AP:Don't Expect Gibbs to Pull Brunell Anytime Soon

[jimster]

Don't Expect Gibbs to Pull Brunell Anytime Soon

http://sports.iwon.com/news/09212006/v7264.html

Sep 21, 6:12 PM (ET) Email this Story

By JOSEPH WHITE

ASHBURN, Va. (AP) -In 1985, Joe Theismann was 36 years old and having his worst season in the NFL, with eight touchdown passes and 16 interceptions. The Washington Redskins were hanging around .500, on the way to missing the playoffs for the first time in four years.

Coach Joe Gibbs refused to take Theismann out. When the quarterback change finally took place, it was by gruesome means. Lawrence Taylor broke Theismann's leg in the 11th game of the season, ending Theismann's career and forcing Gibbs to turn to 24-year-old backup Jay Schroeder.

Two years ago, Mark Brunell was having the worst season of his career at age 34, unable to throw for even 100 yards in most of his starts. Gibbs stuck by the veteran as long as he could before benching him in the ninth game for Patrick Ramsey.

Last year, Ramsey began the season at the helm at the ripe age of 26. He was shaky from the outset and didn't even last one game.

Which brings the story to this year. Brunell is the starter again. He's 36, the same age as Theismann 21 years ago. He isn't playing well, the offense has scored only one touchdown, and the record is 0-2.

Frustrated fans can flood the talk shows and Internet chat rooms all they want with calls for Brunell to be replaced by second-year player Jason Campbell, and it won't matter. No one should expect Brunell to get the hook anytime soon. Gibbs is a coach who loves his players seasoned.

"I'd say, in general," Gibbs said, "you're more willing to replace a younger guy than an older guy."

Brunell's status has been a popular topic at Redskins Park this week. Players have been asked whether they support their quarterback, and, of course, they always say yes. A reporter began a group interview session with Brunell by asking, in jest, "How does it feel to be 36 and washed up?"

Gibbs said he had a long talk with Brunell on Tuesday, chatting "quite a bit about things in general." Campbell, yet to play a down in the NFL, responded to the fuss by saying: "The backup quarterback's always the most popular, no matter what - high school, college or NFL."

But, through it all, there was never any doubt that Brunell would start Sunday's game against the Houston Texans.

"Normally when things are not going well, and it's several weeks involved, a lot of it gets attributed to him, and the easiest thing is to say 'Let's change quarterbacks,"' Gibbs said. "But a lot of time that's not what's best for the team. As a coach, you understand it, and you see a lot of things other people don't see."

"If there's anybody who's got a great outlook into things, it's Mark," Gibbs added. "He does a good job of analyzing things. He's been around a long time. He's been through a lot of tough situations in the past. He handles them great. He's got a lot of class. I think he feels the way I do, it's just a matter of us all getting together. ... If you look at our offense, there's no part of it that's been good."

Gibbs has a point: Brunell is not the only problem. The running game hasn't clicked. The offensive line is off to a disappointing start. The receivers aren't always running the correct routes. Everyone is still trying to master assistant coach Al Saunders' new offensive schemes.

"Mark is just the most visible guy in the offense, so he's going to take the most blame," tackle Jon Jansen said. "And hopefully when we get things turned around, he's going to take the most credit, too. We have to as an offense give him time, give him options, give him opportunities. It's pretty unjustified to blame him now."

So how much leeway does Brunell have? If the Redskins lose to Houston, will Gibbs make a move? Probably not. Brunell has plenty of goodwill in the bank after leading the team to the playoffs last year, even if he did struggle in the postseason. A more realistic time to switch, if the team keeps losing, would be during the bye week in late October.

Gibbs doesn't think in those terms, however. He relies on his gut feeling when he makes a change. Although it could come anytime, it's more likely to be later rather than sooner when there's a thirty-something quarterback involved.

"It always goes back to what you feel," Gibbs said. "I don't think you can program something. You can't make a plan for it. It's more than just a couple of games on the field like he had. It's offseason work, knowing what kind of person he is, that's a lot of it. Leadership is part of it - certainly with Mark, you don't get any better with that. It's also who you got behind him, and what's best for the team."

[UltimateSkins]

I pray that we don't go 3-6, but right now, I just can't see us beating anyone in our division with Brunell as the QB.

[FunBunch7]

So we got our tails whipped in Dallas...it's happened in the past and it will happen in the future.

We lost a hard fought game in the opener to the Vikings with our starting RB not 100%

We were a kick away from tying and in OT anything could have happened.

We WILL beat the Texans to go to 1-2 and then home for Jax. This is a winnable game as well which would even our record at 2-2 and then it's a new season.

There is NO team in our division that is seperating itself form the rest right now.

Every team will have to get through it's "storm" and we are just baout to get out of ours...I'm pretty dang excited again!

[bubba9497]

People are really making more out of not benching Theisman that year, than it really was

we were 6-5 still in the hunt, and only an inexperienced Schroerder, who at the time never taken a regular season snap, on a veteran team.

notice that other stats weren't mentioned... because JS stats weren't that different than JT's after he took over except the INT's

Also left out is that Gibbs, benched JS with ( what many thought) a has been Doug Williams, and a couple years later benched Doug Williams for Mark Rypien

and that Gibbs also Benched the great John Riggins, when he traded for George Rogers, and demoted the Great Art Monk

but why let facts cloud the issue

[bubba9497]

Also at the time Theisman went down, not many people where thrilled that Scheorder was going to take over for the season, in fact many thought we'd be lucky to win a game the rest of the year.

again... those pesky details and facts

[jsevier]

Also at the time Theisman went down, not many people where thrilled that Scheorder was going to take over for the season, in fact many thought we'd be lucky to win a game the rest of the year.

again... those pesky details and facts

Yeh those damn pesky details and facts are very aggravating to those trying to make a case as to why Brunell should sit! :laugh: Seriously though, people say Gibbs has changed but I dont see it. He has adapted yes but changed who he is no.

[mangan]

Since were at it......I guess we better replace the "O" line.......6 sacks.........clean out the lockers....

[The Rook]

Also at the time Theisman went down, not many people where thrilled that Scheorder was going to take over for the season, in fact many thought we'd be lucky to win a game the rest of the year.

again... those pesky details and facts

I remember the '85 season and how poorly Joey T was playing. I was at the NY game @ RFK when LT broke his leg. JT was playing poorly and Joe Morris was eating us up - he ran for 3 TDs (the shortest was about 30 yds). Anyway Joe goes out, Jay comes in and throws a bomb to Monk in the endzone and we end up with the W (24-21 I think).

My point is people just need to chill about replacing Mark. It is Gibbs' team and he will run it as he sees fit. No matter what the fans scream or beg for, Coach does it his way. :helmet:

[scruffylookin]

People are really making more out of not benching Theisman that year, than it really was

we were 6-5 still in the hunt, and only an inexperienced Schroerder, who at the time never taken a regular season snap, on a veteran team.

notice that other stats weren't mentioned... because JS stats weren't that different than JT's after he took over except the INT's

Also left out is that Gibbs, benched JS with ( what many thought) a has been Doug Williams, and a couple years later benched Doug Williams for Mark Rypien

and that Gibbs also Benched the great John Riggins, when he traded for George Rogers, and demoted the Great Art Monk

but why let facts cloud the issue

You know if you're going to talk about facts, perhaps you should be accurate in your own posts.

First the Redskins were 5-5, they got to 6-5 after the Giants game.

Second, Schroeder was significantly better. Forget the fact that he had 1 yard more per attempt a better interception percentage and a better QB rating. I have the games from 1985, and it is night and day between what Theismann was doing and what Schroeder did.

Yes he benched Schroeder, but as Gibbs has admitted in this article, he benches the young guy quicker than the old guy.

He benched Williams only after Rypien came in and showed what he can do and it still took him a long time before accepting Rypien as the unquestioned starter and gave up on trying to reinsert Williams as the starter.

Riggins and Monk are irrelevent to this discussion. Gibbs has shown that he treats his trusted veteran QB far differently than any other player.

Those are the facts.

Don't let them get in the way okay?

[jsevier]

You know if you're going to talk about facts, perhaps you should be accurate in your own posts.

First the Redskins were 5-5, they got to 6-5 after the Giants game.

Second, Schroeder was significantly better. Forget the fact that he had 1 yard more per attempt a better interception percentage and a better QB rating. I have the games from 1985, and it is night and day between what Theismann was doing and what Schroeder did.

Yes he benched Schroeder, but as Gibbs has admitted in this article, he benches the young guy quicker than the old guy.

He benched Williams only after Rypien came in and showed what he can do and it still took him a long time before accepting Rypien as the unquestioned starter and gave up on trying to reinsert Williams as the starter.

Riggins and Monk are irrelevent to this discussion. Gibbs has shown that he treats his trusted veteran QB far differently than any other player.

Those are the facts.

Don't let them get in the way okay?

Also at the time Theisman went down, not many people where thrilled that Scheorder was going to take over for the season, in fact many thought we'd be lucky to win a game the rest of the year.

again... those pesky details and facts

See, I told you those FACTS would mess up a perfectly good thread! :laugh:

[bulldog]

Quarterback is the one position where age and experience can count as real assets. The key is for the OC to be creative and fashion the offense around the strengths of the player.

Brunell is not going to make some throws at age 36 that he made 10 years ago. We all know that. Gibbs knows that. Saunders knows that. Now is the time to change things up a bit, get more basic and go back to what worked last year.

We didn't need to turn this offense into an aerial circus. We upgraded at WR and found a short yardage back.

This is not a finesse offense. The Redskins won't win throwing the ball 30 plus times a game.

We should be seeing some clear improvements over 2005.

[DieselPwr44]

People are really making more out of not benching Theisman that year, than it really was

we were 6-5 still in the hunt, and only an inexperienced Schroerder, who at the time never taken a regular season snap, on a veteran team.

notice that other stats weren't mentioned... because JS stats weren't that different than JT's after he took over except the INT's

Also left out is that Gibbs, benched JS with ( what many thought) a has been Doug Williams, and a couple years later benched Doug Williams for Mark Rypien

but why let facts cloud the issue

How about practicing what you preach bubba??

Why is it that you never bring up the fact that after Theismann went down that very next season Schroeder led us to the NFC Championship game(losing to eventually SB champ: Giants)?

And how about quit spreading the falsehood that Joe Gibbs benched Schroeder in favor of Williams.

Schroeder was slammed into the turf late in the season and seperated his shoulder. Williams replaced Jay due to injury, not performance.

After the shoulder injury, Jay was never the same..thus Gibbs traded him away for Lachey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Schroeder

A third round draft pick by Washington after a steller college career at UCLA, Schroeder won the starting spot on the Redskins in his second NFL season and led them to a 12-4 record while throwing for a franchise record 4,109 passing yards and making the pro bowl. He managed to lead Washington all the way to the NFC title game, where his team was shutout 17-0 by the New York Giants.

The following season, Schroeder suffered an injury in the 12th week and was replaced by Doug Williams, who went on to lead the Redskins to a championship victory in Super Bowl XXII.[/Quote]

[bubba9497]

You know if you're going to talk about facts, perhaps you should be accurate in your own posts.

First the Redskins were 5-5, they got to 6-5 after the Giants game.

if you want to be technical Theisman was credited as the winning QB, and they where still in the hunt for playoffs (we were 5-6 and made it last season ) JS did not offically take over as the starter until the 12th game

Second, Schroeder was significantly better. Forget the fact that he had 1 yard more per attempt a better interception percentage and a better QB rating. I have the games from 1985, and it is night and day between what Theismann was doing and what Schroeder did.

lets take a CLOSER look at the stats ALL of them I already admitted JT INT were worse (also the reason his QB rating was a lttle lower) but look at the Completion %... I said the where simular I believe???

I remember 85 very well, Scheorder had a bigger arm, that doesn't mean he played that much better ... that is merely your opinion, hardly a "fact"

Yes he benched Schroeder, but as Gibbs has admitted in this article, he benches the young guy quicker than the old guy.

And ?????? and how is that relivant to the fact he will bench a player if need be a Veteran has earned a little more rope and again I pointed out clearly it was a veteran team still in the hunt... you are going bto yank the veteran for the youngster who is unproven.... what if he fails.. than you are stuck

He benched Williams only after Rypien came in and showed what he can do and it still took him a long time before accepting Rypien as the unquestioned starter and gave up on trying to reinsert Williams as the starter.

Lets see Willaims won the super bowl in 87, and he benched Williams in 88 to start Rypien.... yep that is a LONG time And he also tried Stan Humproes in 89 because Rypien was struggling, he wasn't the full time starter until 1990..... So it seems he was willing to bench a QB who was getting it done, and try one he thought might several times..... exactly what you and this article say he is unwilling to do... imagine that... those darn pesky facts

Riggins and Monk are irrelevent to this discussion. Gibbs has shown that he treats his trusted veteran QB far differently than any other player.

Those are the facts.

Don't let them get in the way okay?

Yes the are VERY relivant because the main reason everyone is claimimg Gibbs won't Bench Brunell is because of some bound between them, but brother he had a bigger bond between him and The three players mentioned than he ever had with Brunell so far... those guys helped him build a championship team, and win Super Bowls.... but he didn't let loyality stop him from sitting them when he felt it was in the best interest for the team

now those ARE THE FACTS

Don't let them get in the way, again, okay?

[Underwater Ally]

We WILL beat the Texans to go to 1-2 and then home for Jax. This is a winnable game as well which would even our record at 2-2 and then it's a new season.

Byron Leftwich replaced Brunell for a reason. I'm afraid we'll be seeing just why they were so happy to send Brunell off, and they got a freakin 2nd round pick to boot. They were a year away from just releasing Brunell, then Gibbs went and made their day with a more than generous offer. Maybe that is what will work to our advantage and help us get the win. The Jags will see Gibbs and their hearts will be so warmed by the good memories that they will lose their attitude and their competative edge.

:laugh:

There is NO team in our division that is seperating itself form the rest right now.

Oh we've separated ourselves from the rest of the division alright. Just not in a good way.

[bubba9497]

How about practicing what you preach bubba??

Why is it that you never bring up the fact that after Theismann went down that very next season Schroeder led us to the NFC Championship game(losing to eventually SB champ: Giants)?

And how about quit spreading the falsehood that Joe Gibbs benched Schroeder in favor of Williams.

Schroeder was slammed into the turf late in the season and seperated his shoulder. Williams replaced Jay due to injury, not performance.

After the shoulder injury, Jay was never the same..thus Gibbs traded him away for Lachey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Schroeder

What are you talking about??? I don't have to make up anything or skew anything...

What does what JS did after the 85 season have any barring on Gibbs decision to stick with JT at the time... Did Joe have a crystal ball and see into the future????

and Hello, JS returned from the injury, ready to play... Gibbs decided to stick with Williams going into the playoffs, oh that isn't relivant I guess

I don't remember what the injury was but it didn't affect him afterwards like you are trying to imply.

Gibbs also told how the Raiders contacted him in the previous off season about Doug Willams for them as a backup... and Gibbs was going to trade him... but decided that he would probably need him at some point... and that he wasn't completely sold on Scheorder despite his stats, and wins

and lets completely forget the QB carousel from 88-90 Between Ryoien, Williams, and Humpries, and Brad Rutledge for a game maybe two

[bubba9497]

See, I told you those FACTS would mess up a perfectly good thread! :laugh:

ain't it the truth :laugh:

[DieselPwr44]

opinion, hardly a "fact"

Lets see Willaims won the super bowl in 87, and he benched Williams in 88 to start Rypien.... yep that is a LONG time And he also tried Stan Humproes in 89 because Rypien was struggling, he wasn't the full time starter until 1990..... So it seems he was willing to bench a QB who was getting it done, and try one he thought might several times..... exactly what you and this article say he is unwilling to do... imagine that... those darn pesky facts

now those ARE THE FACTS

Don't let them get in the way, again, okay?

Oh Really??

The Super Bowl was clearly the high point of Williams' NFL career. He suffered from injuries the following season, and was outshined by Mark Rypien, who eventually won the starting job from Williams. Williams would play one final season in 1989, as backup to Rypien, during his first Pro Bowl season.[/Quote]

So he was benched due to injury(if I remember correctly, his knees acting up) so it wasn't that hard of a decision for Joe to begin with. In all likelihood, had Doug's injury not occurred,Rypien wouldn't have seen the field then either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Williams_(football_player)

[bubba9497]

Quarterback is the one position where age and experience can count as real assets. The key is for the OC to be creative and fashion the offense around the strengths of the player.

Brunell is not going to make some throws at age 36 that he made 10 years ago. We all know that. Gibbs knows that. Saunders knows that. Now is the time to change things up a bit, get more basic and go back to what worked last year.

We didn't need to turn this offense into an aerial circus. We upgraded at WR and found a short yardage back.

This is not a finesse offense. The Redskins won't win throwing the ball 30 plus times a game.

We should be seeing some clear improvements over 2005.

I agree 100% with Bulldog for a change :laugh:

[DieselPwr44]

What does what JS did after the 85 season have any barring on Gibbs decision to stick with JT at the time...

It has everything to do with the whole theory that Gibbs will stick with a vet, no matter how bad he's tanking over trying someone new.

Especially if said vet had won games for Gibbs in the past. Had Theismann not been injured, he'd have finished the season and would've started the next no matter had he thrown the amount of INT's that only Brett Favre is accustomed to.

Also:

JS returned from the injury, ready to play... Gibbs decided to stick with Williams going into the playoffs, oh that isn't relivant I guess

By the time JS returned, Williams had the hot hand(a 94 passer rating). Now you ask any coach, no matter what sport, if they'd take out a player on a roll and see what answer you get....

Then add on top of that this guy is a veteran too and we know what Joe thinks about his vets...................

[Underwater Ally]

Since were at it......I guess we better replace the "O" line.......6 sacks.........clean out the lockers....

Had we been utilized our higher draft picks like some such as myself have been preaching, instead of tossing them around like hot potatoes, we'd have a lot more depth to work with, and maybe some guys who could push for starting jobs.

Nothing that we can really do about it now though. We just have to be patient and ride this thing out and hope starters can stay healthy and find a rhythm.

[bubba9497]

Oh Really??

So he was benched due to injury(if I remember correctly, his knees acting up) so it wasn't that hard of a decision for Joe to begin with. In all likelihood, had Doug's injury not occurred,Rypien wouldn't have seen the field then either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Williams_(football_player)

you really need to follow up and get all the facts... Willaims started games in both 88 AND 89... and Williams injury was a back injury that happened in the off season after his last season, in which he sued the Redskins over workers comp, because they cut him.

as stated before Gibbs started 4 QB's during that 88-89-90 period hardly the move of a man reluctant to change QB's

oh like it matters, not all were for injuries , and also usually when the starter gets healthy he usually goes back as the starter.... but hey again

WIKI is not exactly a 100% acturate especially on details

[bubba9497]

It has everything to do with the whole theory that Gibbs will stick with a vet, no matter how bad he's tanking over trying someone new.

Especially if said vet had won games for Gibbs in the past. Had Theismann not been injured, he'd have finished the season and would've started the next no matter had he thrown the amount of INT's that only Brett Favre is accustomed to.

you are making a HUGE assumptions

1. at the time JT went down... if he didn't get injuried their is exactly no way to tell how the Skins would have finished... and thinking anyone would know JS would preform well enough to win some games at the time before he played is ridiculious

having the advantage of knowing the outcome, makes it appear it would have been an easy decision... and no one can prove that leaving JT in there wouldn't have been the right one either if he didn't get hurt... Players have slumps and have high spots .. part of an entire season.

[DieselPwr44]

and also usually when the starter gets healthy he usually goes back as the starter.... but hey again

Usually that's true bubba...but not with Gibbs when it comes to a vet vs a young starter.

Like I stated earlier, Williams had a 94 passer rating by the time JS came back from injury. He had no shot of ever being starter again in Joe's eyes. Joe had his vet.

[PCS]

Doug Williams/ Jay Schroeder history.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/redskins/longterm/book/pages/158.htm

There is nothing like a quarterback controversy to stir things up. Doug Williams or Jay Schroeder? That was the choice at the start of 1987. And the relationship between the two was, at best, chilly.

Schroeder seemed to be the future of the Redskins. He certainly thought so. "Jay was not the most well-liked guy on the team, black or white," Williams said from his head-coaching office at Morehouse College. "He was an arrogant young man."

Williams had thrown only one pass in 1986, but Cooke's investment paid off quickly in 1987. Schroeder sprained his shoulder in the season opener, and Williams came off the bench to throw for 272 yards and two touchdowns in a 34-24 win over the Eagles.

And after the strike story:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/redskins/longterm/book/pages/161.htm

Once the regulars returned, so did the Redskins quarterback controversy. With time to heal during the strike, Schroeder got his job back, and the Redskins won their first two post-strike games, boosting their record to 6-1.

Schroeder then went into a slump and was replaced by Williams against Detroit.

Williams in turn hurt his back and didn't play for five games, though he was again healthy for most of them. Finally, in the last regular season game, Gibbs pulled Schroeder and made Williams the playoff starter.

[ArmchairRedskin]

I loved Jay Schroeder when I was younger. That guy was always good for a second half comeback. At least that's how I remember him. His 1986 season was fun to watch. Even though we didn't get to a SB that year, it's one of my favorite Redskins seasons.