JohnLockesGhost Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 My brother and sister (both public school teachers) saw this a while back and highly recommended it. I just looked it up on YouTube. http://youtube.com/watch?v=pfRUMmTs0ZA&search=john%20stossel%20education%20stupid It's about an hour. Tell me what y'all think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Interesting stuff My parents didn't let me go to the local middle school so I had a Catholic education in 7th and 8th grade The whole theme of this piece, competition makes schools better is dead on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Private schooling isn't always the answer, either. I went to several years of private school and it was still easy. I do think America as a whole is just soft and lazy. Everyone wants to save the kids by showing them that failure is not an option and when they go out into the real world and fall on their ear it's too devastating. Our system needs a swift kick in the arse and start showing kids it's ok to fail and also start educating kids on money issues, ecomony, and current events so when they DO get set free into the world they at least have a base of knowledge to fall back on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Dog Night Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Two threads with John Stossel in the same day. Hmmm. That's kind of like starting two threads about Gary Burghoff in the same day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Private schooling isn't always the answer, either. I went to several years of private school and it was still easy.Our system needs a swift kick in the arse and start showing kids it's ok to fail and also start educating kids on money issues, ecomony, and current events so when they DO get set free into the world they at least have a base of knowledge to fall back on. Before you do that, you gotta have kids that can read and write and add simple numbers The segment is pretty damning to public education, but being someone who set foot in both public and private education, I was much better off in the private school at the time I went there I do agree, its not all roses in private schools and they have their own issues, I just agree with the premise of the segment, competition will make schools better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLockesGhost Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 Before you do that, you gotta have kids that can read and write and add simple numbersThe segment is pretty damning to public education, but being someone who set foot in both public and private education, I was much better off in the private school at the time I went there I do agree, its not all roses in private schools and they have their own issues, I just agree with the premise of the segment, competition will make schools better The essence of the piece is that the problems with education aren't pedogogical but economic. Economics is the study of what resources go where. Resources are distributed EXTREMELY poorly in a government-run unionized monopoly which is contantly retrenching its monopolistic and unionized status. Ill-distributed resources mean less is getting done. So, I guess my point is that individual experiences in this or that public or private school is strictly anecdotal. The problem is much more systemic than any individual case study could demonstrate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 The essence of the piece is that the problems with education aren't pedogogical but economic. Economics is the study of what resources go where. Resources are distributed EXTREMELY poorly in a government-run unionized monopoly that which is contantly retrenching its monopolistic and unionized status. Ill-distributed resources mean less is getting done. So, I guess my point is that individual experiences in this or that public or private school is strictly anecdotal. The problem is much more systemic than any individual case study could demonstrate. Agree. My expierence was positive and I know others whose expierence was not so positive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Manatee County spends over 20k per student. And we have one of the worst systems in the state. This piece was excellent. And certain to be ignored by the Unions and Anti Choice groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLockesGhost Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 Manatee County spends over 20k per student.And we have one of the worst systems in the state. This piece was excellent. And certain to be ignored by the Unions and Anti Choice groups. If I remember correctly, this piece generated so much response that the unions demanded equal time to tell their side of the story. Stossel agreed (I believe) to allow them an hour uninterrupted. Then, he was to come out with a response to their rebuttal. I wonder if this ever happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 The public school system is not failing in its primary mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUNSTONE Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 The public school system is not failing in its primary mission. You may be right, and that program may be a little over doing it. But this doesn't mean the school system can't be improved. That NY union sounds like a ripoff to me. With that "rubber room" deal. But maybe there were a lot of fake accusations done by students/parents to try and get revenge on a teacher that failed them. Thus a system that's put in where it makes it almost impossible to fire a teacher. Who knows? Most of the teachers I have seen do care. Most of the problems I have seen and been through was from the parents lack of care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 SUNSTONE, "A general State education is a mere contrivance for moulding people to be exactly like one another: and as the mould in which it casts them is that which pleases the predominant power in the government, whether this be a monarch, a priesthood, an aristocracy, or the majority of the existing generation, in proportion as it is efficient and successful, it establishes a despotism over the mind, leading by natural tendency to one over the body." This is the goal that the public school system is designed to achieve and that very effectively. I don't generally agree with Mill, I consider him very evil, but on this, we agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLockesGhost Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 I don't generally agree with Mill, I consider him very evil, but on this, we agree. Mill? As in John Stuart Mill? John Stuart Mill is one of the intellectual giants of history. He was an eminent philosopher and statesmen, and one of the most eloquent champions of individual liberty the world has ever seen. Granted, some of Mill's utilitarian philosophy can come off as quite harsh, but it isn't without merit because of this. I too have areas of disagreement with Mill, but to call him "evil" seems extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLockesGhost Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 The public school system is not failing in its primary mission. I gather you're satisfied with a hundred billion dollar boondoggle churning out millions of automatons of mediocre intellectual ability. The current situation regarding education is an outrage not just because of the BILLIONS of dollars wasted, but also because of the MILLIONS of lives that are impaired because of poor schooling. And for what? So millions of teachers can live comfortable lives, free from the pressures of the real world of excellence and inferiority, raises and firings. Teachers' unions hide behind the notion that they are for "children," but in reality, they are only in it to advance the pay and comfort of their union members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUNSTONE Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 SUNSTONE,"A general State education is a mere contrivance for moulding people to be exactly like one another: and as the mould in which it casts them is that which pleases the predominant power in the government, whether this be a monarch, a priesthood, an aristocracy, or the majority of the existing generation, in proportion as it is efficient and successful, it establishes a despotism over the mind, leading by natural tendency to one over the body." This is the goal that the public school system is designed to achieve and that very effectively. I don't generally agree with Mill, I consider him very evil, but on this, we agree. I think there was more to the subject than just that statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 I gather you're satisfied with a hundred billion dollar boondoggle churning out millions of automatons of mediocre intellectual ability.The current situation regarding education is an outrage not just because of the BILLIONS of dollars wasted, but also because of the MILLIONS of lives that are impaired because of poor schooling. And for what? So millions of teachers can live comfortable lives, free from the pressures of the real world of excellence and inferiority, raises and firings. Teachers' unions hide behind the notion that they are for "children," but in reality, they are only in it to advance the pay and comfort of their union members. The point here is if the public school is achieving its mission, it is and that mission is inherent in the system. My satisfaction or agreement with this mission (and yours) is not relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Mill? As in John Stuart Mill? John Stuart Mill is one of the intellectual giants of history. He was an eminent philosopher and statesmen, and one of the most eloquent champions of individual liberty the world has ever seen. Granted, some of Mill's utilitarian philosophy can come off as quite harsh, but it isn't without merit because of this. I too have areas of disagreement with Mill, but to call him "evil" seems extreme. John Stuart Mill may have been an intellectual giant but he also believed in killing people accused of a crime just because they were accused. He was an enemy of individual liberty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 I gather you're satisfied with a hundred billion dollar boondoggle churning out millions of automatons of mediocre intellectual ability. You are missing the point he is trying to make. Read the quote again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLockesGhost Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 The point here is if the public school is achieving its mission, it is and that mission is inherent in the system. My satisfaction or agreement with this mission (and yours) is not relevant. It certainly IS relevant. I'm not willing to accept the current system, and its "mission," as a fait accompli. If you disagree with its so-called mission, then it quite frankly is immoral for you to simply shrug your shoulders and say, "well, they're just doing what they're meant to do." At this point, the primary mission of the public school system is self-preservation. If its mission was education, it wouldn't be afraid of competition. Indeed, it would welcome competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 If its mission was education, it wouldn't be afraid of competition. Indeed, it would welcome competition. That's the damn point. The mission was never about education, but it was about promoting conformism ( public education punishes individualism). So in a sense it is very effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLockesGhost Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 That's the damn point. The mission was never about education, but it was promoting conformism ( public education punishes individualism). So in a sense it is very effective. I don't know if we're just talking past each other, but it seems we're disagreeing over nothing. So let me just apologize if I've misunderstood somewhere along the line. Hail to the Redskins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 This is not new.The American educational system has always been unequal.Kozol and others have written about it for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 It certainly IS relevant. I'm not willing to accept the current system, and its "mission," as a fait accompli. No, your satisfaction with this organization's mission is NOT relevant here as to whether or not the mission is achieved and that is the problem. I you disagree with its so-called mission, then it quite frankly is immoral for you to simply shrug your shoulders and say, "well, they're just doing what they're meant to do." Yes, it is immoral but it seems that its what you want to do when you say the system should be improved. Unless your statements are in contradiction, it is you who wants to stand by and do nothing and in fact want to improve the ability to achieve the mission. At this point, the primary mission of the public school system is self-preservation. If its mission was education, it wouldn't be afraid of competition. Indeed, it would welcome competition. The reason they are afraid of "competition" is that those "competitors" would actually pursue an education mission or, at a minimum, pursue the brainwashing as the parents want. The public school system hides it real mission under the cover of providing education. "Competitors" would prevent them from pursuing this mission under that cover. EDIT: We are probably talking past each other. I would say that something inherent to the system is not a problem in the system but a problem with the system. The solution to fixing a bad system is not to "improve" the system but to question the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 How about we stop arguing semantics and talk about how to improve public education? I am with Stossel, and have been for years, and the results are staggering against our public education system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 The solution to fixing a bad system is not to "improve" the system but to question the system. I am down with dismantling the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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