The Pieces Are In Place: 2006 = 1991

[onedrop]

No, I didn't play on that team. It's just the benchmark I use to measure all Redskins teams since then.

I disagree. That 1991 team is the benchmark I use to measure all Redskins teams since then. Especially since our owner voted this spring to extend the CBA/Salary Cap system that ensures a team like that one would likely never be able to be built again

You were commenting in your previous post about this 2006 team exceeding the expectations of everyone. Well, my expectation is a repeat of the 1991 season, at least. Every year.

HORSECRAP. Teams from different eras CAN be compared. Especially when it's the owners who have gone and cut the nuts off of this league. They've created this disgusting era of parity and mediocrity. They can have their teams unfavorably compared to teams from the day and age when the league actually had some credibility.

If a "Gibbs team" is truly anything like a New England Patriots team circa the last 5 years, which is apparantly what it takes to win these days, then I don't want this team to win.

Yes, I do. So far as I am concerned when a player or coach re-enters the league after leaving it, they have to prove their worth again. In fact, I would go so far as to say that if Gibbs can't win another Super Bowl, his inclusion in the NFL Hall of Fame should be looked at again.

LOL. The NFL doesn't allow people to crush other teams anymore. That's exactly what the Parity/Salary Cap era is about ensuring DOESN'T happen. I don't get down to DC from Massachusetts for games. If they can match that 16 point average margin of victory in the regular season, I'll sent you $100 to go to dinner though.

unfortunately you keep missing the point. Gibbs is the ONLY coach that could reenter the league and make a parity/salary cap era team even close to as much of a TEAM as teams once were.

Gibbs is in the Hall for what he has already done. the shear guts that it takes to come back and risk tarnishing his legacy proves that he belongs there.

when you say that he has to re-prove himself you sound a lot like an ex-Redskins LB that is no longer with this squad.

when speaking of comparing teams of different eras it has nothing to do with who owns the team at the time. that doesnt even make sense. using the 1991 Redskins as a yardstick by which all others are measured is not the same as directly comparing the Skins from then to the team of 2006.

we all want our guys to be that good. but, the league, as you pointed out, created parity and a salary cap. those factors forever changed the NFL. it was easier to build a team that stayed together then.

Snyder voted to extend the cap so we could get the FA's that we needed. knowing full well that we would get the guys with the talent to get the job done AND once here would want to stay as a part of a Joe Gibbs team.

you say that your expectation is for any Skins team to match or better the 1991 teams record and accomplishments. are you sure you mean that? because it sounds to me that if this were to happen your feelings might be hurt.

finally, comparing SC/parity era teams against earlier teams is like comparing stock cars to the production models from which they spring.

one is allowed to go buck wild with mods, special fuel, huge engines etc....and the other isnt.

[Gusthecat]

yeah the o line now is good, but doesnt compare to 91. samuels is good, but he isnt joe jacoby and jansen certainly isnt jim lachey. but i think our o line is good enough to get the job done

Didn't Lachey replace Jacoby?

[skinny21]

By the way, our running game far exceeds that of the '91, '90, and '89 teams...Clinton and our O-line will be the reason we get to the dance if it happens

Don't forget the D! sweet, sweet D...mmmm... I might explode w/ anticipation.

By the way... Mr. Mass Skins... I hope you were not serious about reexamining Gibbs' right to be in the hall if he does not win a SB this go around. I'm hoping I just read your post wrong etc. because if not, you have a multitude of lectures coming your way post haste. :helmet:

[illone]

No way.

As much as I am a huge fan of the Redskins, no way is this unit comparable to the Hogs. That oline had been together for years, did everything together, and loved each other. This unit has only been with Gibbs for two years and our Center, one season heading into his 2nd with us. You can't expect to have that same unity in only two-three years.

Also, the '91 team featured a QB that had been with the Redskins for five seasons. That team knew each other so well and had been in the same system for five years.

It's a lot to expect us to have that much success with our current team.

Now, with that said I do believe we can be a dominant team in the near future. This season, I doubt it.

Give us a year;).

[Mass_SkinsFan]

unfortunately you keep missing the point. Gibbs is the ONLY coach that could reenter the league and make a parity/salary cap era team even close to as much of a TEAM as teams once were.

Well, considering that he hasn't even come close in the first two seasons, I think I'll wait a little while before proclaiming that he can come back and do it again. Until then, in my eyes at least, he has a lot to prove.

Gibbs is in the Hall for what he has already done. the shear guts that it takes to come back and risk tarnishing his legacy proves that he belongs there.

when you say that he has to re-prove himself you sound a lot like an ex-Redskins LB that is no longer with this squad.

I'm sorry but so far as I am concerned ANY player, coach, owner, etc... who is in the Hall of Fame should have their name and bust removed if they return to an active role in the game. Five years after their death they would get another opportunity to be inducted into the Hall again. It's not supposed to be a revolving door. His "legacy" now includes two more losing seasons (any season without a Lombardi is a losing one in my mind). That's not going to help that "legacy" been seen in any more positive of a light.

when speaking of comparing teams of different eras it has nothing to do with who owns the team at the time. that doesnt even make sense. using the 1991 Redskins as a yardstick by which all others are measured is not the same as directly comparing the Skins from then to the team of 2006.

I think you missed the point... The OWNERS put the main blockade to greatness in this era in place when they let Paul Tagliabue whisper his demonic ramblings about parity, a salary cap, and revenue sharing in their ears in 1994. The have now extended that Godforsaken agreement for even longer. So far as I'm concerned if you tie a concrete block to your own ankle don't complain to me that you can no longer swim in the deep water. The owners created a system that doesn't allow their teams to be as good as before. Therefore they shouldn't be allowed to say, "Well that was then and this is now."

we all want our guys to be that good. but, the league, as you pointed out, created parity and a salary cap. those factors forever changed the NFL. it was easier to build a team that stayed together then.

Yes it was easier back then. However it was the LEAGUE/OWNERS who made it more difficult. They made it more difficult for their own teams to be Great (the standard I hold teams to). Therefore they don't get to say "But it was easier to be great back then." Especially after they have the opportunity to take the roadblocks out of the way and instead extend them.

Snyder voted to extend the cap so we could get the FA's that we needed. knowing full well that we would get the guys with the talent to get the job done AND once here would want to stay as a part of a Joe Gibbs team.

I'd have been willing to go 0-16 this year to see the Salary Cap, Revenue Sharing and this demonic parity system die the death it deserves.

you say that your expectation is for any Skins team to match or better the 1991 teams record and accomplishments. are you sure you mean that? because it sounds to me that if this were to happen your feelings might be hurt.

Believe me, my feelings are never hurt by Winning. Of course they might set a new bar for me to use in measuring future Redskin teams if they were to surpass that 1991 team, but that's a concern I'm willing to deal with if it were to occur.

finally, comparing SC/parity era teams against earlier teams is like comparing stock cars to the production models from which they spring.

one is allowed to go buck wild with mods, special fuel, huge engines etc....and the other isnt.

Actually it's more like restrictor plate racing versus non-plate racing to take off of your NASCAR analogy. The league/owners have put an unnecessary block in the way of teams being the absolute best they can be. Of course they say it's for the betterment of the competitive aspect of their sport. B-S!! It does the exact opposite in my mind.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

By the way... Mr. Mass Skins... I hope you were not serious about reexamining Gibbs' right to be in the hall if he does not win a SB this go around. I'm hoping I just read your post wrong etc. because if not, you have a multitude of lectures coming your way post haste. :helmet:

skinny, you did not misread my prior postings. I am ABSOLUTELY serious about the fact that Joe Gibbs' inclusion in the National Football League Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio should be reviewed pending the outcome of his return to the sidelines. Joe Gibbs VOLUNTARILY returned to the league. Nobody forced him to sign the contract Dan Snyder put in front of him. He voluntarily returned to a league so totally ***-backwards that I really thought he'd be here one year and run for the hills. He has had every opportunity to jump ship, and he hasn't.

Therefore I have to assume that he believes he can be as Successful in this new era as in the old one. Personally, I don't believe he can be (more because of the league than his talents), but that's a personal opinion. If he IS NOT able to match (or at least come very close to matching) his prior success, I really think his inclusion in the HOF needs to be re-examined. Not that he shouldn't necessarily be invited back into the HOF, but that his ENTIRE career needs to be used as the basis for his induction.

Then again I'm the guy who believes that Bill Belichick doesn't belong in the HOF because he's only ever had "success" in the salary cap era, so that may shed some light on things for you.

[supafly]

Okay...I don't remember the '91 team being that great prior to that year, but I could be wrong...Well I checked and I'm not wrong. IN FACT..both the 89 and 90 teams had the same record as last year's 05 team and the 05 team was better statistically with the exception of the 89 year where Rypien and his receivers had a great year.

However, you are seriously underestimating, or better yet not giving enough credit, to our current offensive line. Samuels is...well a friggin' Pro Bowler, and so is Thomas who according to many sports writers got snubbed. Also many think that Jansen got very little credit for protecting Brunell's (b/c he is a lefty) back side and should have gotten more credit where Samuels got all the praise by default. Dock is arguably one of the most mobile big men in the game with mass potential.

"Rabach started all 16 games and was part of an offensive line that helped running back Clinton Portis rush for a single-season team record 1,516 yards."

What a cop-out to say we don't compare to the 91 SB Champs...that's easy to say b/c the 91 team won the whole thing, but if you look close there is some validity to the comparison. Actually in many ways the 05 team was better, but that is certainly arguable...it's just my own opinion.

I think this (the original) post was a good one, and as far as the receivers...Moss had more yards and TD's than Sanders and Monk combined in 1990...that was the year before they won. And, Portis out-rushed his current position coach by 300 yards comparing the two years. :point2sky

I'd say we're in good shape!

HTTR!

By the way, our running game far exceeds that of the '91, '90, and '89 teams...Clinton and our O-line will be the reason we get to the dance if it happens :logo:

We stay healthy in 06 and we're dancin' baby...mark my words

Some good points, but one thing we got to keep in mind is that its not about a straight stat by stat comparison. You've got to compare the dominance of the 91 skins in relation to the rest of the league relative to the dominance of the 05 skins in relation to the rest of the league. We may be equal to or better than the 91 skins statistically, but in terms of our dominance with the rest of the league, due to FA, there is more parity now and we aren't quite as dominant...I also think player's skills and techniques are more advanced now but thats another matter...

[Chachie]

These threads are a jinx. :doh:

[onedrop]

Well, considering that he hasn't even come close in the first two seasons, I think I'll wait a little while before proclaiming that he can come back and do it again. Until then, in my eyes at least, he has a lot to prove.

you have more to prove as a SKins fan, due to your negativism as Joe Gibbs does. we wouldnt have any lombardi tropgies if it wasnt for him. you are making yourself sound very fairweather. if you are a true Skins fan you should thank your lucky stars that Joe came back and stop asking that he prove anymore. because HE WILL, he ALWAYS has. the man has NEVER let us down. give him the credit and faith that he has earned.

I'm sorry but so far as I am concerned ANY player, coach, owner, etc... who is in the Hall of Fame should have their name and bust removed if they return to an active role in the game. Five years after their death they would get another opportunity to be inducted into the Hall again. It's not supposed to be a revolving door. His "legacy" now includes two more losing seasons (any season without a Lombardi is a losing one in my mind). That's not going to help that "legacy" been seen in any more positive of a light.

sorry that BS doesnt cut the mustard. Gibbs legacy now includes coming out of retirement and taking spurriers mess to a losing record and then taking HIS first year squad to the playoffs with a depleted and injured offense. if your argument that any season without winning the SB is a losing one how is it that you havent killed yourself already? seriously, if that really is how you feel how can you not be excited about the team showing so much promise and potential in reaching your lofty standard? you truly are a typing contradiction.

I think you missed the point... The OWNERS put the main blockade to greatness in this era in place when they let Paul Tagliabue whisper his demonic ramblings about parity, a salary cap, and revenue sharing in their ears in 1994. The have now extended that Godforsaken agreement for even longer. So far as I'm concerned if you tie a concrete block to your own ankle don't complain to me that you can no longer swim in the deep water. The owners created a system that doesn't allow their teams to be as good as before. Therefore they shouldn't be allowed to say, "Well that was then and this is now."

listen, you obviously HATE parity and the SC, great so do most. but stop focusing on the "why we are where we are?" because WE ARE ALREADY THERE. there is nothing to be done about it. and it doesnt fit into the debate.

the debate is between you and i, not you and the owners. i wasnt even complaining about the cap i was simply pointing out the differences in the two ers and why they cant be compared. one would think that if you were so adamantly against parity you would see this perspective.

Yes it was easier back then. However it was the LEAGUE/OWNERS who made it more difficult. They made it more difficult for their own teams to be Great (the standard I hold teams to). Therefore they don't get to say "But it was easier to be great back then." Especially after they have the opportunity to take the roadblocks out of the way and instead extend them.

again, the reason you even have a standard of greatness to hold Skins teams is JOE freakin GIBBS. understand? without him you would have no mark by which to measure anything.

I'd have been willing to go 0-16 this year to see the Salary Cap, Revenue Sharing and this demonic parity system die the death it deserves.

sorry for your tuff luck but it aint gonna happen. so get over it and have some faith in the guy that built every championship team we ever had. stop waiting for him to prove something to you and recognize that it is already happening in front of us. do you really think a team that had mostly played together one year, with one WR, a banged up RB, injured QB and other key injuries down the stretch should have won five in a row to make the playoffs?

NO, such a team shouldnt have done it BUT we did. should we have beaten dallass, in dallass in the final 4 minutes after being shut out the entire game? yet we did. why? GIBBS. and you want more proof? you should be ashamed of yourself for showing less faith in the coach and the team than they show in each other. they are the ones on the field. we merely watch.

Believe me, my feelings are never hurt by Winning. Of course they might set a new bar for me to use in measuring future Redskin teams if they were to surpass that 1991 team, but that's a concern I'm willing to deal with if it were to occur.

willing to deal with??? i really wish i could fill your glass all the way up so there would be no question as to its volume. however you have proven that impossible so you will have to find a way to accomplish that on your own.

Actually it's more like restrictor plate racing versus non-plate racing to take off of your NASCAR analogy. The league/owners have put an unnecessary block in the way of teams being the absolute best they can be. Of course they say it's for the betterment of the competitive aspect of their sport. B-S!! It does the exact opposite in my mind.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

you have more to prove as a SKins fan, due to your negativism than Joe Gibbs does. we wouldnt have any lombardi trophies if it wasnt for him. you are making yourself sound very fairweather. if you are a true Skins fan you should thank your lucky stars that Joe came back and stop asking that he prove anymore. because HE WILL, he ALWAYS has. the man has NEVER let us down. give him the credit and faith that he has earned.

I have something to prove? After a decade and a half of living though worthless season after worthless season, I have something to prove? If you say so, sunshine.

I do sound very fairweather. That's how a lot of people look at my view of sports in general. I just see sports like every other investment of my time and money... if there isn't sufficient return on the investment, I don't make as much of an investment. There hasn't been the return in the last 15 years, so my investment of time has been much less.

I do not have faith or trust in other people. Not Joe Gibbs. Not my relatives or friends. Nobody other than myself. In ME I trust. All others must prove it.

Gibbs legacy now includes coming out of retirement and taking spurriers mess to a losing record and then taking HIS first year squad to the playoffs with a depleted and injured offense. if your argument that any season without winning the SB is a losing one how is it that you havent killed yourself already? seriously, if that really is how you feel how can you not be excited about the team showing so much promise and potential in reaching your lofty standard? you truly are a typing contradiction.

Gibbs' legacy now includes coming out of retirement, enduring a losing season, backing into the playoffs and losing in the second round. That's it. Don't go whining about a depleted offense and everything else. Injuries happen. Great teams succeed in spite of them. Mediocre teams deal with them. Bad teams use them as an excuse.

As for why I haven't killed myself... generally I take the frustration out on inanimate objects, though I've done myself physical harm over losses in the past (generally foot and hand injuries from kicking/punching stationary objects). I don't get excited about potential or promise. I get excited about RESULTS. If you see that as a contradiction, that's your problem not mine.

listen, you obviously HATE parity and the SC, great so do most. but stop focusing on the "why we are where we are?" because WE ARE ALREADY THERE. there is nothing to be done about it. and it doesnt fit into the debate.

I have to disagree. Most people seem more than willing to move along like the nice little sheep that they are and accept the SC/Parity system currently in place. Why we are where we are is at the heart of the whole problem with the system, and the reason that it will be very difficult for a team (Redskins or otherwise) to ever match the grandeur of that 1991 Redskins team.

the debate is between you and i, not you and the owners. i wasnt even complaining about the cap i was simply pointing out the differences in the two eras and why they cant be compared. one would think that if you were so adamantly against parity you would see this perspective.

Agian, I have to disagree. The eras are comparable because the GAME hasn't changed. It's still 4 downs, a 100 yard field with 10 yard endzones at the end, etc... It's the BUSINESS that has changed. When it became more important to have a top notch Capologist on the team than a top-notch 2nd QB, this sport lost something that it may never be able to regain... its soul. Of course the business end of things has rapidly deminished the quality of the game, but that's something the teams have to deal with if they want to ever be seen as comparable to the teams of the prior era.

If Dan Snyder was really interested in building this into a GREAT franchise again, as he has repeatedly claimed; he would have voted against the extension of the CBA. The owners have put the block in place and their legacy should be one of incompetence and inferior teams because of it.

again, the reason you even have a standard of greatness to hold Skins teams is JOE freakin GIBBS. understand? without him you would have no mark by which to measure anything.

Without Joe Gibbs, I wouldn't be a Redskins fan to begin with. I grew up in Connecticut, not the DC area. I always believed Gibbs to be a coaching GOD. At least until he decided to make this comeback. He's like that prize fighter who comes back years later for one last shot at the title, only to prove he can't make it in the new style of boxing the younger fighters use. I love the original Joe Gibbs legacy. That's why I don't want to see him tarnish it with a 4 or 5 year comeback where he ends up with a losing record.

sorry for your tuff luck but it aint gonna happen. so get over it and have some faith in the guy that built every championship team we ever had. stop waiting for him to prove something to you and recognize that it is already happening in front of us. do you really think a team that had mostly played together one year, with one WR, a banged up RB, injured QB and other key injuries down the stretch should have won five in a row to make the playoffs?

As I said before, I don't have faith or trust in anyone. I expect results and if they're not there, I'm going to say it. The results haven't been there in the first two years of the Joe Gibbs Mk II era. It's that simple. I'm just hoping that Joe realizes this and gets out before he becomes a laughingstock.

willing to deal with??? i really wish i could fill your glass all the way up so there would be no question as to its volume. however you have proven that impossible so you will have to find a way to accomplish that on your own.

Sorry, that cup doesn't have a "full" mark. Nor should it ever.

[onedrop]

I have something to prove? After a decade and a half of living though worthless season after worthless season, I have something to prove? If you say so, sunshine.

i said, again RIF, you have more to prove than Gibbs.

I do sound very fairweather. That's how a lot of people look at my view of sports in general. I just see sports like every other investment of my time and money... if there isn't sufficient return on the investment, I don't make as much of an investment. There hasn't been the return in the last 15 years, so my investment of time has been much less.

yep fairweather. the worst kind of fan. so now that Gibbs has a winning season you are invloved again but only to the point where you insult him and complain that he hasnt won a SB yet? listen up buddy this team doesnt owe you jack, nor do you or i owe it anything. we choose to give our undying support and hope they do the best they can to make us proud. its that simple. Gibbs is the best man to get that job done.

I do not have faith or trust in other people. Not Joe Gibbs. Not my relatives or friends. Nobody other than myself. In ME I trust. All others must prove it.

sucks to be you. hope you never make any mistakes big boy. i for one know my family and friends will always be there for me as i will be for them. see thats called trust. same with the Skins. they did for us so....through the lean years i was at every game possible no matter what the record. screaming my head off. still wearing the B&G with pride no matter how much smack talking had to be endured. meanwhile you "werent as invloved".

Gibbs' legacy now includes coming out of retirement, enduring a losing season, backing into the playoffs and losing in the second round. That's it. Don't go whining about a depleted offense and everything else. Injuries happen. Great teams succeed in spite of them. Mediocre teams deal with them. Bad teams use them as an excuse.

spin it all you want, are you sure youre a Skins fan? the 2004 season was spurriers team. you dont win 5 in a row and "back" into the playoffs. this team did overcome, maybe you just werent involved again to see it.

As for why I haven't killed myself... generally I take the frustration out on inanimate objects, though I've done myself physical harm over losses in the past (generally foot and hand injuries from kicking/punching stationary objects). I don't get excited about potential or promise. I get excited about RESULTS. If you see that as a contradiction, that's your problem not mine.

so you are a bandwagoner as well as fairweather?

I have to disagree. Most people seem more than willing to move along like the nice little sheep that they are and accept the SC/Parity system currently in place. Why we are where we are is at the heart of the whole problem with the system, and the reason that it will be very difficult for a team (Redskins or otherwise) to ever match the grandeur of that 1991 Redskins team.

still dont get it do ya? IT IS WHAT IT IS. stop crying about 1991 and hope that the 2006 Skins can be as grand as they can be. grander, better, tighter and more successful than anyother team in the NFL. THAT is what will win the SB not running around boo-hooing about the owners ruining this and that. get over it.

Agian, I have to disagree. The eras are comparable because the GAME hasn't changed. It's still 4 downs, a 100 yard field with 10 yard endzones at the end, etc... It's the BUSINESS that has changed. When it became more important to have a top notch Capologist on the team than a top-notch 2nd QB, this sport lost something that it may never be able to regain... its soul. Of course the business end of things has rapidly deminished the quality of the game, but that's something the teams have to deal with if they want to ever be seen as comparable to the teams of the prior era.

okay now youve lost me. you disagree because the "game" hasnt changed but the business side of things has "diminished the quality" of the game. pick a stance and stick to it. if the cap era diminished the game then its a different game no matter the size of the field. chess and checkers are both played on the exact same "field" but we all know one is infinitely harder than the other and takes a brighter mind to win.

If Dan Snyder was really interested in building this into a GREAT franchise again, as he has repeatedly claimed; he would have voted against the extension of the CBA. The owners have put the block in place and their legacy should be one of incompetence and inferior teams because of it.

you really need to go back and research this. we needed the money to get and pay the guys Gibbs wanted. to create the team in the style that has always worked for him. again, stop crying about the league and realize what the Skins do and why.

Without Joe Gibbs, I wouldn't be a Redskins fan to begin with. I grew up in Connecticut, not the DC area. I always believed Gibbs to be a coaching GOD. At least until he decided to make this comeback. He's like that prize fighter who comes back years later for one last shot at the title, only to prove he can't make it in the new style of boxing the younger fighters use. I love the original Joe Gibbs legacy. That's why I don't want to see him tarnish it with a 4 or 5 year comeback where he ends up with a losing record.

without Gibbs you wouldnt be a Skins fan but now you have no faith in him? if he inspired you once you should be be even more so now because of all the PROOF the man has provided over the years. what is it about this that you do not understand?

As I said before, I don't have faith or trust in anyone. I expect results and if they're not there, I'm going to say it. The results haven't been there in the first two years of the Joe Gibbs Mk II era. It's that simple. I'm just hoping that Joe realizes this and gets out before he becomes a laughingstock.

as i said, sucks to be you. it sometimes takes longer than one year to show results. we saw the beggining of those results last year. its only going to get better. sorry that you are blind to this.

the only laughingstock is the one you are making out of yourself by talking about our HOF the way you are and have.

Sorry, that cup doesn't have a "full" mark. Nor should it ever.

i sure hope that you hold yourself to the same standard as you hold everyone else. and sure you can say that you do. but unlike Joe Gibbs and the Washington Redskins your stats, accomplishments and failures arent reported on for the world to see so we will never know.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

i said, again RIF, you have more to prove than Gibbs.

That's fine, if you want to believe that. You just have to realize that I couldn't care any less what you or anyone else think of me or how you see me. I know who and what I am and that's not going to change.

yep fairweather. the worst kind of fan. so now that Gibbs has a winning season you are invloved again but only to the point where you insult him and complain that he hasnt won a SB yet? listen up buddy this team doesnt owe you jack, nor do you or i owe it anything. we choose to give our undying support and hope they do the best they can to make us proud. its that simple. Gibbs is the best man to get that job done.

so you are a bandwagoner as well as fairweather?

Actually, this whole set of comments goes directly to how I see fandom. I see fandom as a two way street. You (and I) invest a certain amount of time, energy, money, etc... into following certain sports teams. Obviously you have more of those things to invest since you don't seem as interested in the return on those investments. Whereas when I put the investments in, I expect to see a return on them. In the relatively short term. So, as far as I am concerned, yes the team does owe me (and you) something for the investment that we put into following them.

I wouldn't call it bandwagoning. You won't ever see me as "Mass_DolphinsFan" or "Mass_BroncosFan" on some other message board. Obviously you may see it differently. That's your problem, not mine.

sucks to be you. hope you never make any mistakes big boy. i for one know my family and friends will always be there for me as i will be for them. see thats called trust. same with the Skins. they did for us so....through the lean years i was at every game possible no matter what the record. screaming my head off. still wearing the B&G with pride no matter how much smack talking had to be endured. meanwhile you "werent as invloved".

If/When I make mistakes I expect to pay the price for them. Whether that means being fired from my job, arrested and jailed, or whatever other punishment may come. That's called personal responsibility.

Living in New England makes attending games a little difficult. Generally during the lean years I would pull up the gamecast online or turn the game on the tv if it happened to be on here and pay attention until it became obvious that they were out of it. Then I went on with more constructive and useful pursuits. I've never understood the people (like you apparantly) who can sit there and watch the team you're rooting for lose while still cheering and yelling. I'm not saying your way of doing things is wrong. Just that I've never understood it. Maybe it's because I'm the eternal pessimist.

spin it all you want, are you sure youre a Skins fan? the 2004 season was spurriers team. you dont win 5 in a row and "back" into the playoffs. this team did overcome, maybe you just werent involved again to see it.

Yes, I am a Skins fan. I'm just a different style than you are. I'm the sort of fan who follows the team but isn't going to waste huge amounts of time, money and energy getting completely involved with a team that I know isn't going to give me any return on that investment. My time and energy are worth more to me than that.

My research indicates that Joe Gibbs was the coach in 2004. If he didn't think he could do something with that team, why the heck did he bother coming back to DC? Is he some form of masochist that I wasn't aware of?

As for last year... when you have to win your last five games to even get into the playoffs, you backed in so far as I am concerned. The last quarter of the season should be where you lock up home field advantage and make sure your team is ready to dominate in the playoffs, not where you're praying to just make them.

still dont get it do ya? IT IS WHAT IT IS. stop crying about 1991 and hope that the 2006 Skins can be as grand as they can be. grander, better, tighter and more successful than anyother team in the NFL. THAT is what will win the SB not running around boo-hooing about the owners ruining this and that. get over it.

okay now youve lost me. you disagree because the "game" hasnt changed but the business side of things has "diminished the quality" of the game. pick a stance and stick to it. if the cap era diminished the game then its a different game no matter the size of the field. chess and checkers are both played on the exact same "field" but we all know one is infinitely harder than the other and takes a brighter mind to win.

What you need to realize is that I have to hold onto the belief that a team like that 1991 team CAN somehow be built in this new system or I have to stop watching football all together. Unfortunately, the NFL is probably never going to go back to being anything like it was prior to the current CBA that includes the salary cap, revenue sharing, and this idea that parity is a good thing. I disagree with that entire concept and have to hold onto some belief that the Redskins can again build a Dominant team like that 1991 team, or there is no reason for me to ever watch another game or post/read another message on this board or any other like it. If that belief ends, so does my ability to have any interest in the Redskins and thus the NFL at all.

Does that explain it a little better, even if you still don't agree with it?

you really need to go back and research this. we needed the money to get and pay the guys Gibbs wanted. to create the team in the style that has always worked for him. again, stop crying about the league and realize what the Skins do and why.

As I said earlier, I would have been more than willing to lose every game last year to get rid of the system we currently have in place. I look at it as losing a battle to win the war. I understand why Snyder did what he did. I just also completely disagree with him for having done it.

without Gibbs you wouldnt be a Skins fan but now you have no faith in him? if he inspired you once you should be be even more so now because of all the PROOF the man has provided over the years. what is it about this that you do not understand?

It's not so much that he inspired me as the fact that he took the team and turned them into winners that I respected and adored about Joe Gibbs. It was the way he got the team together to go out there and beat the other teams. It's his RESULTS, not necessarily his methods that I felt made him a star coach. Unfortunately this time around he hasn't been able to reproduce the results.

the only laughingstock is the one you are making out of yourself by talking about our HOF the way you are and have.

If that's the way you feel, I suggest using the ignore feature because my views and opinions don't change very often, if ever. I'm like that broken record that just keeps repeating the same things. That stone wall that doesn't budge no matter how many times you bang your head against it.

[whatmeworry]

The problems:

First, '91 skins had one of the best O-Line's of all time. Seriously, watch some of those videoes and clock how long Mark Rypien took to throw the ball.

Sceond, '91 skins weren't just assembled. It was Clark Monk and Sanders 6th year together on the team, as opposed to Moss, who's only been with the team for a year, and Lloyd and ARE who just joined the team.

If the offensive line can step up to epic levels, and our offense can get some chemistry going, then maybe we can be dominant, but I don't think this team can really be compared to the '91 Skins just yet.

I agree with this. Potential doesn't always equal results. Think Rypien got sacked a grand total of nine times that year. On the plus side the OL has had a year to gel and should be that much better this year.

[whatmeworry]

skinny, you did not misread my prior postings. I am ABSOLUTELY serious about the fact that Joe Gibbs' inclusion in the National Football League Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio should be reviewed pending the outcome of his return to the sidelines. Joe Gibbs VOLUNTARILY returned to the league. Nobody forced him to sign the contract Dan Snyder put in front of him. He voluntarily returned to a league so totally ***-backwards that I really thought he'd be here one year and run for the hills. He has had every opportunity to jump ship, and he hasn't.

No offense but this is really silly. Three Super Bowls with three different QBs AND three different RBs. This will NEVER be done again. That's like saying if Michael Jordan came out of retirement and only averaged 15 ppg he should be kicked out.

[illone]

Generally during the lean years I would pull up the gamecast online or turn the game on the tv if it happened to be on here and pay attention until it became obvious that they were out of it.

Damn, so when exactly did you hear about the two Moss tds in the Dallas game?

Next morning?

Sportscenter?

Following week when you noticed our record was 2-0 instead of 1-1?:laugh:

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Damn, so when exactly did you hear about the two Moss tds in the Dallas game?

Next morning? Sportscenter? Following week when you noticed our record was 2-0 instead of 1-1?:laugh:

Actually, I happened to be up very late that evening/morning working on a project and I had the game on in the background mostly as white noise to help me stay awake so I knew about it when it happened. Normally it would have been the next morning when I heard the score on the radio driving to work.

[onedrop]

That's fine, if you want to believe that. You just have to realize that I couldn't care any less what you or anyone else think of me or how you see me. I know who and what I am and that's not going to change.

good. be your own man.

Actually, this whole set of comments goes directly to how I see fandom. I see fandom as a two way street. You (and I) invest a certain amount of time, energy, money, etc... into following certain sports teams. Obviously you have more of those things to invest since you don't seem as interested in the return on those investments. Whereas when I put the investments in, I expect to see a return on them. In the relatively short term. So, as far as I am concerned, yes the team does owe me (and you) something for the investment that we put into following them.

using your same "two way street" argument. the team expects you to be as dedicated when they lose as when they are winning. after all they are the ones risking bodily injury and investing their time to perfect their craft so you have a team to watch. as YOU said, it goes both ways. you problem is you only see it from your perspective. you want to have your cake and eat it too.

I wouldn't call it bandwagoning. You won't ever see me as "Mass_DolphinsFan" or "Mass_BroncosFan" on some other message board. Obviously you may see it differently. That's your problem, not mine.

you dont have to have another team to be a bandwagoner. you simply have to only like the team or pay attnetion when they are winning. as you stated that you do.

If/When I make mistakes I expect to pay the price for them. Whether that means being fired from my job, arrested and jailed, or whatever other punishment may come. That's called personal responsibility.

i agree. but if you took over an office tomorrow that had been run by monkeys it would take you more than a week to get things in order. and probably more than a few to make it profitable again.

Living in New England makes attending games a little difficult. Generally during the lean years I would pull up the gamecast online or turn the game on the tv if it happened to be on here and pay attention until it became obvious that they were out of it. Then I went on with more constructive and useful pursuits. I've never understood the people (like you apparantly) who can sit there and watch the team you're rooting for lose while still cheering and yelling. I'm not saying your way of doing things is wrong. Just that I've never understood it. Maybe it's because I'm the eternal pessimist.

because people like me know that when Joe Gibbs is on the sidelines his team wont quit. sure they might get beat even beatdown but they wont roll over and die. because people like me watched the entire game last year, week 2 while you probably gave up on the Skins and "did something else". people like me said we could still make the playoffs when we were 5-6. while the "experts" and people such as yourself said "no way in hell".

while you were, in a way, happy and displeased at the same time due to your eternal pessimism. i and those like me were rewarded with joy and happiniess because of our faith.

Yes, I am a Skins fan. I'm just a different style than you are. I'm the sort of fan who follows the team but isn't going to waste huge amounts of time, money and energy getting completely involved with a team that I know isn't going to give me any return on that investment. My time and energy are worth more to me than that.

the fact that you "know" the Skins arent going to win stops you from being a real fan. it makes you an uncommited observer. you like the Skins but yet are unwilling to really choose sides. that is why you go on and on about the owners and the league. because that war is an easy one to choose up sides for. Gibbs did it before, he will do it again. hell he already is. its okay,join us Redskins faithful. believe in our coach, beleive in our team.

My research indicates that Joe Gibbs was the coach in 2004. If he didn't think he could do something with that team, why the heck did he bother coming back to DC? Is he some form of masochist that I wasn't aware of?

Gibbs knew they werent going anywhere in 2004, so did everyone else. all the "experts" said it would take at least 3 years to get above .500. last year was a success. Gibbs came back to save our franchise from the hell that it had fallen into. he had the courage to put his reputation on the line to save the Skins. if he just wanted to coach again he could have pulled a parcells and gone on to coach any other team and risked his legacy MUCH less.

Joe Gibbs came back to his franchise to build HIS type of team. he risked all that he has already proven to bring us back. us fans have nothing to lose, the Skins already sucked. we owe Gibbs not only for what he did in the past but for what he is risking so we can have a winning team again, for all the hours he puts in to this team. for all the time he and the other coaches spend away from their family and friends so i can enjoy their hardwork with mine.

As for last year... when you have to win your last five games to even get into the playoffs, you backed in so far as I am concerned. The last quarter of the season should be where you lock up home field advantage and make sure your team is ready to dominate in the playoffs, not where you're praying to just make them.

the true heart of a champion isnt proven by never being knocked down. its is proven by having the courage to get back up and go the distance. sure we were in a hole. but we pulled together when we had to to get the job done. we proved the critics wrong. our Skins werent going to roll ever and lose to the gnats who has spanked us 36-0 or to the cowpukes who said that week 2 was a fluke and wanted revenge. its easy to win when youre the biggest, strongest kid on the block. but winning with determination, character and resolve shows true heart.

What you need to realize is that I have to hold onto the belief that a team like that 1991 team CAN somehow be built in this new system or I have to stop watching football all together. Unfortunately, the NFL is probably never going to go back to being anything like it was prior to the current CBA that includes the salary cap, revenue sharing, and this idea that parity is a good thing. I disagree with that entire concept and have to hold onto some belief that the Redskins can again build a Dominant team like that 1991 team, or there is no reason for me to ever watch another game or post/read another message on this board or any other like it. If that belief ends, so does my ability to have any interest in the Redskins and thus the NFL at all.

Does that explain it a little better, even if you still don't agree with it?

As I said earlier, I would have been more than willing to lose every game last year to get rid of the system we currently have in place. I look at it as losing a battle to win the war. I understand why Snyder did what he did. I just also completely disagree with him for having done it.

It's not so much that he inspired me as the fact that he took the team and turned them into winners that I respected and adored about Joe Gibbs. It was the way he got the team together to go out there and beat the other teams. It's his RESULTS, not necessarily his methods that I felt made him a star coach. Unfortunately this time around he hasn't been able to reproduce the results.

do you remember Joe Gibbs first season ever as the Skins headcoach? you cant enjoy the way Gibbs "got the team together" and not enjoy his methods. they are one and the same. on the same hand if you plan on enjoying the results understand the methods and enjoy the ride not just the destination. it makes the end result so much sweeter.

as for repeating the first go round i refer you to the record itself.

If that's the way you feel, I suggest using the ignore feature because my views and opinions don't change very often, if ever. I'm like that broken record that just keeps repeating the same things. That stone wall that doesn't budge no matter how many times you bang your head against it.

that which does not bend, breaks.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

using your same "two way street" argument. the team expects you to be as dedicated when they lose as when they are winning. after all they are the ones risking bodily injury and investing their time to perfect their craft so you have a team to watch. as YOU said, it goes both ways. you problem is you only see it from your perspective. you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Obviously we're not going to agree on this part so I'll make my final comment on it and we can just agree to disagree. I do my part by paying attention to the news and information during the week and by turning the game on; whether it's on the tv or on the internet. At that point it is up to the players and coaches as to whether they want to honor that level of investment with one of their own. Once it becomes obvious that they're not returning the investment, I see no need to invest further in what is obviously a losing proposition. Whereas it would seem that you are like a gambler constantly mortgaging their home on the hope that one lucky roll of the dice will win back the entire investment you've already lost. That's not my style.

you dont have to have another team to be a bandwagoner. you simply have to only like the team or pay attnetion when they are winning. as you stated that you do.

If that's the way you see it, I will wear the title proudly.

i agree. but if you took over an office tomorrow that had been run by monkeys it would take you more than a week to get things in order. and probably more than a few to make it profitable again.

That's the difference between us. I wouldn't be very likely to accept a position to take over that sort of office. I definitely wouldn't accept it without the ability to walk in, immediately fire everyone on the spot and rebuild from the ground up on day #1. You can't do that in the NFL anymore though.

because people like me know that when Joe Gibbs is on the sidelines his team wont quit. sure they might get beat even beatdown but they wont roll over and die. because people like me watched the entire game last year, week 2 while you probably gave up on the Skins and "did something else". people like me said we could still make the playoffs when we were 5-6. while the "experts" and people such as yourself said "no way in hell".

while you were, in a way, happy and displeased at the same time due to your eternal pessimism. i and those like me were rewarded with joy and happiniess because of our faith.

Actually, as I commented earlier, by chance I did get to see the end of the first Dallas game. I was up working on a totally unrelated project and had the game on in the background. Yes, there is a mix of reactions when I have to turn a game off or give up on a season. Part of me gets really upset and tends to break things. Part of me wonders why I even bothered thinking they could win in the first place. Another part is pleased that I'm no longer paying attention to them since they don't deserve that investment of time and energy.

the fact that you "know" the Skins arent going to win stops you from being a real fan. it makes you an uncommited observer. you like the Skins but yet are unwilling to really choose sides. that is why you go on and on about the owners and the league. because that war is an easy one to choose up sides for. Gibbs did it before, he will do it again. hell he already is. its okay,join us Redskins faithful. believe in our coach, beleive in our team.

Sorry, faith and trust are two things I don't get involved in anymore. Especially when it comes to sports. I got been burned way too many times in my youth to go down that road ever again. The idea that I could ever have faith or trust in any team or player again died forever with Bill ****ing Buckner and the collapse of my (then) beloved Boston Red Sox on a Friday night in October of 1986. I was 12 years old at the time and was allowed to stay up late that night to watch the Red Sox win their first World Series in decades. I cried myself to sleep later that night and didn't even bother watching Game 7. I knew it was a foregone conclusion. My lack of faith was upheld by the Bruins in the 1988 and 1990 Stanley Cup finals. In fact, if it weren't for the Redskins, I wouldn't have had a successful sports rooting (or playing) interest until high school.

Joe Gibbs came back to his franchise to build HIS type of team.

Unfortunately the more and more I see of the team Joe is building, the more I wonder if HIS type of team is something I'm really going to be able to root for. Parts of this team look scarily similar to the New England Patriots teams from the last half decade. A team that is the poster child for everything wrong with this league. I really hope I am wrong and that I'm seeing things that aren't really there.

the true heart of a champion isnt proven by never being knocked down. its is proven by having the courage to get back up and go the distance. sure we were in a hole. but we pulled together when we had to to get the job done. we proved the critics wrong. our Skins werent going to roll ever and lose to the gnats who has spanked us 36-0 or to the cowpukes who said that week 2 was a fluke and wanted revenge. its easy to win when youre the biggest, strongest kid on the block. but winning with determination, character and resolve shows true heart.

I've been through this one before. I'm guessing that you haven't read my comments on the difference between "Winning" and "Not Losing". I've never been a huge fan of competition or fair fights. I look for every advantage possible and don't get involved when the advantage isn't in my favor. Life isn't about competition, determination, character, resolve, or heart so far as I am concerned. It's about Winning. Dominating and decimating your opponent every time. I'll step off the soapbox now.

do you remember Joe Gibbs first season ever as the Skins headcoach? you cant enjoy the way Gibbs "got the team together" and not enjoy his methods. they are one and the same. on the same hand if you plan on enjoying the results understand the methods and enjoy the ride not just the destination. it makes the end result so much sweeter.

I was seven at the time and lived hundreds of miles from Washington DC, so no not really. I have read and heard a lot about it since then however. If I had been in JKC's shoes, Joe wouldn't have even survived to give his famous "If you want to fire me, I understand." quote when the team started 0-5. He probably would have been gone at 0-3.

that which does not bend, breaks.

It's better to break than to bend to a wind that does not have righteousness behind it.

[onedrop]

Obviously we're not going to agree on this part so I'll make my final comment on it and we can just agree to disagree. I do my part by paying attention to the news and information during the week and by turning the game on; whether it's on the tv or on the internet. At that point it is up to the players and coaches as to whether they want to honor that level of investment with one of their own. Once it becomes obvious that they're not returning the investment, I see no need to invest further in what is obviously a losing proposition. Whereas it would seem that you are like a gambler constantly mortgaging their home on the hope that one lucky roll of the dice will win back the entire investment you've already lost. That's not my style.

if thats the way you feel about it then they owe you nothing either. if you arent willing to commit to the team you cant at the same time expect them to perform for you. as you stated. its a two way street. but i do see what you mean when youcompared yourself to a broken record.

If that's the way you see it, I will wear the title proudly.

that is your perogative. i could never be such.

That's the difference between us. I wouldn't be very likely to accept a position to take over that sort of office. I definitely wouldn't accept it without the ability to walk in, immediately fire everyone on the spot and rebuild from the ground up on day #1. You can't do that in the NFL anymore though.

what do you think 2004 and some of 2005 was all about for Gibbs? getting his guys in and others out.

Actually, as I commented earlier, by chance I did get to see the end of the first Dallas game. I was up working on a totally unrelated project and had the game on in the background. Yes, there is a mix of reactions when I have to turn a game off or give up on a season. Part of me gets really upset and tends to break things. Part of me wonders why I even bothered thinking they could win in the first place. Another part is pleased that I'm no longer paying attention to them since they don't deserve that investment of time and energy.

but as you also said you normally would have turned the game off. if you are seriously breaking things maybe you shouldnt watch any type of contests.

Sorry, faith and trust are two things I don't get involved in anymore. Especially when it comes to sports. I got been burned way too many times in my youth to go down that road ever again. The idea that I could ever have faith or trust in any team or player again died forever with Bill ****ing Buckner and the collapse of my (then) beloved Boston Red Sox on a Friday night in October of 1986. I was 12 years old at the time and was allowed to stay up late that night to watch the Red Sox win their first World Series in decades. I cried myself to sleep later that night and didn't even bother watching Game 7. I knew it was a foregone conclusion. My lack of faith was upheld by the Bruins in the 1988 and 1990 Stanley Cup finals. In fact, if it weren't for the Redskins, I wouldn't have had a successful sports rooting (or playing) interest until high school.

yeah but what about the greatest upset in sports history, when the sox anti-swept the yankees? did you enjoy that? how do you think the faithful felt? the reason sports are enjoyable is because we can be ecstatic, we can be letdown. we can put as much faith, heart and energy into as we want and in the end if our team loses we as individuals dont actually lose anything. other than a bit of pride which goes away shortly and of course some money if you are a betting man. but the point is it gives us fans a feeling of being a part of the heat of battle without the risk of injury whether bodily or to true psyche.

Unfortunately the more and more I see of the team Joe is building, the more I wonder if HIS type of team is something I'm really going to be able to root for. Parts of this team look scarily similar to the New England Patriots teams from the last half decade. A team that is the poster child for everything wrong with this league. I really hope I am wrong and that I'm seeing things that aren't really there.

worry not. you are wrong. this is a Joe Gibbs football squad. csae closed. whatever you are seeing it is through your fear, anger and hatred of the league and or pats thats causing it. if you had lived here and been a true diehard you would know what im talking about. being a casual observer you are a bit blinded to it. those of us that remember the first Gibbs tenure know what is coming. because weve seen it before and recognize it when it approaches.

I've been through this one before. I'm guessing that you haven't read my comments on the difference between "Winning" and "Not Losing". I've never been a huge fan of competition or fair fights. I look for every advantage possible and don't get involved when the advantage isn't in my favor. Life isn't about competition, determination, character, resolve, or heart so far as I am concerned. It's about Winning. Dominating and decimating your opponent every time. I'll step off the soapbox now.

as i said, maybe sports isnt for you. be like kramer and join an all kids karate class if you want to ensure domination. i want the best every opponent has to offer so there is no doubt who the better team and coach is.

i am sorry to say this but if you only get involved when you have the clear advantage you are scared. out of this entire debate that is by far the weakest thing you have said. with that attitude there is never to be chance of valor or glory. but from what you have said im sure these words mean little to you.

by your standards the Skins should have rolled over when we were 5-6. the advantage of making the playoffs clearly wasnt ours. the fact that we did brought glory to the team. overcoming and winning when the odds are against you is what legends are made of.

I was seven at the time and lived hundreds of miles from Washington DC, so no not really. I have read and heard a lot about it since then however. If I had been in JKC's shoes, Joe wouldn't have even survived to give his famous "If you want to fire me, I understand." quote when the team started 0-5. He probably would have been gone at 0-3.

It's better to break than to bend to a wind that does not have righteousness behind it.

really? i have been talking about character, faith, trust, faithfulness, homor and glory. your responses have been about not trusting, never having faith in sports, friends or family. youve talked about being too letdown, breaking things, being unwavering and discord.

which set of words do you believe are more in line with righteousness?

[CHUBAKAH]

Wow, today I learned that not only are there bandwagon fans in the stadium, but we have them right here on Extreme. Who wadda thunk it.

Down in front...

[chris@m212.com]

we are stacked for sure!

[Mass_SkinsFan]

if thats the way you feel about it then they owe you nothing either. if you arent willing to commit to the team you cant at the same time expect them to perform for you. as you stated. its a two way street. but i do see what you mean when you compared yourself to a broken record.

So be it. Obviously we are going to have to agree to disagree on this topic. I am guessing you haven't seen a whole lot of my posts or the broken record thing would have been well known to you before this point in time.

what do you think 2004 and some of 2005 was all about for Gibbs? getting his guys in and others out.

I'm talking about walking into the locker room the day after signing the contract to coach the team and releasing every single player and coach. Cutting the entire team, which is not possible in the NFL currently because of the salary cap. I'm talking about doing the changover in a matter of hours, not over a couple years.

but as you also said you normally would have turned the game off. if you are seriously breaking things maybe you shouldnt watch any type of contests.

Which is why I generally turn things off when they start to go badly. I spent about three hours in the ER with a severely bruised foot after the US Men's Soccer team tied Italy a week and a half ago. I kicked a door that I thought was slightly open. Turned out it wasn't. The door won and my foot lost.

yeah but what about the greatest upset in sports history, when the sox anti-swept the yankees? did you enjoy that? how do you think the faithful felt? the reason sports are enjoyable is because we can be ecstatic, we can be letdown. we can put as much faith, heart and energy into as we want and in the end if our team loses we as individuals dont actually lose anything. other than a bit of pride which goes away shortly and of course some money if you are a betting man. but the point is it gives us fans a feeling of being a part of the heat of battle without the risk of injury whether bodily or to true psyche.

Actually, I gave up on the Red Sox and stopped watching the series when they went down three games to none. The faithful my backside. The loony toons you mean. There's nobody in their right mind who would have put money on that sort of occurance happening.

Unfortunately your description of what a fan invests and gets in return is not the way that I view sports and never has been. I take it personally. Every time. It's just my nature.

worry not. you are wrong. this is a Joe Gibbs football squad. csae closed. whatever you are seeing it is through your fear, anger and hatred of the league and or pats thats causing it. if you had lived here and been a true diehard you would know what im talking about. being a casual observer you are a bit blinded to it. those of us that remember the first Gibbs tenure know what is coming. because weve seen it before and recognize it when it approaches.

I'm still concerned that the way the Patriots built those teams might be very similar to the way Gibbs built those original teams and I just somehow forgoy that. I really hope you're right because if not, there's nothing more for me to pay attention to in the NFL at all.

as i said, maybe sports isnt for you. be like kramer and join an all kids karate class if you want to ensure domination. i want the best every opponent has to offer so there is no doubt who the better team and coach is.

be like who? We're not going to agree on that topic so there's no point in even discussing it.

i am sorry to say this but if you only get involved when you have the clear advantage you are scared. out of this entire debate that is by far the weakest thing you have said. with that attitude there is never to be chance of valor or glory. but from what you have said im sure these words mean little to you.

Actually to a certain degree you're right. I HATE to lose. I'd rather not be involved in an event than to run the risk of losing the vast majority of the time. The valor and glory that I involve myself with you probably wouldn't understand as it comes at the business end of a 34" stick of rattan, but that's for a different conversation.

by your standards the Skins should have rolled over when we were 5-6. the advantage of making the playoffs clearly wasnt ours. the fact that we did brought glory to the team. overcoming and winning when the odds are against you is what legends are made of.

Again, we're going to disagree, so there's little point in discussing it. Should they have rolled over, NO. Should they have been in that position in the first place, NO. The fact that the Redskins did still make the playoffs speaks as much to the mediocrity and parity in the league as it does to any glorious cavalry charge by the Redskins themselves.

really? i have been talking about character, faith, trust, faithfulness, honor and glory. your responses have been about not trusting, never having faith in sports, friends or family. you've talked about being too letdown, breaking things, being unwavering and discord.

which set of words do you believe are more in line with righteousness?

Maybe righteousness was not the best word for me to use. I couldn't come up with a better one at the time. Let me try and put it another way, more in line with the topic we've been discussing....

I would rather see a team I root for lose every game of every season for the rest of eternity than to win even a single game by use of a strategy or system that I believe to be unacceptable.

[onedrop]

I'd rather not be involved in an event than to run the risk of losing the vast majority of the time.

I would rather see a team I root for lose every game of every season for the rest of eternity than to win even a single game by use of a strategy or system that I believe to be unacceptable.

you say these two things in this post and that you would rather win by any means neccessary in another, fair or not in another.

sorry my friend but you are one big contradiction. you dont care hwta it takes to win even unfair advantages but the way a team is built is of the upmost importance. makes no sense.

i consider this discussion closed. thanks for your time.