Can you prove God exists???

[techboy]

That's a pretty surprising misrepresentation of everything I've been saying in this thread for a week.

I don't think so. I believe you when you say you're an agnostic, and that you don't know whether or not any particular God or gods exist.

However, your question began with the assumption that the alien life evolved, not in God's image (looking like man), and with no knowledge of the Christian God. This implicitly makes the assumption that the Christian God doesn't exist, because you assume that these aliens would have no knowledge of God, you assume that they would not be in His image, and you assume that they would have had no revelation. You are begging the question.

For the record, yes, such a species would make me question my faith. How could it not? It's not a fair question, though.

As to the question of whether or not life on other planets would make me question my faith, without placing undue anti-God assumptions on that species' nature, then no, it would not. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that God did not create life on other planets. Who am I to declare what God can and cannot, and will and will not, do, beyond what He has Himself revealed?

[GaryClark4Canton]

Oh, come on, Om. You're starting with the assumption that the Christian God doesn't exist, using that assumption to postulate an alien species that doesn't know Him (because He doesn't exist), and then asking "wouldn't that shake your faith in God?"

Well, OF COURSE, if you start with the assumption that God doesn't exist this race would disprove God.

I could play the same game with you. I know God exists, because he has revealed Himself to us. It is logical to assume that if He revealed Himself to us, He would reveal Himself to the alien race as well. Wouldn't it shake your agnosticism if an alien race showed up talking about God?

I think the only fair way to frame such a question is to not make any assumptions. Just say there's life on other planets. In that limited case, it would not necessarily have an impact, positive or negative, on the Christian faith. Assuming other factors (either contrary to or supporting God) is begging the question.

Well said. I believe you parried the aliens vs. christian game successfully.

It's obvious that the mystery of man's origin has been debated for thousand's of years and who knows maybe this thread will play it's part in squashing that debate once and for all... or at the very least it is thoroughly entertaining.

At any rate, Techboy, want to thank you for posting your summary on what you believe the bible says regarding whether or not a rapist or a model citizen will go to hell. You've inspired me to reread my copy of Mere Christianity.

GC

[Xameil]

I would hope that if an alien species without any previous contact with us showed up talking about Jesus, that an agnostic would at least take note. He might eventually conclude that said knowledge was based entirely on re-runs of the "700 Club" floating through space right now (I prefer not to think about the fact that if there are alien species, their first impressions of us will be through TV), but I'd hope he'd at least stop and think about it.

well yes i would imagine an agnostic would take note, but that's where I say the difference would be. The agnostic takes note, and I'd imagine re-think. Whereas the Uber....takes note and tells them they are going to hell for not believing in the one true God.

[GaryClark4Canton]

There are "extreme" cases on both sides of the coin. Everything isn't as black and white as you make it seem.

GC

[Xameil]

There are "extreme" cases on both sides of the coin. Everything isn't as black and white as you make it seem.

GC

I'm not making that black and white. But an agnostics aren't usually as militant in the God does not exist. Whereas the ubers (see, I don't lump all Christians together) are. They do follow things black and white..."it is the way it was written" is a common term from them.

[GaryClark4Canton]

I'm not making that black and white. But an agnostics aren't usually as militant in the God does not exist. Whereas the ubers (see, I don't lump all Christians together) are. They do follow things black and white..."it is the way it was written" is a common term from them.

I read your statement too quickly. Once I reread it I noticed you made a distinction between the two. I tried to go back and edit my error but you beat me to it My mistake bro.

GC

[Xameil]

I read your statement too quickly. Once I reread it I noticed you made a distinction between the two. I tried to go back and edit my error but you beat me to it My mistake bro.

GC

no prob.

[Zguy28]

I'm glad this came up. When I asked folks to "define God" earlier in the thread, I was wondering if anyone would suggest the idea that it could be defined simply as the most advanced (evolved?) life form in the known universe. That's a working definition I've been comfortable with for a long time.

If there are as many other life forms out there as I suspect, and one among them is then, by some agreed standard, the "most advanced," perhaps even farmers/scientist themselves who plant the seeds of Life on promising planets they find, such as Earth perhaps ... are they "God?"

You mean like on Star Trek TNG episode the chase? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chase_(TNG_episode)

[Om]

I don't think so. I believe you when you say you're an agnostic, and that you don't know whether or not any particular God or gods exist.

However, your question began with the assumption that the alien life evolved, not in God's image (looking like man), and with no knowledge of the Christian God. This implicitly makes the assumption that the Christian God doesn't exist, because you assume that these aliens would have no knowledge of God, you assume that they would not be in His image, and you assume that they would have had no revelation. You are begging the question.

For the record, yes, such a species would make me question my faith. How could it not? It's not a fair question, though.

As to the question of whether or not life on other planets would make me question my faith, without placing undue anti-God assumptions on that species' nature, then no, it would not. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that God did not create life on other planets. Who am I to declare what God can and cannot, and will and will not, do, beyond what He has Himself revealed?

I've posed several questions. Please quote me the specific one you're referring to here so I can adequately respond.

[Om]

You mean like on Star Trek TNG episode the chase? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chase_(TNG_episode)

What, they stole my idea? I want royalties.

Never saw it, so I can't comment.

[BlueTalon]

Talked about this earlier. But, off the top and for starters ...

1) the Bible teaches that God "created Man in his image." If that's true, and there is other intelligent life out there, does it also look like us ... or did God decide we and we alone get His image? What makes us so special?

2) the Bible teaches that God loved Man so much he made the supreme sacrifice on our behalf---he gave us his only son, to do with what we would, then allowed men to torture and kill him. Which would seem to make man, as I said before, pretty much the apple of God's Eye, no? If there are other sentient beings out there, perhaps He does not love them as much? Or think they don't need His help as much? Would that not be a sign of favoritism, or something else equally anthropomorphic and limiting?

Or maybe it's just that Man was/is a truly special case.

Fact is I could come up with endless questions like that, some more interesting / probing than others if I took the time to really craft them ... but perhaps the better tack would be to ask Blue Talon, a man of faith who has already suggested that the discovery of alien life would indeed shake his faith, to better answer your question. On matters of faith I don't try to give answers, I simply ask questions.

Your synopsis is accurate enough to use as is, but I want to elaborate on a couple of things. One, intelligent life on other planets would not necessarily shake my faith as a creationist, because such life wouldn't by itself validate evolutionary theory, which would still have huge holes and the insurmountable pesky problem of origins. (BTW, extraterrestrial seeding does not answer that problem, it simply backs it up one generation to a previous planet.) It's as a Christian that my faith would be shaken.

Having said that, how much my faith would be shaken would depend on the nature of the discovery. Actually seeing the 7-eyed guy show up in his intergalactic corvette and hearing what he has to say about god and higher math would shake me to the core & cause me to suspend all my beliefs & re-evaluate everything, whereas some SETI person claiming to have found patterns in the white-noise static is an example of the sort of discovery about which I retain the right of full skepticism and cynicism.

You said something else that is deserving of a response, and far be it from me to allow it to remain un-addressed.

You haven’t answered the question about the whole vastness thing, and stand by the (in my eyes) seemingly illogical assumption that in all the known universe, we’re It. But you already went farther than most men of faith I’ve had this discussion with are willing to, by saying that discovery of other life in the universe would indeed shake your faith. I thank you for your candor, and will ask no more than that of you on that point.

In my biblically based opinion, two or three things account for the vastness of universe. Well, one, really. It's due simply to God's creative nature and desires. Everywhere we look in nature (most places, anyway) we see beauty. And we find it in the damned-est places, too -- like at the bottom of the ocean where sea life has vibrant colors even though colors are not visible there. To me, it's not any less reasonable (and not the least bit arrogant) to believe that those colors are there because a creative God put them there, than it is to believe that evolution put them there.

In our predominantly human world, creativity in the form of art is celebrated (that's art as in artistry, not art the ES mod). We put the Mona Lisa in an exalted place in the Musée du Louvre, for example. Now, I've never heard anyone talking about the wasted space in the Louvre or the Hermitage or the Smithsonian, but you could take the art in each one of those, put it on pallets and stack them in a warehouse, and it would take up a tiny fraction of the space represented by those museums. And why spend all that energy on making the Louvre so big and beautiful, anyway? It's not like the Mona Lisa is going to care. But Humans created the Mona Lisa in a moment of artistic expression -- humans built the Louvre for functionality, but also for artistic expression. And humans did it that way for human enjoyment.

IMO, the voorkillomishesness of the universe is simply God's artistic expression. It's something so great that even God can look at it and go "Wow! I did that? I must have been on a roll!" But it's an artistic expression that has a couple of specific purposes from our point of view. The first is to give us intellectual and curious humans something to explore and resources to use once we figure out how. The second is as a calendar/clock. Not only can astronomers do amazing calculations on historical dates etc., this is actually the reason expressly given in the Bible for its existence:

And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth."

That's an honest attempt to answer your questions. If any part of that answer strikes you as a tapdance, I'll be happy to re-phrase or re-address.

[BlueTalon]

I'm glad this came up. When I asked folks to "define God" earlier in the thread, I was wondering if anyone would suggest the idea that it could be defined simply as the most advanced (evolved?) life form in the known universe. That's a working definition I've been comfortable with for a long time.

If there are as many other life forms out there as I suspect, and one among them is then, by some agreed standard, the "most advanced," perhaps even farmers/scientist themselves who plant the seeds of Life on promising planets they find, such as Earth perhaps ... are they "God?"

It may surprise you to learn that this is almost exactly the theology of Mormonism. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teaches:

"As Man is, God once was.

As God is, man may become."

Not to be disparaging, but Mormons are trying to work their way up the ladder so that eventually they can each get their own planet where they can be the God of that planet, in the same way the JudeoChristian God is the God of this planet.

It's one of the things that sets Mormonism apart from mainstream Christianity.

[BlueTalon]

Well said. I believe you parried the aliens vs. christian game successfully.

Sounds like a fun video game!

[stevenaa]

I did answer your question, steven. You just skipped the post prior to that one where I not only gave two quite specific questions intended to iillustrate the kinds of problems I think Christianity might have to deal with given knowledge of ET life ... as well as suggesting I'm not the one to ask at this point, BT is, since as a man of faith HE says his faith would be shaken by this discovery.

What part of that answer was not responsive to you?

I saw the post. It wasn't a direct answer as to the question of what you think the discovery of ET life should/would mean to a Christian. Yours may be a simple question out of curiosity of the answer. Unfortunately, as we know, most of the questions to be found in these debates are leading questions designed to sway the outcome. Thus I was curious about your motivation for the question.

No one could argue the questions that would be raised if ET's showed up and have no spirituality or have one completely absent any knowledge or belief in the God of the bible. I'm not sure how this suppostiton has any relevance as to the question of if God exists. Making up a possbile future scenerio in which the outcome really precludes the possibility of the Christian God really fixes the answers.

And in any case, I'm not sure why you assume the same events would have to occur leading up to the arrival of Christ. Why couldn't another civilization have it's own unique set of circumstances that leads up to the coming of Christ?

[Jumbo]

That's how I felt about the late Carl Sagan. I loved the movie "Contact" though.:2cents:

An almost stunning off-kilter evaluation to me, Z, knowing the man's entire body of work and being around him personally a number of times, but to each thier own.

[Om]

Your synopsis is accurate enough to use as is, but I want to elaborate on a couple of things ....

That's an honest attempt to answer your questions. If any part of that answer strikes you as a tapdance, I'll be happy to re-phrase or re-address.

No sir, I see no tapdancing there at all. Quite the contrary, I see a very enjoyable post to read, with some thoughtful and personal observations. There are a couple of specific points that at first blush I'm tempted to question you about, but at second blush ( ? ), I'm thinking doing so would detract from your underlying message, so I won't.

You and I are not that far apart, I don't think. Given the things you're considering here---i.e., that the real question is not so much the Creation of Earth an Man, but the larger issue of whether the known universe has Intent behind it, or is simply a Big Happy Accident---it seems evident (that pesky word again) that you are not the strict biblical constructionist that most of my questions/arguments in this thread are more geared to.

Cheers.

[SUNSTONE]

If the thought that an ET would shake one's faith, then that is some weak faith.

If the lack of dinosaurs and crack cocaine in the bible effects your faith. Then you are an ignorant Christian to say the least.

[Om]

It may surprise you to learn that this is almost exactly the theology of Mormonism. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teaches:

"As Man is, God once was.

As God is, man may become."

Not to be disparaging, but Mormons are trying to work their way up the ladder so that eventually they can each get their own planet where they can be the God of that planet, in the same way the JudeoChristian God is the God of this planet.

It's one of the things that sets Mormonism apart from mainstream Christianity.

Oh man, I have to ask ...

"Not to be disparaging" implies a certain, shall we say, personal distancing from that line of thought. Can you tell me why? What is it about the idea of ascendacy that you find troubling, or at odds with your beliefs, or utlimately, any less believable?

[BlueTalon]

No sir, I see no tapdancing there at all. Quite the contrary, I see a very enjoyable post to read, with some thoughtful and personal observations. There are a couple of specific points that at first blush I'm tempted to question you about, but at second blush ( ? ), I'm thinking doing so would detract from your underlying message, so I won't.

You and I are not that far apart, I don't think. Given the things you're considering here---i.e., that the real question is not so much the Creation of Earth an Man, but the larger issue of whether the known universe has Intent behind it, or is simply a Big Happy Accident---it seems evident (that pesky word again) that you are not the strict biblical constructionist that most of my questions/arguments in this thread are more geared to.

Cheers.

I probably am more of a strict biblical constructionist than you think (depending on what precisely you mean by "strict"), but I am careful to segregate my responses. Even though I believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis, that to me is my personal religious view which would not advance any discussion regarding science and origins, were I to try and sneak it in. Not only would it not advance the discussion, it would seriously detract from it and confuse the issues.

On the other hand, conversations go where they go, and questions lead to new questions, so feel free to ask about those specific points if you want.

[Jumbo]

I would hope that if an alien species without any previous contact with us showed up talking about Jesus, that an agnostic would at least take note. He might eventually conclude that said knowledge was based entirely on re-runs of the "700 Club" floating through space right now (I prefer not to think about the fact that if there are alien species, their first impressions of us will be through TV), but I'd hope he'd at least stop and think about it.

I would take serious note, and feel it was a signficant point sliding the scale way over to the side of the Christian belief system. Granted, your funny example points out that after the shock, some questioning would logically follow, but if their "testimony" went back millenia and bore examination it would be very powerful in my mind.

On the other techboy, knowing people of our culture as I think I do, the alien race could come down with a different theology or no theology and the vast majority of Christians would only put up their mental barricades and find a way to deny any impact/relevance to their belief or do whatever mental gymnastics were required to remain unchanging. Just my guess.

[Jumbo]

You mean like on Star Trek TNG episode the chase? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chase_(TNG_episode)

Great episode :laugh:

And I wasn't even a trekker.

[Om]

I saw the post. It wasn't a direct answer as to the question of what you think the discovery of ET life should/would mean to a Christian. Yours may be a simple question out of curiosity of the answer. Unfortunately, as we know, most of the questions to be found in these debates are leading questions designed to sway the outcome. Thus I was curious about your motivation for the question.

To me, the only motivation for participating in this kind of discussion is to broaden my own horizons, by seeking new perspectives on questions I’ve never had answered to my satisfaction from smart people who see life differently. I long ago stopped believing I could (or had any reason to) “change” anyone else’s thinking.

That’s the honest truth.

And, in the interests of full disclosure, there may also, from time to time, be just the tiniest bit of debating gamesmanship involved when I see an argument I find that strikes me as willfully disingenuous. Hey, it’s message board. And I’m only human. 

But through all that, I stand firm behind the honesty of the thought processes and sincerity behind every single word I’ve written here. On subjects like this, I cannot fathom giving anything less.

No one could argue the questions that would be raised if ET's showed up and have no spirituality or have one completely absent any knowledge or belief in the God of the bible.

That’s all I’ve been trying to get to, brother.

I'm not sure how this suppostiton has any relevance as to the question of if God exists.

It doesn’t, to me, unless we’re again defining “God” in the strict biblical sense. If we are, we have all the same questions I’ve been trying to hint at over and over that have not been (and have no) answers today. If not, and we’re talking about “God” as a label for the unknowable Intelligence who might have had a Hand in creating the known universe, we may not be on the same page exactly, but we’re definitely at least reading from the same book now.

Making up a possbile future scenerio in which the outcome really precludes the possibility of the Christian God really fixes the answers.

I’d ask you to believe that was not and is not my intent. I’m asking questions, not making suppositions. If my questions are misleading or poorly crafted, my apologies and I’ll look to tighten them bad boyz up going forward.

[BlueTalon]

Oh man, I have to ask ...

"Not to be disparaging" implies a certain, shall we say, personal distancing from that line of thought. Can you tell me why? What is it about the idea of ascendacy that you find troubling, or at odds with your beliefs, or utlimately, any less believable?

I put Mormonism in the category of pseudo-Christian cults. It is something that claims to be Christian, and uses all the vocabulary of Christianity -- but when analyzed, its tenets are very much at odds with historical mainstream Christianity. The person of Jesus, for example, is God incarnate whether you are talking about Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, or any of the Protestant derivatives. In Mormonism not only is Jesus not God incarnate, he is the spirit-brother of Lucifer, the devil. In the Bible, we are saved by grace through faith, and not of works, but in Mormonism, we are saved by grace after all we can do. And that list can go on and on...

When the Mormon missionaries come to your door, and if you agree to talk to them, they will step you through the book of Mormon and eventually ask you to pray with them. But Mormon theology isn't found in the Book of Mormon, it's found in Doctrine and Covenants, which is a book they don't share with you until later.

I think you get the idea. I can go on at length on this topic, and I can certainly answer any more questions you might have about this, but that might be more suitable for another thread.

(edit) I just re-read your post, and you were asking me specifically about the ascendancy. Biblically, God has always been who he is, and since he created humanity, he certainly couldn't have ever been a man. That puts me at odds at least with the Mormon version of ascendancy, which claims God used to be a man. On the greater question of human ascendancy, I like the idea (having superpowers is every kids dream!), but I just don't see it happening. We might extend the life expectancy by a few years with medical advances, and we'll certainly develop new technologies, but that's about the extent of any ascendancy that I expect.

[Mister Happy]

I actually agree with you, that if a cell can evolve into a human, then humans could probably evolve into something higher in a few million years. And if life could spontaneously come into existence here, than it probably could also spontaneously come into existence in many other places as well.

However, you began with the word "If". And it's really begging the question to talk about evolution as a decided fact, and speculate about what humans will evolve into or where other life might have spontaneously originated, when you can't address the evolution of a glop of mud into a living cell, no matter haw many chemicals and elements you dump into the pond. You're free to believe it, of course, but it's disingenuous to call it anything other than a belief or speculation.

I never said evolutionism is right. I only said that even if it is, it doesn't necessarily rule out the existence of a higher power.

[techboy]

I lay out some of the stark differences between Moromonism and orthodox Christianity in this post of this thread, and some discussion/debate with a (perhaps lapsed?) Mormon follows, if anyone wants to follow that further.