bulldog Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Gibbs came back in 2004 and the club embarked on what most observers thought would be a 3 year plan to get the Redskins back to contending status. The contracts were backloaded to allow for a 3 year run without too much juggling and the players first acquired seemed to be in their peak performance years. Other holdovers on the team in their mid to late 20's who were retained and counted on also pointed to this time window. The Redskins after suffering through an unexpectedly poor 2004 by all standards went on to surpass all expectations in 2005 by making the playoffs and going to the divisional round. 2006 seems to be a season not with a further trajectory upward but rather a grounding back to mediocrity. The Redskins did lose Smoot and Pierce, Clark and several others on defense and the fact their replacements have not matched their production is of course an area to point toward in the descent of the club. But the Redskins are one of the oldest teams in the NFL and when you look up and down the roster the great hope was that 2006 would be the cash-in season before the inevitable rebuilding process would have to begin, much as Gibbs had to remodel the Redskin in 1988-89 after the Super Bowl victory in 1987. It is not coincidental that there has been an increase in injuries in 2006 while there has been greater inconsistency, given the aging of the roster. When one looks at the performance of both lines you can ask the question of which players we currently have are better performers for us now than they were in 2004 or 2005. Offensive line (from 2004 to 2006): Jansen 27 to 30 years of age - severe leg injury in 2004, various hand/thumb injuries in 2005. Samuels 26 to 29 years of age - chronic ankle and knee problems addressed in both the 2004 and 2005 offseasons. Thomas 28 to 31 years of age - a broken leg in 2005 compounded by a severe hamstring injury in 2006 that prevents him from acting as a true pulling guard. By his own admission, he is out there gutting through on one leg. Dockery and Rabach are average performers who at their best are steps below the other three linemen on the team. The Redskins don't run inside very often and the interior line has gotten almost no push against opponents, even the likes of the Haynesworth-less Tennessee Titans. On the defensive line: Daniels 30 to 33 years of age - Daniels has had his share of injury problems in 2004 and 2005. He had a very good second half in 2005 and in the postseason and has remained healthy. His reward has been to be switched to the other side of the line to a new position to accommodate a player in Andre Carter that the staff now hides from view on the bench. Renaldo Wynn 29 to 32 years of age - Wynn suffered a season-ending injury last season and rehabbed long into the 2006 offseason. Never a pass rushing threat from the outside, Wynn now appears to be slated as a part-time early down run stuffer for the club. Expensive at $1.8 million a year. Will he ever be able to take 50-60 snaps on defense again? Questionable. Joe Salavea 29 to 32 years of age - Salavea was a great find in 2004. A former Titan under Gregg Williams, Joe paired with Griffin to give the Redskins immediate credibility inside vs the run. Over the past year and half, though, Salavea has also suffered through various injury problems. Although none are season or career threatening they seem to point to a player whose body after 8 years in the trenches is starting to break down. Cornelius Griffin 27 to 30 years of age - Griffin is the Redskins best DL. Has been since he arrived in 2004, which was his best season with the club. He missed a number of games in 2005 and again in 2006 has an injury which will keep him out of 3-4 games in the first 8. You can throw in Brunell who was 33 when acquired but is now 36. You can add in Springs who was 29 and now is almost 32. Not coincidentally, both players have suffered through various injury problems that have limited their effectiveness. The Redskins have younger talent at a number of skill positions including Portis, Moss, Lloyd, Cooley, Taylor, the rookies Golston and Montgomery on the DL as well as the yet to be utilized Campbell and McIntosh. There is hope that a core of players remains to take this team into the future. But there is a lot of work to do in rebuilding the strength of both lines, recognizing that certain name veterans are no longer what they once were and that certain free agent acquisitions were just plain mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 this is what happens when you dont build through the draft and get free agents who are already in the late 20s.. also its not the skins are bringing in guys who are entering their prime and can accomplish big things.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 well, I agree with you that the traditional route is to build through the draft. the model that Gibbs and Co. used in 2004 might have worked to perfection so to speak IF the club had picked the right veteran quarterback to lead the team. clearly Brunell's struggles in 2004 handicapped the club and contributed greatly to the 6-10 finish. for a team with the #2 overall defense in the NFL and a running back capable of 1,350 yards rushing, the Redskins with a Drew Brees or even Jake Delhomme type passer should have been a much better team. ditto for 2005 where the presence of Portis and Moss along with Cooley cried out for a quarterback who could stretch the field and pressure defenses while the run game kept everyone honest. both the Redskins and the Cowboys made mistakes in their selection of veteran signal callers in 2004 and 2005 and the end result were teams that fell far short of what they were capable of otherwise. the Cowboys went with Romo sits to pee early in 2006 but he has been in the Dallas system for 3 years and performed well in the preseason, in many people's minds outplaying Bledsoe. One part of me says that the Redskins could do with Campbell just what the team did in 1985 with Jay Schroeder. Write down plays on a wristband, simply things and use the younger quarterback's arm to supplement a solid ground attack and keep defenses off balance in an attempt to climb back into the NFC race. The Redskins failed to make the playoffs in 1985 although they did finish 10-6. But they laid the foundations for 1986 when the club went 12-4 and Schroeder made the pro bowl with 4,105 yards passing and an appearance in the NFC title game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 sorry veterans in ther mid to late 20's is hardly "old" We have 1 starter over 30 on offense we have 2 starters over 30 on defense we are ancient Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 we have no depth because of the free agents we constantly bring in.. bull dog named em.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 Brunell is 36. Thomas is 31. Jansen is either 30 or will be 30 by the end of the calendar year. The cumulative injuries to Chris Samuels in recent years is well documented. Samuels, a starter since his rookie season in 2000, is an old 29. His injuries have hurt him in his lower body, ankles and knees, robbing him of some quickness off the ball. For a left tackle that is all it takes for a top tier player to slide and become vulnerable to the speed rushers. For a tackle hovering around 295-300 as Samuels is, his athleticism has always driven his game. He is not a flat-out masher in the run game the way that an Orlando Pace or Jonathan Ogden have been. On the defense the line is indeed suffering from a decline in productivity. This unit owned the line of scrimmage in 2004, started to allow some big plays on the ground in 2005 while 2006 has been a humbling campaign for all. I would suggest that the 33 year old Daniels and 32 year old Wynn are not the same players in terms of strength and stamina as they were in 2004. The tackles can't seem to stay healthy with a series of injury problems, and while injuries occur to younger players as well, when they become cumulative as in the case of Joe Salavea you have to wonder if it is more than the usual bumps and bruises. I don't think anyone can say that Griffin was as dominating in 2005 or 2006 as he was in that first season back in 2004, when he truly deserved a first-team pro bowl slot. Anyone who posits that we are seeing the best out of Warrick Holdman (31), Lemar Marshall (30) or will be seeing the best of Shawn Springs (32) from here on out is kidding themselves. The Redskins are currently the oldest team in the NFC East. That would not be cause for concern if the club looked to be building on 2005 toward some greater measure of success in 2006. But right now it looks like the club instead will be looking at itself in the offseason, trying to find ways of getting younger and better at a certain number of these critical spots, most importantly on the OL and DL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangee7 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 that's an ugly picture you paint bulldog...true, but ugly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 these guys may not be old, but they sure are playing like they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 Sorry, Bubba but my math differs slightly: Offense: Brunell (36), Thomas (31), Jansen (30) with Samuels and Rabach at 29 soon to join the 'group' so to speak. Defense: Daniels (33), Salavea (32), Griffin (30), Marshall (30), Springs (31). we can go back and forth on which of the 29/30 players will have birthdays between 11/01-12/31/06 and therefore which are still 29 but semantics aside we can look at the other teams in the East and see greater depth behind their veteran starters. we currently have NO offensive linemen off the bench that are capable of stepping in and replacing a Randy Thomas or Chris Samuels, even if they are slowed a bit by nagging injuries. the only reasonable 'play' we seem to have is to replace Dockery with Todd Wade, who flopped in his most recent FA spot, but played well in Miami for 4 seasons. Wade, however, is 29 himself and will be a free agent at the end of the season. on the defensive side of the ball the Redskins 'big' acquisition was supposed to be Andre Carter, the athletic 26 year old rush end who would make us forget about Renaldo Wynn and Demetric Evans, who platooned a bit at DE last season. so far, I am not convinced. and by that I mean I am not convinced that Carter can play DE full-time for the Washington Redskins. Period. A liability against the run, Carter is on pace for fewer sacks as a rush linemen than Shawn Springs had for the club as a cornerback in 2004. depth players on our club include a number of 'last stoppers': qb - Collins (34), Campbell (24) - I forgot Campbell is 'redshirting' for a second freshman season at the U. wr - Patten (33), Thrash (32) te - Fauria (35), Yoder (29) OL - Wade (29), Pucillo (27) and Whitley (27). The latter played 2 games for the Broncos in 2005 on their special teams coverage units. Is this the future? DL - Evans (26), Wynn (32), Golston (23), Montgomery (23). Perhaps the one area where there is some developmental talent. LB - Posey (31), Campbell (29), McIntosh (22). Are we ever going to see Rocky? CB - Wright (30), Rumph (26), Jimoh (26). The first can cover #3 and #4 wide receivers, the second and third players IMO are not NFL corners. S - Vincent (36), Fox (28), Prioleau (29), Doughty (22). Vincent is ancient. Fox is strictly a special teamer. Prioleau is out for the year. Doughty like Archuleta doesn't appear to have enough footspeed to cover fullbacks and second TEs in the NFL. That's a lot of the depth here. Oh, I almost forget running back. Betts is only 27 while Duckett is 26. Downside? These 2006 depth players are both unrestricted free agents in 2007 and neither has a real incentive to come back to Washington based on how Al Saunders has used them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfbovey Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 This is really where Gibbs philosophy regarding veterans has hurt the team a bit. It first manifested itself his firt year back when it was obvious that Brunell wasn't getting the job done. But he never gave the younger guy a chance until it was too late and the season already lost. And now that Brunell is back to his 2004 form, Gibbs is repeating the mistake he made by keeping him in the starting lineup. And then it also shows with the giving away the draft for veteran players. I know he likes veterans, but I hope he has a plan in place to get a youth movement going in the next year or two. Otherwise he'll leave this team in the same shape he left it in back in 1992. Old, tired and ready for another decade of mediocre football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 Brunell has played better in 2006 than he did in 2004. There is just a lot of OTHER things that are now not right with the team and Brunell being the consummate clock manager is not physically capable of making up for some of these other deficiencies with his athleticism and arm strength. The argument I make for starting Campbell is not 100% directed at Brunell but the state of the team. With THIS team playing THIS brand of football, 2006 is a season for an also-ran. With that in mind, starting a 36 year old passer who may be in his last NFL season makes no sense. There is no upside to the organization in doing this. We learn nothing for the future and only delay the inevitable pain and suffering of breaking in an NFL quarterback in 2007. Brunell is where Kurt Warner is. He is with a team that has clear flaws. He is going get hit. He is going to suffer receivers running the wrong route or his ball carrier being upset with how he is being used in a new offense. Warner lasted a few games before Green and Co. realized Kurt's experience was being over-awed by the other negative trends on the team. In that milieu the decision to start Leinart was akin to the one to start Romo sits to pee in Dallas. Why not go with the more talented player? A player better able to make plays with his athleticism when things break down around him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfbovey Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Brunell isn't playing any better than he did in 2004, at least not in my opinion. He just has WRs with healthy toes that can do more after the catch than Coles could. Brunell has all the same symptoms that he had in 2004, he can't get the ball down field and is wildly inconsistant with his accuracy from play to play. His rating is a bit better, but IMO it's misleading. This team does have flaws outside of Brunell, but he is a major part of what's wrong with the offense. It's him, and the playcalling first and foremost on that side of the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifty Gut Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 why do people keep calling our offensive line old? linemen can play well into their 30s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 Whether it is Brunell or Campbell at quarterback, the best thing Gibbs could do is unhook Saunders' headset and thank him for his service and then hand him a ticket to wherever he wants to go on an early vacation. Enough of players standing around not knowing what they are doing. Enough of seeing Portis get 10 carries in games that are close going into the fourth quarter. Enough of Chris Cooley not being used as a receiver except as an afterthought. This offense has regressed from last season when by admission we were running a very vanilla scheme. Well, the current scheme may work with Kurt Warner or Trent Green in their primes but the Redskins are not so blessed at quarterback in 2006. We have a 36 year old vet and a 24 year old greenie to develop. If Saunders didn't realize this was a situation that warranted major adjustments back in January when he took the job, then he failed in his first duty to himself - do the due diligence to determine if you are going into the right situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfbovey Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 why do people keep calling our offensive line old? linemen can play well into their 30s If they can stay healthy. And our line hasn't been able to do that. You get older alot quicker if you are constantly playing injured. Jansen hasn't been the same since his achilles injury. Samuels ALWAYS has something wrong with either his knees or his ankles. Thomas, the same. Jumping the Shark is a term that's probably more appropriate. None of these guys are as good as they once were. Some of that might be due to a new offensive system. These guys struggled when Spurrier was here ( a finesse offense) and now we're back to that point again with Saunders. Because really, there's not that much difference between what both of these coaches have done for the Redskins. At least so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuryYourDuke Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 sorry veterans in ther mid to late 20's is hardly "old"We have 1 starter over 30 on offense we have 2 starters over 30 on defense we are ancient The facts are the facts...we are the oldest team in the NFL. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Great posts, bulldog. One part of me says that the Redskins could do with Campbell just what the team did in 1985 with Jay Schroeder. Write down plays on a wristband, simply things and use the younger quarterback's arm to supplement a solid ground attack and keep defenses off balance in an attempt to climb back into the NFC race. Let's use a more recent example: Roethlisberger in 2004. We're a team that can run 55% of the time when we set our mind to it, and simply ask the QB to keep the defense honest and make the occasional third-and-medium completion to convert first downs. It may not be sexy or exciting, but we can score 20 points per game with it, and shorten the amount of time our defense is on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21Knock_U_Out Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 People are acting like we are the Raiders from a couple years back!We are not the old ass Faders....are we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Happy Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Redskins simply got injured fast at critical spots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altair4 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 What is the ONE common denominator through all of the recent debacles? The front office. Dannt and Vinny apparently need to justify their existance by spending a lot of money on questionable players EVERY year. Did it work in the past? NO. Did it work this year? NO! The D is worse off, the O is discombobulated, and the fans are stuck paying more for a worse product. Joe says it starts with him. I say it starts with Snyder and Cerrato. They need to concieve of the idea of building a team through the draft, rewarding those that bust their chops, and building Loyalty and team pride through SANE personnel policies. Somehow I think I am dreaming.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bricucci Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 What is the ONE common denominator through all of the recent debacles?The front office. Dannt and Vinny apparently need to justify their existance by spending a lot of money on questionable players EVERY year. Did it work in the past? NO. Did it work this year? NO! The D is worse off, the O is discombobulated, and the fans are stuck paying more for a worse product. Joe says it starts with him. I say it starts with Snyder and Cerrato. They need to concieve of the idea of building a team through the draft, rewarding those that bust their chops, and building Loyalty and team pride through SANE personnel policies. Somehow I think I am dreaming.... If you really think Dan and Vinny are making these calls on free agents then you need to take the blinders off, Joe Gibbs is the president and it starts with him. Will never question his coaching ability, but personel deciscions have been very shaky at best this year. We'd better hope Campbell sees the field, because if he is not the answer we will probably have a realistic shot at Quinn in next years draft, you may laugh, but its a realistic possibility that the Skins may need to go that route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinpride1 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 sorry veterans in ther mid to late 20's is hardly "old"We have 1 starter over 30 on offense we have 2 starters over 30 on defense we are ancient I think they got it all wrong is not the age, it is the mileage!!!!You can't deny we have way to many banged up players on the roster!!The injuries seem to be on going with alot of the players and with ones that are the core players.Not good at all!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasimpson Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Thank you Bulldog for putting into words what I have been thinking for a long time, this team is old. To make it worse they are old in the offensive and defensive lines, the areas where games are won and lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK Skins Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 They play like a team with a lot of old, or jaded players. All the stupid penalties, miscommunications, assignment breakdowns are indicative of this. It is almost as if the players believed all the hype created by the incredible finish to last season and believed they were going to the Superbowl (just like many of us). Sadly we would be better off gutting this team and starting again. Too many old, injured or disinterested players earning too much money. Pierce and Clark may not have been the best at their positions but they were cheap(ish) and wanted to play for the Redskins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Our team is right on the borderline of being "old" at some key positions, particularly on both lines and at the LB spots. And the biggest problem is that - outside of defensive tackle - there does not appear to be any young talent behind the starters. And the starters on the offensive line were always slightly over-rated to begin with. It's possible that Gibbs' three-year plan was actually a two-year plan and we are now on the down-side of that run. And then the question becomes, if it is going to take another two or three years to get good again, are Jansen, Samuels, and Thomas going to be around for the next peak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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