Redskins Coaches who Deserve the Ax

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

how exactly does anyone outside of Redskin Park know who deserves to be fired?

seriously?

In your worldview, this board should clearly not exist...yet you have 50,000 posts.

[skins4eva]

to discuss something you have to have a little knowledge of the situation.

So again how do you know which coach is doing his job, and which one is not?

how do you know if a player is failing because of coaching, or because of his own ineptness?

I mean you are asking for someone to lose their job, so don't you think that maybe just maybe you should have a little knowledge of the situation before calling for his dismissal

there is a huge difference in speculating if a coach is having an impact or at fault, than actually determining he should be fired

Why? What's the distinction? If I were actually making the hiring/firing decisions, I would agree with your point. But, since I am a fan and all of what we discuss on this board is general speculation, I don't need to make that distinction. Therefore, I can and will voice my opinion of who should be fired or replaced. Obviously people will agree and disagree-that's the whole point: it's a debate/discussion.

[Cherokee]

I've just one thing to say. Ladainian Tomlinson is having a Hall of Fame year. Is it because of coaching? I doubt it. Is Schottenheimer a genius? Not exactly. But, he does run the ball a lot. We need key players who will show up and fire it up every game. Just like LT.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Marshall is an average player. He's also, like you said, an outside linebacker, not a MLB.

Whoever decided to move Marshall to MLB and leave him there did him - as well as the team - a disservice.

I think the problems on this team are fundamentally coaching because they are asking the players to do things they simply cannot do very well.

Holdman is not a quality OLB. The fact that he is failing as an OLB is not his fault. It's like asking me to be a chef in a five star restaurant. I can't do it. Is it my fault if I fail.

Marshall is too small to play MLB. Yet he is an MLB.

Archuletta cannot cover. Yet he is asked to cover.

Taylor's strengths are not as a one-on-one cover guy. Yet, he's spent most of the year in one-on-one coverage.

Carter is probably too small to be a consistent run-stopping D-end. Yet, he plays every down at D-end.

It's madness. We have all these square pegs in round holes on D.

[skins4eva]

ah yes basically the generic you're a homer, stupid response

again I ask you, how do you know if it is the coaches or the players? You imply you have knowledge of the situation in your list

so educate us, explain how anyone of the coaches you listed is screwing up... how is he failing, and what proof do you have of this

and please spare us the we are 4-9 response

Why should I spare us the 4-9 response? That happens to be an exceedingly strong argument that the coaching staff is not doing its job--perhaps the strongest argument. Yet, you would seemingly dismiss it--why?

Offensively, I do not believe that Burns and Breaux add anything to the equation. If Saunders is the Offensive coordinator, he should have the ability to select most of the offensive coaches.

I've outlined various reasons why I think certain coaches should be accountable. Ultimately, this is on Gibbs, Saunders and Williams, but since are here next year, I think it's realistic to assume that some of their underlings won't be.

[Isifhan]

Well--that may be true to some extent. But, he obviously didn't think that highly of him.

Why? Because the F.O. let him get away? That has nothing to do with Dale Lindsay. How do you know Lindsay wasn't fighting tooth and nail to keep him? I don't, neither do you, like Bubba said unless you are privy to those conversations no one does. Marshall looked very good last year as well and seemed to step in for Pierce without missing a beat. People want to crucify the coaching staff when players have an off year, perhaps due to a number of things such as injury (ala shoulder with Marshall). Look at Walt Harris, he had a bad year last year but was solid prior to that, but as fans we wanted him gone. Now the dude is making a play for defensive player of the year.

Bring in depth to compete for the job, or if there is a better prospect out there go get him but I certainly don't think Lindsay forgot how to identify talent in one year, just like I don't think GW forgot how to be a coach after he got us to #3 and #9 two two years ago.

[KingGibbs]

Why? What's the distinction? If I were actually making the hiring/firing decisions, I would agree with your point. But, since I am a fan and all of what we discuss on this board is general speculation, I don't need to make that distinction. Therefore, I can and will voice my opinion of who should be fired or replaced. Obviously people will agree and disagree-that's the whole point: it's a debate/discussion.

I agree with you 100%.

[skins4eva]

I've just one thing to say. Ladainian Tomlinson is having a Hall of Fame year. Is it because of coaching? I doubt it. Is Schottenheimer a genius? Not exactly. But, he does run the ball a lot. We need key players who will show up and fire it up every game. Just like LT.

I agree to a large extent. Players trump scheme in almost every instance. You see it more in college football than in the NFL, but it holds true in the NFL as well. You cannot plug major positions with second and third tier players and expect results--I don't care what the scheme is.

[bubba9497]

:doh: You're right Bubba, childish sarcasms are your provence. I apoligize. Carry on. You have no rebuttal at all, except to tell me I don't know what I'm taking about. I guess you do? Instead of adding anything constructive to the thread, you go around criticizing anything that doesn't tow the party line. Go hijack another thread with your nonsense.

:cry: poor baby

Did I pretend to say I know anything about what goes on at Redskin park?... I believe that was my Rebuttal... and a very clear one

So again I ask you, since you are the one calling for coaches dismissals...

educate me on how you know who is doing their job and who is not, and what are failures on the field are the fault of coaching or the fault of the player?

Is it Lazors fault that Campbell threw two Int, that resulted in an 14 points for the eagles?

4-9 sucks, and there is much to complain about, but calling for someones job, even on a message board is extreme (no pun) and deserves a little more insight into what's going on than that which you have displayed

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Bubba, we do - sorta - know what goes on at Redskins Park because - you know - there are articles and stuff out there that gives us some insight. I believe there was a Tom Friend piece a while back that a few folks read.

And we certainly know what occurs on the field. Why? Because we have eyes.

You - to a large degree - and Om - to a smaller degree - love to push this idea that pro football is quantum physics and that we lay people shall never understand it's mysteries. Discussing football is not figuring out fusion. Heck, it's not even discussing the mysteries of the Church of Rome.

We know that the secondary is ridiculousy bad. And we suspect that the two secondary coaches are hated by their players. So...there you go.

I would love to deal with you in business.

Me: My order is ten days late. Is there something wrong with your inventory?

Bubba: You don't know what goes on in my factory so you can't ask me that.

Me: Well, you know, I ordered something and it's not here. And since you run the factory, I'm asking you...

Bubba: You think it's my fault, huh? I guess you never heard of employees who call in sick?

Me: Well...yea...but, you know, I still want my order.

Bubba: Your order is fine. Stop asking about it.

[skins4eva]

:cry: poor baby

Did I pretend to say I know anything about what goes on at Redskin park?... I believe that was my Rebuttal... and a very clear one

So again I ask you, since you are the one calling for coaches dismissals...

educate me on how you know who is doing their job and who is not, and what are failures on the field are the fault of coaching or the fault of the player?

Is it Lazors fault that Campbell threw two Int, that resulted in an 14 points for the eagles?

4-9 sucks, and there is much to complain about, but calling for someones job, even on a message board is extreme (no pun) and deserves a little more insight into what's going on than that which you have displayed

I disagree. No, it doesn't. This thread represents my "opinion" of coaches who don't deserve to be back. Failures on the field are always the fault of both player and coach to some extent.

Is it Lazors "fault" that Campbell threw two picks? Not directly. Perhaps indirectly. Perhaps he should have emphasized to Campbell that he needs to watch the corner and make sure he doesn't bait him on that particular route. I obviously don't know. Lazor is definitely more up in the air to me...this is his first year, tough to judge.

I certainly see a decline since Dewayne Jackson left. Our secondary has regressed dramatically. This, to some extent, falls on the shoulders of the coaches. Asking to assign blame to one side or the other merely illustrates your ignorance of any organizational structure. A failure of any organization is born by all parties, particularly those in the command and control positions.

Edit: Lombardi--I swear I used the organizational structure example before I even read your post...hmmmm, perhaps Bubba is getting schooled here.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Anyway, back to the lecture at hand, I think Williams deserves another year, because he does have a track record. I do think that he needs to be reminded that players matter more than schemes and that he needs to stop asking players to do impossible tasks.

And maybe if he had a new staff, he could get more realistic feedback. If I were Gibbs, I would fire half his staff just to let him know I was still in charge, not him. That seems to be the biggest problem with the team is that the coaches are too territorial.

[skins4eva]

Anyway' date=' back to the lecture at hand, I think Williams deserves another year, because he does have a track record. I do think that he needs to be reminded that players matter more than schemes and that he needs to stop asking players to do impossible tasks.

And maybe if he had a new staff, he could get more realistic feedback. If I were Gibbs, I would fire half his staff just to let him know I was still in charge, not him. That seems to be the biggest problem with the team is that the coaches are too territorial.[/quote']

Agreed. This team doesn't seem to function as a "team" to many individuals more so among the coaches than the players.

[KingGibbs]

:cry: poor baby

Did I pretend to say I know anything about what goes on at Redskin park?... I believe that was my Rebuttal... and a very clear one

So again I ask you, since you are the one calling for coaches dismissals...

educate me on how you know who is doing their job and who is not, and what are failures on the field are the fault of coaching or the fault of the player?

Is it Lazors fault that Campbell threw two Int, that resulted in an 14 points for the eagles?

4-9 sucks, and there is much to complain about, but calling for someones job, even on a message board is extreme (no pun) and deserves a little more insight into what's going on than that which you have displayed

Bubba why are you so irrate over this? It makes for good discussion. Personally, I think the coaching staff needs to remain mostly intact, but there needs to be some adjustments starting with Bill Lazor. You don't develop a promising young QB with a QB coach who has no experience at that position IMO. The money they pay other coaches you mean to tell me they couldn't keep Musgrave happy who is waaaayyy more qualified?

See how easy that was Bubba? Contribute to the thread instead of questioning one's motive.

[drowland]

Well, if the Skins decide to stick with Al Saunders I think they're going to have to let him shape his own offensive coaching staff. So that probably means some of the old guard will be out. That or they'll just bring more guys in and give them creative job titles.

[skins4eva]

Bubba why are you so irrate over this? It makes for good discussion. Personally, I think the coaching staff needs to remain mostly intact, but there needs to be some adjustments starting with Bill Lazor. You don't develop a promising young QB with a QB coach who has no experience at that position IMO. The money they play other coaches you mean to tell me they couldn't keep Musgrave happy who is waaaayyy more qualified.

See how easy that was Bubba? Contribute to the thread instead of questioning one's motive.

That has certainly made me wonder, regarding Lazor. I know he's an ivy leaguer, I don't doubt that he is intelligent--but what qualifies him to tutor a young QB from scratch? It certainly seems a little odd. I would defintely want to see someone with more experience.

On another note, I love what Byner has done as RB coach. Betts seems to get better every week and Portis had the best season of any skins back ever last year in terms of yardage.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Agreed. This team doesn't seem to function as a "team" to many individuals more so among the coaches than the players.

The current structure of the staff seems very strange to me. I lived in Pittsburgh for a while so I know how that team is structured. And Cowher fires his coordinators at an amazing rate, usually when they stray from his caveman way of thinking (which - to his credit - works).

This weird CEO structure of the Skins doesn't seem to work to me. You have Saunders with autonomy over the offense...except the line, because he have an assistant head coach there...and except inside the 20s, because Gibbs wants input there. And maybe not in choosing personnel, because the position coaches all have a say.

And he still have someone else with the title of offensive coordinator in Breaux.

Gibbs seems to have no say on the defense because Williams carries the lumber there. And - even then - he doesn't seem to be able to tell his position coaches how to structure meetings.

I've worked in enough business that were too top-heavy with executives. No decisions ever really get made. And on the rare occasions that they are made, nothing is executed.

[Capt'n Obvious]

That has certainly made me wonder, regarding Lazor. I know he's an ivy leaguer, I don't doubt that he is intelligent--but what qualifies him to tutor a young QB from scratch? It certainly seems a little odd. I would defintely want to see someone with more experience.

On another note, I love what Byner has done as RB coach. Betts seems to get better every week and Portis had the best season of any skins back ever last year in terms of yardage.

Completely agree about Earnest Byner.

He has done a remarkable job for the Redskins.

I dont know if Lazor will not be here next year, but if he is, it will be interesting to see what he does with Campbell in the offseason leading up to the start of the regular season.

:logo:

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

That has certainly made me wonder, regarding Lazor. I know he's an ivy leaguer, I don't doubt that he is intelligent--but what qualifies him to tutor a young QB from scratch? It certainly seems a little odd. I would defintely want to see someone with more experience.

On another note, I love what Byner has done as RB coach. Betts seems to get better every week and Portis had the best season of any skins back ever last year in terms of yardage.

To be honest, I think QB coach is the most over-rated coaching position in any sport. Every now and then, a QB coach hooks up with a great young QB and makes his reputation - like Musgrave. But I don't know of any example where a QB coach improved a bad or even middling QB. QBs seem to get better organically or just stall.

You see running backs and receivers improve all the time. But most of the time, QBs show you all you need to know by the middle of the third year.

Heck, Tom Brady - for all his sixth-round legacy - was a star by his fourth start.

[skins4eva]

The current structure of the staff seems very strange to me. I lived in Pittsburgh for a while so I know how that team is structured. And Cowher fires his coordinators at an amazing rate' date=' usually when they stray from his caveman way of thinking (which - to his credit - works).

This weird CEO structure of the Skins doesn't seem to work to me. You have Saunders with autonomy over the offense...except the line, because he have an assistant head coach there...and except inside the 20s, because Gibbs wants input there. And maybe not in choosing personnel, because the position coaches all have a say.

And he still have someone else with the title of offensive coordinator in Breaux.

Gibbs seems to have no say on the defense because Williams carries the lumber there. And - even then - he doesn't seem to be able to tell his position coaches how to structure meetings.

I've worked in enough business that were too top-heavy with executives. No decisions ever really get made. And on the rare occasions that they are made, nothing is executed.[/quote']

And, most importantly, no one is really accountable. The structure of the coaching staff and front office are in complete disarray. I do agree with Gibbs, Saunders and Williams staying together. The continuity is important and players tend to thrive in structures with security, but the line between the front office and the coaching staff needs to be deliniated and Gibbs needs to figure out whether he would be more effective in one place or the other. Saunders needs a chance to do things his way, I thought that was the whole point of bringing him here. I believe Saunders has been hampered at almost every step, beginning with Gibbs decision to go with Brunell when it was obvious Brunell could not get the ball down the field with any regularity.

[KingGibbs]

Well, if the Skins decide to stick with Al Saunders I think they're going to have to let him shape his own offensive coaching staff. So that probably means some of the old guard will be out. That or they'll just bring more guys in and give them creative job titles.

I hope he does stay, but he needs to adjust to the players and not the players adjust to him. The OL loves the ground game and they are much stronger attacking vs pass blocking. You always see their intensity level go up a notch when the run-pass ratio favors the run.

[bubba9497]

I want to apologize for being a jerk

I was in a bad mood an this thread just sent me over the edge a bit, taking childish cheap shots, doesn't add anything when you want to express a point

So I am sorry

but I still express the same point, calling for someone to be fired is excessive, especially when you don't have the knowledge of the situation

being upset or disappointed over the season does not justify the level of bloodlust many threads seem to be calling for lately

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I believe Saunders has been hampered at almost every step, beginning with Gibbs decision to go with Brunell when it was obvious Brunell could not get the ball down the field with any regularity.

I would love to know the whole story behind the QB story. I mean, I still don't understand why Todd Collins is here. That would seem to be Saunders' call, but I can't believe that he wanted Brunell in there running 15 WR screens a game. So, he must not have complete authority on the position. We may never know that story.

I've killed Saunders all year, but I do think he's been hamstrung. "Here, you are in complete control of the offense. But I pick the QB, Buges handles the line, Byner is doing a great job with the backs, and ... oh yea...try to find something for Don to do."

[skins4eva]

I hope he does stay, but he needs to adjust to the players and not the players adjust to him. The OL loves the ground game and they are much stronger attacking vs pass blocking. You always see their intensity level go up a notch when the run-pass ratio favors the run.

And in these last few games, we've seen somewhat of a change. The same can't be said for the defensive side of the ball.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

being upset or disappointed over the season does not justify the level of bloodlust many threads seem to be calling for lately

The fact that we are sparing Gibbs, Williams, and Saunders here shows a surprising lack of bloodlust in my opinion.

I've never worked for a company that had a bad year and didn't make changes at the top.