Customer Service Call Centers!!! RANT!!!

[rictus58]

I'm not all for or all against unions. This case however has nothing to do with Unions. But maybe I'm wrong Sarge, Mass, and the rest of you fingering unions for this... could you point me to the Help Desk union? While you are at it can you remind me of a time that technical Help Desk employees in the US made anywhere close to 7 bucks an hour (which is more then they make in India)?

Let's be real here for a minute - technical education in the states is lacking. IT jobs demand a certain pay grade because the labor pool is small versus a healthy demand for their services. In India it's the opposite. They have a large supply of qualified (debatable) workers with no place to work, thus salaries are low. Extremely low.

That is what caused this particular case of outsourcing. Not unions.

Destino,

I understand your argument, but I don't believe lack of education to be the case. When I was having issues with my Dell, the CS reps I spoke to who were obviously in outsourcing location seemed to have far less skill than the reps I spoke with in the US. It was night and day as far as skill-sets were concerned. The reps in the outsourced locations seemed to be using a script, going step by step (despite the fact I'd done it 4x at that point) to solve the problem. Those I spoke to in the US thought outside the box and actually worked to solve the problem.

[Destino]

Destino,

I understand your argument, but I don't believe lack of education to be the case. When I was having issues with my Dell, the CS reps I spoke to who were obviously in outsourcing location seemed to have far less skill than the reps I spoke with in the US. It was night and day as far as skill-sets were concerned. The reps in the outsourced locations seemed to be using a script, going step by step (despite the fact I'd done it 4x at that point) to solve the problem. Those I spoke to in the US thought outside the box and actually worked to solve the problem.

I think I failed communicate my thoughts clearly. I didn't mean to say IT education in the US is bad, it's actually very good. What I meant is that this type of specialized training is widely available or used enough to produce the quantity of workers needed to supply the demand (which is why there have been special immigration visas issued to bring more into the country). Because of the scarcity of specialized staff the salary expectations are higher then they are in India.

This supply and demand effect on this particular segment of the workforce has made outsourcing a viable method of reducing cost.

[RyansRangers]

actually if you keep up with the call center busines and outsourcing at all, there has been a recent trend of India denying anymore call center outsourcing and some companies are bringing it back to the US.

Reason being that they are tired of just getting the US companies low end work and not any of the profitable real paying work. Funny how things work like that

[AsburySkinsFan]

actually if you keep up with the call center busines and outsourcing at all, there has been a recent trend of India denying anymore call center outsourcing and some companies are bringing it back to the US.

Reason being that they are tired of just getting the US companies low end work and not any of the profitable real paying work. Funny how things work like that

Hmm...they don't want our jobs either! LOL

I watched an episode of "30 Days" a couple weeks back where a guy who lost his job to outsourcing went to India to live there for 30 days and work in an out-sourced job. To hear those workers talk, one got the impression that a call center job was a very good job to have, even sought after.

As far as Union Call Centers, I can't think of any, but they outsource the call centers because they can save money there and its a lot cheaper to outsource a call center than it is to close and then build another factory over-seas. But don't fool yourselves companies are not just outsourcing call center jobs (although they do) they are also outsourcing many skilled labor jobs. Just ask Ford Motor Corp how many factories they have built south of the border since NAFTA was signed. Also there are many other companies that are busy building factories south of the border in order to save money on labor. And it is highly probable that had these jobs stayed in the US then they would have been Union operated.

For further reading:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060617/AUTO01/606170367/1148/rss25

"Ford Motor Co., which is closing plants and cutting jobs in the United States, confirmed Friday that it is planning to make new investments in three plants in Mexico over the next several years as part of its "way forward" restructuring plan."

"Ford has three manufacturing facilities in Mexico: One in Cuautitlan that produces the F-series pickup and Ikon small car; one in Hermosillo that build the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan and Lincoln Zephyr sedans, and an engine plant in Chihuahua"

If you want Made In America, better stick to a Toyota, since they have 10 plants in the US alone with 2 more on the way.

http://www.toyota.com/about/operations/manufacturing/index.html

How ironic is it that Japanese cars are made in the America and American cars are made in Mexico?

[CounterTrey]

hahahha I'm freaking Indian and today I lost my **** too.

I am Senior Mortgage Banker and I've got a loan closing in 2 days.

Its a good size loan and very good commision on top of it. Anyway I sent all the docs to a service rep who BTW is American. Anway she got confused and totally screwed up the loan parameters so i was trying to call her to get everything fixed and laso to ask her why the hell she hasn't called me back in 4 days.

We'll everytime I coudn't get in touch with her, I would press 1 to speak to a General customer rep and me being Indian, I know excetly the second they pick up where this call goes too. And yes is frustrating because they don't know how Real Estate is done over here and thats why I was trying to speak to my cleint rep who was the one who messed everything up.

But you guys do reliaze that we do need these overseas callc enters cause if we did it here, the product will cost 200/300% more. Having an American call center is so much more expensive than having one in Idnia and that's why when I go back I see 100 more than I saw the prevous year.

Its a global market now, jobs go where they can be done the cheapest and where the shareholders bottom line is affected the least!

[Larry]

Really admiring the folks announcing that the reduced quality of tech support is, they're absolutely certain, due to greedy companies (or greedy unions).

Well, I work in a mom-and-pop IT company, and guess what? The reason your tech support stinks?

It's greedy customers.

Used to be, the PC business, for example, had some companies that clearly delivered superior products and support, and companies that consistantly stank. For over a decade, every year, when PC companies were ranked according to the reliability of their products, the same two companies, HP and Compaq were always neck-and-neck for the lead. Following them, was a gap, then IBM, than a bigger gap, then lots of other companies. (I used to have a joke about HP PCs: Their reputation was so good that they could sell IBM compatables that cost more than IBM, and people would buy them.)

And every year for a decade or so, the worst company in the PC business was Packard-Bell. It was not unusual for 25% of their products to be dead out of the box.

And every year, Packard-Bell was the best selling PC on the market.

The market adjusted. They became more like Packard-Bell.

I sell name-brand computers. I'm factory authorised to deliver warranty service on those computers if they break. The company divides their computers into two product lines.

One product line is targeted on home users. They're sold in places like Best Buy and Wal-Mart. (I'm not allowed, by contract, to sell that product line.) The home computers come with a one year warranty. Used to be, you could buy one of these computers at Wal-Mart, and if it failed, you could bring it to me. I'd fix it (my typical turnaround time was three days), and send the bill to the manufacturer. But I can't do that any more. Now, if your unit breaks, your only option for warranty service is to call India. If India can't fix your problem over the phone, then you can try to talk India into sending you an empty box. (India won't even send you a box unitll India is convinced that you've done everything they've told you, first.) You put your computer in the box, and ship it to the manufacturer, who will repair it and ship it back to you. They claim their typical turnaround is two weeks.

Many printers are now "supported" the same way: Return the entire unit to the manufacturer. I used to keep common printer parts in stock, just so I could have faster turnaround. (If a particular part was failing under warranty a lot, I'd purchase one at my own expense and put it on the shelf, just so that when a warranty customer came in, I could repair the unit same day, order a warranty replacement part, and when the warranty part came in I'd put it on the shelf for the next customer. I've occasionally done the same thing for server parts: Buy a part at my expense and give it to the customer for free, just so I could deliver same-day service.)

When Windows 95 first came out, we'd get 20 phone calls a day from people who'd bought Win95 and were having trouble with it.

Our store, from the time Win95 came out untill Win98 replaced it, sold one copy of Win95.

And we sold it at a "profit" of 18 cents, just so we could sell it for one dollar less than Wal-Mart.

But every one of those 20 phone calls a day swore that they'd bought it from us.

Every one of them was someone who, when he decided he wanted Win95, got in the car and drove to Wal-Mart, knowing when they walked in the door that they'd get a box, a CD, and no support whatsoever. They chose to buy from "no support" because they figured it was probably cheaper. (And they weren't even right about that.)

And then, when they needed support, they called the retailer they'd spurned with their wallet, lied to us, and got mad at us when we caught them lieing, and chewed us out for not providing them, for free, with something that they'd chosen in advance not to pay for.

so go ahead, foloks. Keep blaming Unions and Corporations. And when you need electronics, hop in the car, go to Best Buy, buy whatever's cheapest, go home, and wonder why people don;'t support things like they used to.

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(And while your at it, keep voting for the Congressman who promisses you the most pork and the biggest tax cut, and keep blaming those crooks in Washington about the defecit.)

[zoony]

CEO's aren't overpaid.

They are in a position where every judgement/decision they make... 100,000 people's lives/jobs/well being are effected.

Try sleeping on that every night, then come back to me and tell me they're overpaid.

Fact is, there are very, very, very, very, very, very ,very few people in this country that have the smarts, skill, fortitude, assertiveness, and willingness to be a CEO.

No offense, but there are millions and millions who can sweep floors.

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[Destino]

CEO's aren't overpaid.

They are in a position where every judgement/decision they make... 100,000 people's lives/jobs/well being are effected.

Try sleeping on that every night, then come back to me and tell me they're overpaid.

Fact is, there are very, very, very, very, very, very ,very few people in this country that have the smarts, skill, fortitude, assertiveness, and willingness to be a CEO.

No offense, but there are millions and millions who can sweep floors.

.....

That's nice.... but a lot of them are over paid. No I don't say this because the guys sweeping the floor deserve more. I say this because as an investor, a lot of these creeps are raking in huge salaries and benefits while the people that own the place are losing their shirts. A CEO that doesn't have a vision larger then "I want to make a lot of money" isn't worth **** - and I don't care if very very very very few can yadda yadda - when you suck you aren't worth anything to me or the company.

[swaroopm]

If you want these lower level jobs back in the US, you need to explain to the people doing them that they're not going to earn $15 an hour with unlimited benefits to do the job a trained monkey could be taught to do (as the outsourcing is proving) for a lot less.

Taking a cue from George Allen, MSF?

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Taking a cue from George Allen, MSF?

I'm not sure what you're comment about George Allen is in reference to. I've made my feelings about non-American Citizens in general and non-Americans having an involvement in our economy/job market specifically VERY CLEAR over time, so I'm not sure what your surprise or shock is based on.

[Skinsfan1311]

CEO's aren't overpaid.

They are in a position where every judgement/decision they make... 100,000 people's lives/jobs/well being are effected.

Try sleeping on that every night, then come back to me and tell me they're overpaid.

Fact is, there are very, very, very, very, very, very ,very few people in this country that have the smarts, skill, fortitude, assertiveness, and willingness to be a CEO.

No offense, but there are millions and millions who can sweep floors.

.....

Not overpaid? I gotta agree to disagree here.....

The average salary for the CEO of an S&P 500 company $11.75 million in total compensation in 2005. (That's public knowledge...you can find that after a brief search on the net)...and that's just their annual take.....not taking into consideration the hefty retirement plans that they're getting.

It's an ego thing with many of 'em...they look at the other CEO's compensation, and say, ("Hey Joe Blow at ACME is pulling down $250 million....I want $260!) I've seen some crazy stuff with upper management.....having offices torn down and re-built, because one office was roughly 2 square feet smaller, than another manager on the same level....can't have that!

I don't buy into the "decisions that affect 100,000 lives/ lose sleep at night" thought either. These guys are so high up in their ivory towers that they don't have a clue as to what it's like in the real world, (i.e. living from paycheck to paycheck...worrying about doctors bills, paying for their kids educations, mortage payments, etc) They don't care about the working man. If they have to downsize, outsource, cut pensions, and reduce benefits to keep up with Joe Blows at ACME, then that's what they're going to do.

If you look at a large corporations matrix, there's the CEO....and directly below him are a bunch of Presidents, Vice-Presidents and Directors. Those are the people who make the decisions that cause you to lose sleep at night.

Can you think of a plausible reason,other than pure unadulterated greed, that we've been paying around $3.00 per gallon of gas, while the average salary of oil company chief executives is around 32 million dollars?

If you don't think that Corporate greed isn't more of a factor than the union workers, (as a cause of outsourcing), then you're just fooling yourself......

[zoony]

These guys are so high up in their ivory towers that they don't have a clue as to what it's like in the real world,

While I'm sure your rhetoric is applauded at union meetings, it couldn't be further from the truth.

Show me an out of touch CEO, and I'll show you a company that is getting ready to fold. You act like these guys are handed everything... like they never had to work for it.

I suspect you've never had a position of real responsibility. Where you had a couple hundred employees... or maybe even as few as 20... all looking to you for guidance. You are solely responsible for the performance of your organization. You and only you.

Because if you had, we would not be having this conversation. I really mean no offense by that remark (I seriously don't), but it is what it is.

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[zoony]

That's nice.... but a lot of them are over paid. No I don't say this because the guys sweeping the floor deserve more. I say this because as an investor, a lot of these creeps are raking in huge salaries and benefits while the people that own the place are losing their shirts. A CEO that doesn't have a vision larger then "I want to make a lot of money" isn't worth **** - and I don't care if very very very very few can yadda yadda - when you suck you aren't worth anything to me or the company.

Rather than speaking about the exception, we should talk about the rule.

Besides, if any one of those union guys that the other guy is referencing wants to be a CEO, nothing is stopping them. Except a LOT of grueling 20 hour days, an ulcer the size of a softball, a gift from the maker to motivate and get the most out of people, and a never-say-die attitude.

For starters.

But I digress, anyone can be a CEO if they're willing to put in the time and effort. Most choose not to, but they still feel a sense of entitlement. Because the FACT of the matter is that again, there are very, very, very, very, very, very, very few people out there who are willing to do what it takes to get to that level.

THAT is why they are paid what they are paid. Talent like that is incredibly hard to find.

...

[Skinsfan1311]

While I'm sure your rhetoric is applauded at union meetings, it couldn't be further from the truth.

Show me an out of touch CEO, and I'll show you a company that is getting ready to fold. You act like these guys are handed everything... like they never had to work for it.

I suspect you've never had a position of real responsibility. Where you had a couple hundred employees... or maybe even as few as 20... all looking to you for guidance. You are solely responsible for the performance of your organization. You and only you.

Because if you had, we would not be having this conversation. I really mean no offense by that remark (I seriously don't), but it is what it is.

....

lol! No problem, or offense taken! In retrospect, "out of touch" may seem a bit harsh and I agree, CEO's have worked very hard for their positions...you'll find no argument from me in that regard. I'm not selling these guys short, there are many good CEO's that deserve to be in the positions that they're in....but....I stand by my earlier posts....these guys do not deserve, or need $250 million dollar paychecks along with multi-million dollar pensions.

I'm employed by a very large, and succesful, defense contractor. I work closely with upper management, in both my day-to-day work and in my capacity as a union rep. I see first hand how management operates. I see how the responsiblities trickle-down.

CEO's of large corporations do not have the sole responsibility for the performance of these companies. They delegate it. They worked hard to get in the position to delegate, but that's the way it is.

If you think we sit around spouting rhetoric at union meetings,(a la the Simpsons), then I'll warrant that you've never been to one. We have better things to do. I'm also guessing that you've never sat in on meetings, across the table from management, literally fighting for yours and your coworkers, jobs. That doesn't make me responsible for the direcion of the organization, but it's a pretty big responsibility.

[zoony]

If you think we sit around spouting rhetoric at union meetings,(a la the Simpsons), then I'll warrant that you've never been to one. We have better things to do. I'm also guessing that you've never sat in on meetings, across the table from management, literally fighting for yours and your coworkers, jobs. That doesn't make me responsible for the direcion of the organization, but it's a pretty big responsibility.

I concede that point, I've never been to a union meeting or known what it is like to rep one.

And let me also make it clear that I'm not defending the Ken Lay's of the world, or even the Eisners. Fact is there ARE many CEO's who are simply overpaid, no matter how you look at it.

That said, there are thousands and thousands of CEO's and I think that for the most part, their pay is right in line with their responsibilities.

Fact is, you couldn't pay me millions to do that job. Seriously. It just would not be worth it. Getting 2 hours of sleep every night, living in meetings, waking up in a different city every day, NEVER being able to let your guard down or show a moment of weakness... every split second decisions affecting thousands of people...

no way. Let someone else do it.

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[zoony]

The reason your tech support stinks?

It's greedy customers.

And on another note, let me just say that this post is so 100% dead on balls accurate, it's not even funny.

the customer dictates the market, it's that simple.

If customer service were that important, organizations that provided excellent customer service would thrive. But they don't.

Look no further than ACE / True Value hardware stores. Those associates will answer ANY question you ever would have. But nobody shops there, because the same products are at Depot/Lowes for 10% cheaper.

But then the customer has the nerve to complain about a lack of service at the big box stores.

Guess what? You did it to yourselves. Stop complaining, and speak with your wallet if its that important to you.

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[rictus58]

If customer service were that important, organizations that provided excellent customer service would thrive. But they don't.

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there are a number of companies that do thrive while providing great customer service. Disney comes to mind. But sadly, you are still right. people care more about saving 50 cents then receiving quality products or service. Thats how wal-mart thrives.