality, resiliency, longevity, and rebirth. Taoists once believed that if a pine's resin was allowed to flow down its trunk and onto the earth, a fu-lin or mushroom of immortality would grow from it in 1000 years. Eating the fu-lin would give a person eternal youth.

Growing tall as it weathers the hardships of wind, snow, and rain, the pine tree in the forest symbolizes long-suffering, steadfast friendships, and enduring fame. The pine's strength in the face of adversity makes it symbolic of those who have become strong through suffering, or who have kept to their beliefs and promises in spite of opposition. In Scandinavia, a myth of enduring love surrounds a certain pine. It is said that this tree grew from the blood of two lovers who had been wrongfully executed in the forest. During the Christmas season, strange lights can be seen shining in its branches as a testimony of their innocence and love.

One Christmas Eve in 8th century Germany, the missionary, St. Boniface, gathered newly baptized Christians together to renounce paganism by cutting down the sacred oak they once sacrificed under. As it fell, the oak split into four pieces revealing a young pine growing in its center. Boniface suggested that the people take this pine as a symbol of their new-found Christian faith because it's shape points toward Heaven, and it's evergreen foliage reminds us of eternal life.

In Rome, the immortal pine was used to celebrate the spring festival of Arbor intrat. Each year on March 22, members of the cult of Cybele cut down a pine tree and carried it to the Palatine temple. There, it was bandaged, wreathed with violets, and mourned as if it were the body of Attis, son of Cybele, who, disturbed by his mother's attentions, had castrated himself and died beneath a pine tree. His soul was believed to have found refuge in the pine and his blood caused violets to spring up around it. Three days later, he was miraculously restored to life. Egyptians, on the other hand, used the palm tree as an image of resurrection and decorated their homes with its branches during the winter solstice.

The vertical symbolism of the pine tree was emphasized by Christians. This tree, which forever pointed heavenward, was a reminder to seek out heavenly rather than earthly treasures. It was a symbol of the saints, their self-denial, and their patience. A meet Christmas symbol, the tree was also a symbol of communication and mediation between heaven and earth because it's roots reached into the earth and its branches soared into the heavens.

Today, one can still see the Jesse-tree. Most popular during the 13th century, this nativity tree was decorated to look like the family tree of the Christ Child. Adam and Eve are displayed at the foot of the tree and Jesus rests at its top. The wicked serpent is entwined around its trunk. This tradition may have come from the Messianic prophecy: "There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots" (Is 11:1).

The Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge from the Garden of Eden were blended together in many customs and legends about the fir tree. Adam and Eve Day was celebrated on December 24th. During the Middle Ages it was customary to perform Paradise Plays on the Church grounds on this holiday. A single fir tree strung with apples was used to symbolize both of the garden's trees.

Legend states that the fir is the Tree of Life. When it was created, it had flowers, leaves, and fruit like other trees, but when Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, these shrunk into the needles and cones we see it bear today. The fir did, however, blossom briefly on the night of Christ's birth. It also bears the name "Tree of Life" because it is believed to have been the tree upon which Christ died.

French and German legend calls the Christmas tree the "Tree of Humanity." One Christmas Eve, Bonchevalier found a pine tree lit up with candles and having a star at its top. Some of the candles stood upright, while others hung upside down. His mother told Bonchevalier that this was the "Tree of Humanity." The upright candles represented good people, while the inverted candles stood for evil people. The star at the top was the Christ Child watching over the entire world. Such a tree reminds us to be like our Father in Heaven who sends the sun and rain to nourish both the righteous and the unrighteous (Mt 5:45-46).

Jacob Riis records that Christ sent Faith, Hope, and Love to choose the first Viking Christmas tree. They chose the Balsam fir for this honor because it was as wide as God's love, as high as the Christian's hope, and it bore the shape of the cross on every branch. The pine is one of the trees God planted in the desert to give shade to the thirsty; to prove His power over the elements; and to show His care for the needy (Is 41:17-20).

When the Holy Family was running from Herod's soldiers, a hollow old pine tree hid the exhausted family in its trunk for a night. In the morning, the Christ Child blessed the pine with His little hands. Because of this, it is said that by cutting a pine cone lengthwise, we can see the prints of the Holy Infant's hands to this day.

During the New Year holiday, the Japanese place a pine tree on each side of the entrance to their homes as shelters for the kami which they believe will bestow blessings upon their household. Perhaps these blessings include fertility, and the marital love and fidelity symbolized by pine trees in many cultures.

According to Virgil, early Romans decorated pine trees with little masks of Bacchus (a fertility god). As the wind blew these trinkets around, Bacchus was believed to grant fertility to every part of the tree the masks faced. During their midwinter festivals, Romans also decorated with evergreens to shelter woodland fairies and gave small trees to their friends as New Year's gifts. Their Mithraic "Tree of Life" was a pine in which birds and creatures symbolic of the souls of the dead or unborn lived.

Other ancient tree trimming customs include the Chinese sacred trees which were draped with red banners bearing prayers of thanksgiving and praise. European Druids decorated oaks and pines with apples, candles, and cakes in the form of various animals and birds as a thank offering to their gods of fertility, agriculture, and light. Greeks and Romans decorated the trees sacred to their gods and goddesses with garlands of flowers and cloth. In Finland, Lapps filled little boats with bits of food and placed them in a pine tree marked with sacred symbols. Then they killed a reindeer and placed its internal organs in another tree which they smeared with the animal's blood.

Christian legend states that on the night of Christ's birth, in spite of snow and ice, all the trees of the earth blossomed for joy, and bore fruit. In addition, all earth's rivers ran happily with wine. In honor of this legend, Austrians brought boughs of cherry, hawthorn, and pear trees into their homes at the beginning of December and placed them in jars of water so they might blossom in time for Christmas.

Another popular story claims that one stormy Christmas Eve, a forester and his family heard a knock at the door of their cottage. Opening the door, they discovered a little child whom they fed and bedded down in spite of their poverty. In the morning the sound of an angelic choir awakened them. Their visitor was the Christ Child! As a reward for their hospitality, He tore a branch from a nearby fir and planted it in the ground. Immediately, it grew and was covered with fruit, nuts, gold, and lights. The Christ Child promised this tree would forever provide for the forester's family in winter.

The setting for the Cherry Tree Carol is a garden where Joseph is beset with doubts about Mary's pregnancy. When Mary asks Joseph to pick her some cherries, he angrily replies, "Let him pluck thee a cherry, that brought thee with child." Whereupon, the unborn Christ commands, "Bow down then the tallest tree, for my mother to have some."

At midnight on Christmas Eve, all earth's trees are said to bow in homage to the Holy Infant. This created a problem for one young rider who had tied his ass to a prostrate tree. In the morning, he discovered the poor ass had been hung when the tree finished worshipping and resumed its upright position.

Some people believe Luther invented the Christmas tree to show his young children the beauty of the forest and the night sky. However, since the earliest verifiable reference to a Christmas tree appears almost 60 years after his death, this origin is largely discounted.

The Christmas tree as we know it began to be seen in the 16th century, and was not popular outside of Germany until the 19th century. At first, trees were only about two feet tall and were set out on tables. Most decorations were pretty candies, cookies, fruits, and other items meant to be admired and eaten by guests. These trees were sometimes called "sugar trees." Later paper ornaments became popular. Finally, in the late 1800's, glass ornaments and electric lights made their debut. Tall trees did not become popular until the Christmas tree came to America - a direct result of this country's abundant natural resources.

[Henry]

I know many Christians who dont have a tree. Just because you something is so,m does not make it true. I provided just one of many sources of information that indicates specifically that the Christmas Tree is now considered sucular (even if many Christians also use one).

I know lots of Jews who don't keep kosher. That doesn't mean it's now a secular practice.

The point is, The Tree istself does not represent Christianity, but many Christians still follow the secular tradition of the tree.

This isnt rocket science. Most Atheists I know put a Christmas tree up along with the Christians, Wiccans, and yes, even some Jews. Again, I have personally seen trees in their homes.

I'm sure that there aren't any Churches with images of Christmas trees adorning their walls. And I'm sure there are many other uses for fir trees throughout the world. However, as an element of a Christian holiday, the Christmas tree is a part of Christian culture in this country. I agree. Simple logic is not rocket science.

[SnyderShrugged]

I know lots of Jews who don't keep kosher. That doesn't mean it's now a secular practice.

I'm sure that there aren't any Churches with images of Christmas trees adorning their walls. And I'm sure there are many other uses for fir trees throughout the world. However, as an element of a Christian holiday, the Christmas tree is a part of Christian culture in this country. I agree. Simple logic is not rocket science.

hey, believe whatever makes you happy despite evidence to the contrary.

not a biggie here

[TMK9973]

Well - I'll tell you where it's a biggie...

Where this got started. If your going to put up a Christmas tree in my sons public school in Decemeber, have the kids decrate it, and then tell him he's not allowed to bring in a menorah to have his holiday repersented after he asked - Then yes... I'm going to raise a fit. Which I did.

You can spit in my face all you want and tell me you are offering me a drink, but common sense will tell you that the school was promoting christmas and excluding other religious holidays.

[twa]

Well - I'll tell you where it's a biggie...

Where this got started. If your going to put up a Christmas tree in my sons public school in Decemeber, have the kids decrate it, and then tell him he's not allowed to bring in a menorah to have his holiday repersented after he asked - Then yes... I'm going to raise a fit. Which I did.

You can spit in my face all you want and tell me you are offering me a drink, but common sense will tell you that the school was promoting christmas and excluding other religious holidays.

I would agree that is wrong and I would support you.

On the christmas tree note though ,I have never associated it with Christianity and in fact there are constant criticism of it's pagan roots every year.

Not that that stops my wife from insisting on one,along with the elves and frosty and the damn reindeer ect,ect ect

[JMS]

I would agree that is wrong and I would support you.

On the christmas tree note though ,I have never associated it with Christianity and in fact there are constant criticism of it's pagan roots every year.

Not that that stops my wife from insisting on one,along with the elves and frosty and the damn reindeer ect,ect ect

Let's face it ever since the pagans sacked Rome post Constantine. The various Pagan cultures who have controlled the city have been very influential in Christianity. Everything from kneeling, incense, to the outfits priests wear were all pagan "contributions". The different protestant schisms which occurred during the Reformation never tried to purge these influences they purged the more benign abuses which had sprung up.

If you want the purist early "Christian" experience you'd be going to the eastern Orthodox church which split from Rome prior to all these Pagan "contributions". That means big square hats, beards, and icons of the Saints.

All the Johnny come lately born again communities or "evangelicals" are no truer to the early pre Roman dominated church than anybody else. The Christian Christmas tree is a very small example of pagan seepage into Christianity.

[chomerics]

My GOD, why are the Christians going to lengths to say the Christmas tree is not a religious symbol, when EVERYONE knows it is???

I will tell you why, it is an underhanded way of planting their religion into society and claiming they are keeping on the side not promoting their religion. It is a joke, transparent and anyone with a few neurons connected in gray matter can see the ruse. I can not believe the lengths people go to try and talk away things which are so blatantly true.

Again, ask a Jewish person if they have a Christmas tree in their home, they will say no. Ask a Hindu, they will say no. Ask a Muslim, same answer. The only people who celebrate Christmas are people of Christian origin. It is not that hard to figure out! Henry is spot on, and the only people saying the tree is not Christian are Christians themselves.

With that being said, JMS had the post of this thread a while back, and he answered a LOT of the questions people have. There should be no sponsoring of Christian symbols on public property, and if there is, then other religious symbols should be on display.

This includes schools, courthouses, town halls and everything else. It is written in the Constitution and the establishment clause, and people need to smarten the **** up!

Just because you are in a majority does not give you the right to profuse your beliefs unto others. Religion is a belief that should be held in private, not in a public square. That is what our country was founded on, and the nutjobs that want to plaster their symbols everywhere should just :stfu:

:rant:

[twa]

JMS I agree for the most part, but I feel there are churches that have,and continue to teach the gospel as delivered by Jesus...though they fail at times

http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0172.htm

http://users.aol.com/libcfl/chart.htm

[JMS]

JMS I agree for the most part, but I feel there are churches that have,and continue to teach the gospel as delivered by Jesus...though they fail at times

http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0172.htm

http://users.aol.com/libcfl/chart.htm

I don't know that much about the Baptist church except my wife’s favorite saying.. "they don't hold them under long enough". bu dum dum... Seriously though

Baptists are not Protestants since they did not come out of the Catholic Church.

Do the Baptists not subscribe to the Nicene Creed? If not that would be some evidence that they were in fact one of the early Christian groups, although not documented.

Nicene Creed is written as a laundry list of beliefs.. we believe in Jesus Christ who suffered.......

It's because every line in the Creed excluded one group of early Christians.

Back in the day.. 400 AD ish... Constantine the Great was ruling over an empire that was decaying from within. Everybody was out for themselves. Constantine looked at the Christians going to their deaths singing in the arena and said.. Give me a legion of those guys and I can unify and fix this empire. I need guys with that grit. Only before Christianity could shore up the empire, Constantine a pagan; had to shore up Christianity.

The early Christians were an underground group. They were loosely organized by city. Thus each city had it's own head which set policy for that church. Constantine called the first church council where all these guys got together and he wrote out the definition of what it was to be Christian. The Nicene Creed. Nicene being a suburb of Constantinople, Constantine’s capital. Hey if you're going to call a meeting make it close to home...

So every line in the creed basically defines one of the early Heretical groups. Everybody agreed to the creed and those that didn't were hunted down a killed.

The Arians for example which Adolph H. admired so much. were one of the original heretic groups. ( They believed. that God had an existence prior to that of his Son( Christ )... "Begotten not Made" conflicts with their belief..

So they had to die.. Those who weren't caught and killed fled to the fringes of the empire.. like Germany..