Stephen Davis bashers are INSANE

[Larry Brown #43]

I was just browsing the NFL statistics for this year and I determined that it is insane to bash Stephen Davis as many on this board have been doing. Rellim's anti-Davis rant in another thread was full of emotion but lacked statistical basis.

Please allow me to share some interesting FACTS with you. Davis is rushing more efficiently (4.2 yards per carry) than: Jamal Lewis, Travis Henry, Corey Dillon, Edgerrin James, Curtis Martin, Tyrone Wheatley, LaDanian Tomlinson, Eddie George, Warrick Dunn, Lamar Smith, Anthony Thomas, Emmitt Smith, Michael Bennett, Deuce McAllister, Tiki Barber, Ron Dayne, Duce Staley, Garrison Hearst, Shaun Alexander and Michael Pittman. Davis is dead-even in that category with Jerome Bettis. IMHO, this is the best gauge of a RB's proficiency.

The amazing thing is that Davis is getting this done with an offensive line that has been dreadful.

Someone also tried to make the point that Davis has hands of stone and cannot catch. Interesting comment. Here are some more facts. Only TWO running backs in the entire NFL (Marshall Faulk and Tiki Barber) have more catches this season than Davis. And I haven't gone back to look at the tapes, but I don't recall Davis dropping many (or any) catchable balls.

As for the claims of Davis' supposed fumbling problems, it has already been statistically proven by Rat Boy in another thread that Davis doesn't fumble any damn more than the other great RBs in the game, so I don't even need to address that.

In a season where everything seems to be going wrong, shame on people for pointing the finger at the one thing that's going right.

[Art]

Just a quick point of fact here, Davis can't do what he's doing if the offensive line has been dreadful. Too many of you have been offensive line bashers, thinking that everything else is happening in spite of the offensive line. The offensive line is responsible for the negative plays it makes. It's largely responsible for any positive plays the offense makes. The line, now three games in as a unit, is playing some spotty football, making some mistakes and playing some stretches well.

Dreadful line play is of the variety that after three games you switch your left guard to right tackle and your right tackle to right guard and your right guard to left guard and you hope the Offensive Line McSalad shakes up well. Ok, that was just a shot at Dallas, but, who can blame me .

[Lurman]

Yes, all in all, F--k Dallas

[matty dread]

I agree, Davis is not at all to blame for the offensive woes. Anyone who thinks so is totally ignorant and I question their football IQ.

[Lurman]

mattyk72,

I don't think anyone necessarily blaims Stephen for the inept offense. He's been the only reliable part for some time now.

I think when there really is no other player on that side of the ball that you can look at and say "hey this guy will help us win games", people will focus their attention more on Davis and think "hey you why did you screw up you are supposed to be reliable".

Nobody remembers Westbrook dropping a pass if Davis breaks off a 8 yard run for a first down. Nobody remembers a Davis fumble if our QB can come back on the next drive and march us down the field for a touchdown.

[matty dread]

Originally posted by Lurman

mattyk72,

I don't think anyone necessarily blaims Stephen for the inept offense. He's been the only reliable part for some time now.

I think when there really is no other player on that side of the ball that you can look at and say "hey this guy will help us win games", people will focus their attention more on Davis and think "hey you why did you screw up you are supposed to be reliable".

Nobody remembers Westbrook dropping a pass if Davis breaks off a 8 yard run for a first down. Nobody remembers a Davis fumble if our QB can come back on the next drive and march us down the field for a touchdown.

I understand what you're saying, but overall, coming down on Davis is unwarranted in my mind. True he did cough it up in SF and that led to an easy score, BUT, it's not his fault he's been severely underused in this offense so far. Like any good RB, you've gotta give him the rock 20+ times, especially when he's the best player on your offense. He hasn't had the ball enough to justify any criticism.

If there is any blame to dish out I blame Spurrier for not molding the offense around it's strength, which is the running game. The line is much better suited for a power attack. Yeah I know Spurrier is all about the "fun and gun", but he doesn't have the players yet to operate his offense the way he would like. If Spurrier wants to have a good team this year, he needs to scale back his passing attack, and lean more heavily on the running game. Then next year when Ramsey is more up to speed, and the offensive line is upgraded, and the WR's have more experience, then he can start to air it out more. Until then, Davis is our only hope to have a good season.

It's no surprise that after Marty "discovered" Davis last year the Skins won 8 of their last 11. Spurrier can lead a similar turnaround if he is willing to grind it out a little more. Spurrier should pull the tape of the Skins and Cards and use that formula. 30+ touches a game for Davis is a winning formula.

Sorry for the rant, I'm just tired of seeing Davis get bashed.

[Larry Brown #43]

Originally posted by Art Just a quick point of fact here, Davis can't do what he's doing if the offensive line has been dreadful.

That's fine. Maybe the O-line hasn't been dreadful. But I stand by the facts about Davis as stated in my post.

[kleese]

Just to clarify, the "criticism" of Davis has been on two main points:

1. How does he compare to the other GREAT backs in the NFL-- Faulk, James, Holmes, etc....

2. What does he deserve come contract time?

No one is saying that Davis isn't a top 10 NFL back. No one is saying he ins't our best offensive player. As a matter of fact, no one even seems to be saying that he isn't a VERY good NFL RB.

But I take these following points:

--His fumbles and bad games, however rare, HAVE come at bad times.

--He isn't very explosive, meaning if you get him stopped early, chances are he won't KILL you with one big play ala Faulk, etc...

--He's getting up there in age for a RB and his punishing style leaves him prone to injury.

That's it, really, IMO. I just don't think he is in the elite class of RB in this league and I simply wouldn't break the bank for the guy. He's very good, but he isn't a BIG difference maker, IMO.

[redman]

I agree with you kleese.

However, I have to disagree with the blanket proposition that Davis' success is happening because of the offensive line and not in spite of it.

In 2000, when we had no passing attack with Westbrook gone and weak armed Brad Johnson with no one to throw to, and when we had undersized Jay Leeuwenberg filling in at RG for the injured Tre Johnson, and the undersized and mediocre Fischer filling in at C for the injured Corey Raymer, and Keith Sims effectively playing on one leg at LG, and Chris Samuels playing as a rookie at LT (effectively to be sure, but still a rookie), these were Davis' numbers:

332 Att.'

1318 Yds.

4.0 Avg.

11 TD's.

Davis effectively put up those numbers by himself, because he sure wasn't helped by the o-line. I'd take this year's line over that banged-up line in 2000 any day of the week, but it isn't a stellar line by any means, and Davis is only getting .2 more yards per carry than he was in 2000.

I think the credit goes to Davis who is a rugged runner who always manages to fall forward when he's carrying the ball. With virtually any other runner in the NFL, you wouldn't see nearly this performance behind our line. Faulk in St. Louis is evidence of that.

[@DCGoldPants]

Lets look at it this way

Would the Jets. Dolphins, Rams. Chargers, etc trade their best RB instead of working out something to keep him around?

that is all

[Art]

Bufford, that's an awfully loaded question, don't you think?

I mean, the Colts traded their best runner to the Rams before. His name was Marshall Faulk, and he wasn't a bad player with the Colts. Some of the league's better runners are guys who've changed teams. Ahman Green and Priest Holms specifically. Ricky Williams was traded.

Talking about trading Davis is stupid though, but not because it wouldn't make any sense at all. It would make some sense. But, you can't trade him because he has a no-trade clause so he'd have to waive it which would mean he'd essentially WANT to leave and in that case you'd want to trade him.

I remain solid in my views that Davis will ultimately stay here next year. Hell, the dead money cap savings difference alone could really mean we could keep him at his present salary and incentives and not be worse off than we are this year. But, I suppose the question of fit is still, somewhat, relevant to Davis in this offense. He's sure caught a lot of balls, but, not much is happening off them. He's not elusive when he catches, turns, and makes a move. You'd almost think any somewhat shifty back would be better out of the backfield than Davis, despite a high number of catches.

I'm a Davis fan, so that's not a slight, but, it's not a position he excels in yet. I don't know that he's made a guy really miss him yet. If he could, he'd start killing safeties on the move. He is a good runner and I think he's an asset in this system so I hope we do keep him. But, being without him isn't something terribly hard to contemplate on Spurrier's team. On Marty's team it would be impossible to view.

[matty dread]

I think some of you are over-analyzing Davis. Heres a guy who's gone over the 1400 yard mark twice in the past 3 seasons, and 1300 in the other. His perfomance over the past 3 seasons puts him right up there with the so called "elite" backs of the NFL. Does he have his shortcomings? Sure, who doesn't? But as far as NFL backs go, there aren't many I would take ahead of him. And the fact he's been ragged on a bit lately, considering he's only had 25 carries the past 2 games, just isn't justified.

[lavarthebeast]

Originally posted by Art

I don't know that he's made a guy really miss him yet. If he could, he'd start killing safeties on the move.

He's lost a bit of agility since the 2000 season. 4.2 yards per this year eh? That's actually pretty mediocre given the circumstances. The entire league is cherry picking the skins. They are playing 3-4 man fronts all day long and usually sitting everyone back, waiting for Mathews or Wuerfel to inevitably cough it up. Spurrier's offense is making every DB in the league foam at the mouth, for now. Their least concern is Davis, who just isn't a game breaker anymore. A better gauge is his performance last year under a system where the run and short passing was expected. 4.0 yards a carry and just 5 TD's compared to 17 in his breakout yr, and 11 in 2000. Which overall is acceptible if he didn't have an insane contract.

He's a goner.

[kleese]

I'll go ahead and answer the question. Which RB's would I rather have?

Well, this is an ALL THINGS CONSIDERED LIST. Meaning, age, etc... all play into my decesions. It's a hypothetical situation given I could trade Davis straight up for any RB's in the NFL. Here's my list:

-- Ricky Williams: Pretty much in the Davis mold, but has more explosion. He's somewhat of head case, which makes you hesistant, but he's talent combined with his age, make this an easy choice.

-- Eddie George: This one is REAL close. Very similar players, but all in all, I think George may have more gas in his tank, despite his injuries. Overall, I think Davis and George are almost carbon copies.

Corey Dillon: Poor guy is just buried on a miserable team. Hard worker, EXTREMELY DURABLE, at times explosive. If he can put those numbers up with the Bungles, he's got to be pretty good.

Edgerrin James: Easy pick. Explosive, excellent receiver, and can punish you too.

Priest Holmes: Possibly the most underrated player in the NFL. I might take him over ALL OF THESE GUYS. Holmes is simply dominating at times-- he carried KC on his back against NE last week-- I haven't seen something like that in awhile. He's the difference between KC being average and honestly being one of the worst teams in the league.

Ladanian Tomlinson: Not sure exactly what to think of him so far. But he's very young and has been productive so far. You can make the argument that he has 10 good years left.

Duce Mcalister: Again, pretty much a decesion based on age. I do like what I have seen from him so far though.

Marshall Faulk: I'm not as in love with him as many people are, but I do think he'd be pretty good in Spurrier's offense.

OK, so out of the 32 + RB's in the NFL, there are 8 I'd take ahead of Davis. And I actually think Davis is still probably better than 2 of them RIGHT NOW.

So, I'd say I view Davis as a VERY good player, but I have him 9th on my list, so IMO, that keeps him out of the "elite" group. In turn, it keeps him out of the irreplaceable group and the group I'd break the bank for.

[lavarthebeast]

I would add James Stewart, Ahman Green, Thomas Jones, and possibly Portis to the better than Davis list as well.

[Skins24]

lmao!

That was a joke right lavar!?

lol, of course...what am I say...of course it was.

:laugh:

Man, I haven't laughed that hard since the Spurrier lip thing!

[Skins24]

Let's say Davis gets minimal of 1400 yards on the ground. Right now, at the rate at which they are throwing him the ball, he will get somewhere around 500 yards in the air.

This should be one of those trivia questions, who was the last Redskin to have or have close to 2000 all purpose yards?

[GSF]

I can't believe you guys would take all of those guys over Davis?! Eddie George, James Stewart, Tomlinson, Thomas Jones? I'll agree w/ you on Faulk, Holmes, and maybe Ricky, but after that I don't know. SD may not be as flashy as some of those guys, but if he gets the ball he gets yards period. He's been way more durable then most of those guys. Hell George has been hurt for 2 years. Davis has still got a couple of good years in him, and when SOS gets the other problems with the offense straightened out Davis will really get it rolling.

[lavarthebeast]

RNK NAME ---- ATT YDS AVG YPG LNG

1 Thomas Jones 58 300 5.2 100.0 58

6 Stephen Davis 51 216 4.2 72.0 18

You were saying?

Granted this is just over a few games, but Jones was picked pretty damn high for a reason and it appears he's finally breaking out.... with the Cardinals. Can anyone really imagine Davis averaging 5.2 at this point? Or breaking out a 58 yard run for that matter?

[Skins57]

First of all Lavar, you keep those stats all year and I bet you Jones doesn't have 1000 yds by the end of the year. No one and I mean no one has expected Arizona to run the ball, every defense I would guess puts all effort to stop Plummer and Boston. If Jones keeps running well then he will start seeing 8-9 man fronts. And at that point we will see what he is made of. Davis is not the type of back to break a 60 yard run. he is more in the Bettis mold and he is mainly gonna run over people. Also I think his age is looked at way to closely also. The man has only been an every day HB for 3 season. How long was he a fullback and not the starter. James Stewart, heck that isn't even worth a response:high: :doh:

[Skins24]

lol lavar.

Do you remember someone named Deuce Staley, and what he did to the Cowboys in 2000? Do you have any clue as to what has happened since then.

Stephen Davis has had 3 extremely good years, not 2 very good games like Thomas Jones has.

Years

Days

Years

Days

Big difference.

Can anyone really imagine Davis averaging 5.2 at this point?

He had a 4.8 in '99.

The reason why he's not getting that now, is because no one knew about Davis then, now they do and the put 8-9 men up to stop him.

[matty dread]

Originally posted by lavarthebeast

I would add James Stewart, Ahman Green, Thomas Jones, and possibly Portis to the better than Davis list as well.

James Stewart?? LOL, yeah ok

Thomas Jones? He's had one good game, that's it

Portis? Maybe in a few years

[matty dread]

Eddie George is NOT the same back he once was, and he may never be again. He had a great run, but I think he's starting to show his wear and tear.

[Charlie Murphaaay]

Originally posted by Larry Brown #43

I was just browsing the NFL statistics for this year and I determined that it is insane to bash Stephen Davis as many on this board have been doing. Rellim's anti-Davis rant in another thread was full of emotion but lacked statistical basis.

Please allow me to share some interesting FACTS with you. Davis is rushing more efficiently (4.2 yards per carry) than: Jamal Lewis, Travis Henry, Corey Dillon, Edgerrin James, Curtis Martin, Tyrone Wheatley, LaDanian Tomlinson, Eddie George, Warrick Dunn, Lamar Smith, Anthony Thomas, Emmitt Smith, Michael Bennett, Deuce McAllister, Tiki Barber, Ron Dayne, Duce Staley, Garrison Hearst, Shaun Alexander and Michael Pittman. Davis is dead-even in that category with Jerome Bettis. IMHO, this is the best gauge of a RB's proficiency.

The amazing thing is that Davis is getting this done with an offensive line that has been dreadful.

Someone also tried to make the point that Davis has hands of stone and cannot catch. Interesting comment. Here are some more facts. Only TWO running backs in the entire NFL (Marshall Faulk and Tiki Barber) have more catches this season than Davis. And I haven't gone back to look at the tapes, but I don't recall Davis dropping many (or any) catchable balls.

As for the claims of Davis' supposed fumbling problems, it has already been statistically proven by Rat Boy in another thread that Davis doesn't fumble any damn more than the other great RBs in the game, so I don't even need to address that.

In a season where everything seems to be going wrong, shame on people for pointing the finger at the one thing that's going right.

Some people can see things that are more relevant than statistics. When you get down to it, what has S. Davis' stats done for the redskins franchise. Nothing. One playoff appearance which was probably more so related to Brad Johnson.

All Stephen Davis' are probably an average of 3 to 5 yards. He get's dumped the ball. It's not the same as when M. Faulk catches the ball IN STRIDE and makes moves to gain yardage after the catch. The other running backs you've mentioned are better recievers because the are way more agile, and can do something with the ball after they catch it. Whatch the games and you will see that Stephen Davis runs short curl and underneath patters, in many cases he catches the ball from a standstill position. If he's thrown the ball in the flat, or any other pattern in which he's really moving ..it's a crapshoot....whether or not he'll catch the ball.......

Next, I've always maintained that Stephen Davis is not the kind of back that carries a team when the passing game is not working or when you really need tough yards. He fumbles the ball when you really need to score, or when your near the endzone, or you need to maintain possession.

You cannot always measure a player's worth in stats. I know that when the ball is in Davis' hands I as a longtime redskins fan, don't feel that it is in safe hands. I as a fan hardly ever see S. Davis make the first would be tackler miss. I frequently see S. Davis run into the backs of linemen on 3rd and short yardage plays. I see Davis fumbling on or near the goaline, numerous times. I see S. Davis consistently being pushed backwards instead of forwards on running plays. I see a player without much heart, without much fight, who fumbles the ball in crucial situations, then has the nerve to make comments about wanting the ball more. He's an average running back, who will never take the skins to the next level. I see a RB who comes back from every offseason with nothing new added to his game, without any additional quickness, speed or strength, never trying to get better.

I don't dislike him as a person, it's not his fault he's an OK RB, and he'll cough it up if you tap him the wrong way, but he is what he is...average. You can look at stats till your eyes turn red, but character is shown when times are hardest..and he's shown very little over the years.....

[PCS]

rellim, perhaps we watched 2 different games, but Davis does just about everything you have said he can't do in the San Fransisco game. Quickness, good vision, exploding through the hole, making 5 - 10 yds after a catch. Is he as elusive as faulk? No. He is a power back who can move with deceiving speed. As for not being able to carry a team when the passing game is ineffective or when the team needs tough yds. Perhaps a review of last season is in order. As for the fumbles, we visited that subject on your thread a few days ago. I would suggest reading it again.